Heroes - Spike & Anya

I don't want to pick one over the other, because I think they were both pretty damn heroic.
Still, let's look at their positions. Spike was in love with Buffy. He wasn't going to not help her, let her die, etc. But Anya...I mean, she could have used the "Xander left me!" as an excuse and left. Nobody would have been surprised. But she didn't. She didn't always get along with these people, Xander had hurt her terribly, but she was willing to die beside them, fighting.
I guess I'm leaning a little towards Anya.
 
Everyone in that fight was a hero! Just for actually showing up, willingly taking the risk of maybe not coming out alive.
Yet Anya is a special case still. She was one of the few who actually had the choice of staying or leaving. Buffy and Faith pretty much had to stay, slayer duty and everything, same goes for the potentials. The rest of the Scoobies was more or less also bound there because of Buffy (even though they had a choice, like Dawn, but yet the fact that they were close to Buffy kept them there), Andrew might have been able to leave but was officially a hostage...you see where I'm going with this.
This started already when she became human again (when everyone already knew something evil was coming, bad time to be fighting on the side of the good), but same goes for later. I especially remember her little hospital speech. She could've run, but she decided to stay.
 
They were both heroes, they really are. And I do agree with FOTW that Anya had more reasons to not take part in the fight, which makes her in a way much more of a hero. But consider Spike here for a second: He knew he was going to die, when the lights were coming all out of his body but he didn't run. He could have, because the cave was already starting to fall apart. He could have taken the chance that the Hellmouth almost completely collapsed and save his ass. But instead he stayed to make sure there would be nothing left and die while doing it. That's also pretty heroic. But I don't know if it makes him more of a hero than Anya. IMO, they were both great (although there's only one of them I would like to cover in chocolate)
 
pffft. I just dont see how Spike did anything heroic. He just stood there and let the little trinket do all the work. He had nothing to lose, really, because Buffy already said (paraphrasing) their time together meant nothing. Once the world was safe he knew Buffy would have went on to bigger better things and left him behind anyway. Just as she cast Angel away when he came back to help. Explain how Spike was heroic, someone, please.
 
That's a point but come on, even if he would have lost Buffy anyway, he could have still saved his ass and run, start a life somewhere else etc. But he didn't do that, he chose to die so the people he loved (Buffy, but I guess also Dawn and the rest) would be safe. So everyone living in or around Sunnydale would be save. If didn't care, and ran, he would be lame and cowardish. Instead he saved the world, even though the girl he did it for didnt really love him (or maybe she did, who knows ^^) That's very hero-like, imo
 
itsxpaperdoll said:
even if he would have lost Buffy anyway, he could have still saved his ass and run, start a life somewhere else etc. But he didn't do that, he chose to die so the people he loved (Buffy, but I guess also Dawn and the rest) would be safe.
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That's crap.. throughout the ENTIRE season he was either begging Buffy to kill him, draping himself from a cross, or doing something that could end his (anti)-life whenever Buffy spurned him.

He couldnt go start a life somewhere else; if he didnt get Buffy he wanted to die. He didnt run because he was (blank)whupped and couldnt stand the thought of a life without her. He didnt 'save the world' to be heroic, he did it to save himself from his grief.
 
I don't really get why some people say that Spike wasn't heroic because he just stood there and let the amulet do it's magic. Two points I want to make. Firstly, if Spike HAD known that he was going to give himself up, it doesn't make him any less of a hero. And if he hadn't known, it just makes it heroic as well. Anya and Spike, and everyone in the final fight, actually, was a hero. By giving himself up to save the world Spike completed his hero's journey and while his return to Angel seemed to have cheapend his sacrifice at first, it wasn't his fault that he was brought back.
 
Just depends on how you view it; I see it as his wanting to escape, as would be par with his character, and you (and others) see it as wanting to be a hero. His actions during one season of Angel proved to be more 'heroic' than his actions on Buffy.
 
scobro said:
Just depends on how you view it; I see it as his wanting to escape, as would be par with his character, and you (and others) see it as wanting to be a hero. His actions during one season of Angel proved to be more 'heroic' than his actions on Buffy.
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Someone (Drew Z. Greenberg, I believe) said that season 7 for Spike was all about his hero's journey.
 
