When Giles and Buffy find out that Jenny knew about Angel's curse, they are angry. Was this justified or should they have forgiven her (sooner)?
Hot Topic: Were Giles and Buffy justified in being angry with Jenny?
- Thread starter Buffy Summers
- Start date
The Bronze
Rogue Demon Hunter
Jenny was withholding vital information about a major threat to the safety of everyone Buffy and Giles cared about, and as it turns out, the rest of the world on top of that.
While Jenny obviously had her reasons and loyalties, it doesn't change what happened. They were absolutely right to be angry and had no obligation to forgive her at all.
While Jenny obviously had her reasons and loyalties, it doesn't change what happened. They were absolutely right to be angry and had no obligation to forgive her at all.
Wildfly
Also i am not completely sure Jenny knew Angel may lose his soul. If i remember correctly, she was told by her walking stereotype of an uncle to keep Bangel apart and ensure Angel'd continue suffering?
Both Buffy and Giles had the right to be angry at her, but for different reasons.
I think when Giles called her out on her 'betrayal' in Passion he meant 'I trusted you and you deceived me. You approached us under false pretenses, acting all helpful and nice, to spy on us. you used my feelings for you to promote your own agenda.' I think that's why in Passion Jenny apologizes to Giles and that's why she says she loves him. To say that her feelings were sincere, that Jenny is real, while explaining her motivations and her background.
His anger is certainly not solely about Jenny withholding info.
To be fair, Angel's transformation shouldn't have been such a big surprise. A souled vampire is not the most stable being, a spell or some drug could set him off. After all he has a demon in him and he is extremely powerful.
So to blame Jenny and act if her lack of warning is the cause for all their troubles is a bit too much.
Especially because Giles, as Buffy's watcher should have been more aware of the dangers Buffy (both as the slayer and as a 17 year old schoolgirl) dating Angel could face. He could have researched more about Angel's curse and the potential dangers it entailed. Instead, he preferred to ignore the situation altogether. He is good with ignoring.
The simple fact of Jenny haven't shared all her info with the scoobies isn't that revolting - the scoobies also not in the habit of sharing all their info with others, even with people who are in potential danger.
Just one example - in the same episode Buffy complains to Giles that Angel entered her house while they slept. She was panicking and wanted to warn Joyce. Instead, Giles advised her to suck it, not to tell Joyce and wait patiently for him to came up with a solution and was chavalier about the whole situation, saying she should just ignore Angel.
Right. Ignore a psychotic murderer who has free access to the house Buffy and Joyce live. That is also witholding information from a potential victim, Joyce.
I think when Giles called her out on her 'betrayal' in Passion he meant 'I trusted you and you deceived me. You approached us under false pretenses, acting all helpful and nice, to spy on us. you used my feelings for you to promote your own agenda.' I think that's why in Passion Jenny apologizes to Giles and that's why she says she loves him. To say that her feelings were sincere, that Jenny is real, while explaining her motivations and her background.
His anger is certainly not solely about Jenny withholding info.
To be fair, Angel's transformation shouldn't have been such a big surprise. A souled vampire is not the most stable being, a spell or some drug could set him off. After all he has a demon in him and he is extremely powerful.
So to blame Jenny and act if her lack of warning is the cause for all their troubles is a bit too much.
Especially because Giles, as Buffy's watcher should have been more aware of the dangers Buffy (both as the slayer and as a 17 year old schoolgirl) dating Angel could face. He could have researched more about Angel's curse and the potential dangers it entailed. Instead, he preferred to ignore the situation altogether. He is good with ignoring.
The simple fact of Jenny haven't shared all her info with the scoobies isn't that revolting - the scoobies also not in the habit of sharing all their info with others, even with people who are in potential danger.
Just one example - in the same episode Buffy complains to Giles that Angel entered her house while they slept. She was panicking and wanted to warn Joyce. Instead, Giles advised her to suck it, not to tell Joyce and wait patiently for him to came up with a solution and was chavalier about the whole situation, saying she should just ignore Angel.
Right. Ignore a psychotic murderer who has free access to the house Buffy and Joyce live. That is also witholding information from a potential victim, Joyce.
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The Bronze
Rogue Demon Hunter
My recollection was that she knew a fair amount of the curse details but hadn't realised Buffy and Angel had got to that stage. I thought she was monitoring the situation but failed to intervene in time. I'd need to check that though.
Uncle Enyos says something to her in the computer lab about "if he has one moment of happiness...", so it seemed like she knew.
The Bronze
Rogue Demon Hunter
I found it. Jenny in Innocence:
So she didn't know the details just that it was important, read dangerous. The sort of thing that probably should be mentioned when dealing with Angelus.
Seems like uncle was a bit vague on purpose. Jenny may have thought he meant "if he has one moment of happines ..." (then - our vegenance failed or something like that.)
Just Googled it and Jenny says after Buffy questions her:
"I didn't know what would happen until after. I swear i would've told you."
I believe her.
I think she saw her mission as being a weapon of revenge. To keep Bangel apart. To prevent him being happy and such.
Her being secretive somewhat reminds me of Tara. They both hid their family history and background, they both deceived the scoobies.
Tara sabotaged one spell and did another harmful one.
Yet the scoobies forgave Tara quickly, i think on the 'no harm no foul' principle.
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Totally right - she approached them with an agenda, and even after she got attached to them (mainly to Giles), and saw Angel and Buffy getting closer together, she didn't say anything. Her uncle was an old-fashioned gipsy, full of anger and wanting only revenge; she was a woman from the 20th century, informed and open minded. She should have accessed the situation better - which would have saved her own life.
Mr Trick
Scooby
I see both sides of this, but actually have a lot of a sympathy for Jenny. She had no way of knowing before hand that she would form such an attachment to Giles and the Scoobies or even know for that matter what Angel would mean to Buffy. She didn't know the specifics of the curse and did her best to make amends later (and ulitmately did, if from the grave). Not to mention that the conflict she must've felt being caught between her family and Giles/Buffy. I can see why Buffy and Giles were both angry, but I do think they should have thought more about Jenny's side of things and forgiven her sooner than they did.
Valjavertjinn
I am, I am, I am.
I think that they were totally justified in being angry, given that she withheld (even if it was inadvertently) information that resulted in the loss of Buffy's boyfriend.
Even so, I don't think they needed to be quite so harsh about it. Jenny didn't know all the details, and she was trying to find a balance between staying loyal to her family and her new connections in Sunnydale. Plus, if they thought it through, Jenny was in a lot of danger with Angel on the loose. She was related directly to the people who first cursed him, so it would make sense that he'd be gunning for the person most likely to have the means to put his soul back. If Buffy and Giles had put away their anger long enough to realize what a target she was, they might have been able to circle the wagons and at least keep her alive, even if they were grumpy with her.
Even so, I don't think they needed to be quite so harsh about it. Jenny didn't know all the details, and she was trying to find a balance between staying loyal to her family and her new connections in Sunnydale. Plus, if they thought it through, Jenny was in a lot of danger with Angel on the loose. She was related directly to the people who first cursed him, so it would make sense that he'd be gunning for the person most likely to have the means to put his soul back. If Buffy and Giles had put away their anger long enough to realize what a target she was, they might have been able to circle the wagons and at least keep her alive, even if they were grumpy with her.
I think it was a bit unfair of them to judge her. One, as mentioned, she didn't truly know what she was doing. And secondly, she did everything out of allegiance to her family. She went in thinking she was keeping track and watching a vampire with a soul that tortured and murdered her family, on paper, it 100% sounds like it's the right thing to do. I do think that Jenny believed she was helping her family, and that she was helping keeping Angelus at bay. One moment of happiness can be interpreted in so many ways, I don't think she necessarily thought something literal would happen. It almost sounded like her mission was simply to keep Angel unhappy, which makes sense with the grudge her family had against him.
I think the one mistake she made is not coming clean earlier. Once she realized she was falling for Giles, once she realized who Angel really was, and who the Scoobies really were, she should have approached them about it. I can see why she didn't. Sometimes you get stuck into something and you don't know the way out, and you just dig your own grave deeper and deeper.
I still think they should have forgiven her sooner. Giles should have sat down with her and had a serious talk. As for Willow and Xander, and even Buffy, it felt like they were mad at her out of allegiance to Angel, and to Giles. That is exactly what Jenny herself was doing by following her family. Two wrong don't make a right. Also, they should have worked together to solve the problem. Had they done that, Jenny would likely still be alive, and they would have restored Angel's soul much sooner. Jenny was their most powerful tool to fight Angelus, and they stayed mad at her out of hurt and pride.
I think the one mistake she made is not coming clean earlier. Once she realized she was falling for Giles, once she realized who Angel really was, and who the Scoobies really were, she should have approached them about it. I can see why she didn't. Sometimes you get stuck into something and you don't know the way out, and you just dig your own grave deeper and deeper.
I still think they should have forgiven her sooner. Giles should have sat down with her and had a serious talk. As for Willow and Xander, and even Buffy, it felt like they were mad at her out of allegiance to Angel, and to Giles. That is exactly what Jenny herself was doing by following her family. Two wrong don't make a right. Also, they should have worked together to solve the problem. Had they done that, Jenny would likely still be alive, and they would have restored Angel's soul much sooner. Jenny was their most powerful tool to fight Angelus, and they stayed mad at her out of hurt and pride.