Ellyce said:
Someone (Drew Z. Greenberg, I believe) said that season 7 for Spike was all about his hero's journey.
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So? what does that matter to me? I dont need to be spoon-fed (no offense to the member of the same name!) what I am supposed to see and feel. I asked how YOU can explain it as being heroic, not how Drew explained it. I just fail to see heroism in his actions.
 
Well, it's different. Think about it. It's like saying that Joss doesn't understand his characters best at all. There aren't 50856856 writers for Buffy, there's a limited number, and I think everyone that was on the show and wrote and worked there really understood the characters best. Also, since the writers always sat down and talked about stuff, this is definitely something that they would've talked about, and probably why they said that in the overview.
 
Ellyce said:
Well, it's different. Think about it. It's like saying that Joss doesn't understand his characters best at all. There aren't 50856856 writers for Buffy, there's a limited number, and I think everyone that was on the show and wrote and worked there really understood the characters best. Also, since the writers always sat down and talked about stuff, this is definitely something that they would've talked about, and probably why they said that in the overview.
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But it's not about that; it is about how you interpret it. Just like when looking at a piece of art. Does it really matter what the artist had in mind when he composed it? No. It matters the reaction it makes within you. It can be a somber piece yet, uplifting to you, that doesnt negate it's worth in your eyes does it? Because the artist 'meant' it to be somber?
 
It's true that we're free to interpret it however we like it, however, if the writers or Joss said it, it makes it more reasonable and confirms your thoughts about it. (Well, for me, anyway). But to each his/her own, I suppose.
 
^ News reporters don't invent the news, though.

While I agree that writers probably know the characters best, it's equally true that the characters and the entire story are up to the viewers' interpretation. So if someone thinks Spike isn't a hero, it means it's just as valid and true as someone's opinion that he is one.

Personally, I think Spike is a hero. He could have just killed himself, had he wanted an escape that badly. It wouldn't have been hard, a simple walk through the park at noontime would have done it. Sure, he just slipped on an amulet and let it do its work...but being burned up does sound extremely painful. He didn't know what exactly would happen, yet he put it on anyway. He sacrificed himself to save the world. That sounds like a pretty elaborate way to *just escape*...I don't see how this act can't be considered heroic.
 
B
Blair Waldorf-Bass
Well said! (:
white avenger
white avenger
News reporters may not "invent" the news, but they most certainly do quite often slant the facts to conform with their own beliefs and opinions.
^ Creating a story isn't the same thing as reporting about one. Sure, newscasters put a slant on whatever they're reporting...they don't INVENT whatever they're reporting.
But anyways, that's not the point, as I was mostly agreeing with you.
 
palabravampiress said:
They were both heroes. They both chose their souls. They both fought even though they knew what they risked. They both died trying. Heroes.

I think they were equally heroic. The fact that Spike came back doesn't lessen his sacrifice. I mean, is Buffy's sacrifice at the end of season 5 any less heroic because her friends ripped her out of Heaven? I don't think so. He didn't *know* he'd come back. For that matter, we don't *know* for sure that Anya will never come back, either. Everyone who fought was a hero. Those who made the ultimate sacrifice, well, I think their actions speak for themselves.
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Exactly. Also want to add that Spike didn't just stand there wearing the amulet and let things happen. The amulet did its part yes, but Spike finished it. Spike did not have to stay and close the hellmouth. As soon as the amulet worked its mojo and blasted those rays that instantly killed all the ubervamps, that was enough to end the fight at hand, he could have gone up those stairs with Buffy and not died. He chose to stay behind and "finish it."

But yeah, Anya, just as much the hero that Spike was during that fight, for all the reasons already stated.
 
ItMustBeBunnies
ItMustBeBunnies
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To be honest, everybody was a hero in Chosen... except the bad guys. LOL No one was less of a hero than the other.
 
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