Just a thought about the whole gypsy curse and Jenny's family: one of the gypsies said that wasn't justice that they served, it was vengeance. And it was vengeance against Angelus - and only Angelus - the one who killed "the most beloved daughter" of their tribe.
Spike was the one who killed an entire tribe (or family, at least), Darla killed the leader of them and Dru probably killed someone at the encampment - and no gypsy bothered to curse any of the three vampires or hunt them for that matter. But the remaining clan kept an eye on Angel, to make sure he would suffer forever.
Centuries of dedicated hate because of some special girl whose life was considered more valuable than others. I'm with Ilona from Italy: the gypsies are filthy people! We will speak of them no more!
Spike was the one who killed an entire tribe (or family, at least), Darla killed the leader of them and Dru probably killed someone at the encampment - and no gypsy bothered to curse any of the three vampires or hunt them for that matter. But the remaining clan kept an eye on Angel, to make sure he would suffer forever.
Centuries of dedicated hate because of some special girl whose life was considered more valuable than others. I'm with Ilona from Italy: the gypsies are filthy people! We will speak of them no more!
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It would, but I think her specialeness came from her "blue blood"...
Blaze
I def need to rewatch that arc, I don't remember much from it
Mr Trick
Scooby
This is something I need to watch out for on a rewatch because I don't remember much judgement being shown from Willow or Xander. I know that Willow had a bound with Jenny because of them sharing the interest in computers. Also I don't think Xander ever had any allegiance to Angel, least of all that this point.
Well I'm pretty sure Angelus did his fair share of killing outside of just that one person. Bet his numbers stack up😉
gite63
But the vengeance was only about that one girl...
cryptwarmer
I'm in charge of morale!
Jenny's relationship with the Scoobies was fairly new. At what point do we realign loyalties? Do you abandon a story, situation, grudge your family has held for generations because some young gal has what is essentially a really creepy relationship with one of the world's most notorious vampires? Hmmm. Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but seriously, any high school teacher who wasn't seeing major red flags with Angel's obsession with a 16 yr old, isn't doing their job.
That aside. Angel was a broody SOB. How does one interpret what is going to equate a moment of true happiness for a guy like him? He doesn't even seem all that happy around Buffy. He loves her, is obsessed with her, likes making out with her, but I'm not seeing him skipping through flower filled fields because he's met the girl of his dreams. Again I say...we are talking major creep factor that the thing that is going to make Angel lose his soul is having sex with a 17 yr old girl. Would Giles or Buffy have thought that might be the thing? Giles didn't have the heads up ahead of time, but I don't think he would have told Buffy not to get jiggy with Angel for THAT reason.
Yet, after the fact it's Jenny's fault? Hmmm.
It would have been awesome if Jenny had told them what she knew, ultimately I don't think it would have kept a 17 yr old love struck gal from celebrating her birthday by loving up her boyfriend. So, taggin Jenny with all the blame was short sighted.
That aside. Angel was a broody SOB. How does one interpret what is going to equate a moment of true happiness for a guy like him? He doesn't even seem all that happy around Buffy. He loves her, is obsessed with her, likes making out with her, but I'm not seeing him skipping through flower filled fields because he's met the girl of his dreams. Again I say...we are talking major creep factor that the thing that is going to make Angel lose his soul is having sex with a 17 yr old girl. Would Giles or Buffy have thought that might be the thing? Giles didn't have the heads up ahead of time, but I don't think he would have told Buffy not to get jiggy with Angel for THAT reason.
Yet, after the fact it's Jenny's fault? Hmmm.
It would have been awesome if Jenny had told them what she knew, ultimately I don't think it would have kept a 17 yr old love struck gal from celebrating her birthday by loving up her boyfriend. So, taggin Jenny with all the blame was short sighted.
I think what bothers me the most is that by priciple I'm not keen of people who hold grudges, least of families that hold it for centuries, and raise their children to hate and seek vengeance. Jenny, being an informed woman, could have questioned the whole thing, thus preventing her own death, maybe.
I believe she did question it to some extent, or else she would have been more like Holtz, blindly hating vampires and trying to get revenge. She didn't seem all that revengeful to me, but wanting to keep a vampire at bay only seems logical. She had only known Angel for maybe a year, and he's a pretty mysterious guy. It wasn't a bad idea to keep and eye on him. If anything, it was actually quite logical. Aside from that I agree.
The irony of this whole thing is that, by that point, the one who would want the most to be certain that the soul stayed put was Angel...
I did think they were justified. I always thought that Jenny was a little hypocritical with her treatment with Giles. Only weeks before she had made him feel awful for putting her in danger and she had been withholding information which was equally as dangerous.