Hot Topic: What are the moral implications of Lorne's behavior in Life of the Party?

[gite63]

As for the consequences of said event, this would depend on how both felt about the situation. The reason this is distinct from what Faith did to Riley is because there is no real perpetrator here, so it falls more upon how traumatized Angel and Eve felt. No one disregarded anyone elses consent so if Eve and Angel were not really bothered by it, I don't think it needs to be addressed in the same way that if Xander had been killed for example.

This.

Lorne didn't do it on purpose or with malice; Angel and Eve didn't get affected by it. Do you think a experienced vampire would have any issue about having had sex with a hot chick behind a couch? I don't think so. And Angel didn't. I go for what the characters feel, my feelings about the matter are not relevant. If the sex had happened with Fred - that would have been another issue, entirely - Lorne still should not be blamed, but the relationship between him and the gang would be certainly hurt.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I don't disagree that Angel & Eve didn't seem affected, but playing devil's advocate - past sexual experience doesn't preclude feeling victimized.

 

[thetopher]

Also people can do bad things by accident and still be morally culpable for their actions. Lorne did something mystical without fully understading the affects and ended up controlling people's minds and then hulking out and endangering people. Imo it's not better than what Willow did in 'Something Blue'.
In fact didn't Lorne kill somebody at the party during his 'roid state? Is that not considered bad because Lorne had 'good' intentions?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Lorne did something mystical without fully understading the affects

But not just that.. it was that he did it with an evil law firm that for years they treated as the enemy. That's a big difference in my mind. If he had just done a spell that could stop him from getting sleepy or what not, that would be one thing, but he got into the proverbial bed with the enemy. That's what made it worse.

 

[gite63]

I don't disagree that Angel & Eve didn't seem affected, but playing devil's advocate - past sexual experience doesn't preclude feeling victimized.

Certainly not; but in this particular case, the wronged party didn't feel that wronged, ant that's what matters.
 

But not just that.. it was that he did it with an evil law firm that for years they treated as the enemy. That's a big difference in my mind. If he had just done a spell that could stop him from getting sleepy or what not, that would be one thing, but he got into the proverbial bed with the enemy. That's what made it worse.

Well... who was the one who made the deal with the evil law firm? Angel, so everybody there have their piece of responsibility. And if I remember well, Lorne didn't make a deal like Gunn did, he went to the firm's storage and took something for his trouble. In Angel: After the Fall, it is said that W&H had a big storage where the most diverse "medicines" could be found - Wesley even used some to help an injured Angel. All drugs can have side effects - but most of us really don't give it much consideration when said drug will free us of some really bad condition.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Well... who was the one who made the deal with the evil law firm? Angel

That's slightly askew. They all made the choice independently. The only one that did not agree to work with them was Spike.

 

[gite63]

That's slightly askew. They all made the choice independently. The only one that did not agree to work with them was Spike.

Yeah, they were all in the same boat willingly... and as the consequences of the whole thing weren't serious, why would Lorne beat himself over it? I really don't remember about the guys in the pooper... were they humans? Well, they probably were lawyers... I mean, evil.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I really don't remember about the guys in the pooper... were they humans? Well, they probably were lawyers... I mean, evil.

It was the Archduke's bodyguard. The guy that was wearing the Pylean jacket.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Certainly not; but in this particular case, the wronged party didn't feel that wronged, ant that's what matters.

What I'm saying is, the fact that they had had lots of sex and therefore surely wouldn't mind one more person part shouldn't come into it - that the two of them weren't bothered by it is enough.

🙂

 

[gite63]

What I'm saying is, the fact that they had had lots of sex and therefore surely wouldn't mind one more person part shouldn't come into it - that the two of them weren't bothered by it is enough.

🙂

But people are shaped by their life experiences - and that's why Angel and Eve responded to the whole thing as it not being a big deal. I'm talking about these respective characters, not about the moral or intellectual concept. For Angel and Eve sex wasn't an issue - and good for them.

 

[Kana]

Let's frame this differentely. If the consequences are inconsequential, then without a real pepetrator, I don't really see it as a real moral issue. So what? If they were to deal with the aftermath, then what? Brood about it, selfishley and indulgently and not to mention pointlessly? If neither one were affected and there was no real perpetrator, then move the f*** on! If we are asking about the potential dangers of moving to W&H then that is a different and more general question and needs to be framed as such!!!

 

[Buffy Summers]

If you don't like how the question was framed, then start a new thread that suits you better.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

If neither one were affected and there was no real perpetrator

But there was a perpetrator- Lorne. Whether he did it maliciously or not, he was still the perpetrator as he forced them to do it.
You nevek know how Angel was affected as he said he didnt know how he felt. And you honestly don't know how Eve was affected; she never said she was fine, just it was not the first time she had sex under the influence, that doesn't mean she was happy about it. Further, how well do you think Lindsey would have taken the news had he found out his squeeze, yet again, was sleeping with Angel.

EDIT:
Also if they dealt with it and discussed it maybe Gunn would not have been so quick in accepting his upgrade. You could say that Lorne and company were implicit in what happened to Fred because of their inactions to address one deal with the devil thereby silently giving approval for Gunn to make his own.

 

[Kana]

But there was a perpetrator- Lorne. Whether he did it maliciously or not, he was still the perpetrator as he forced them to do it.

It wasn't even that he didn't do it maliciously. He didn't knowingly do it all. Without intent, I fail to see the moral implications.

You nevek know how Angel was affected as he said he didnt know how he felt. And you honestly don't know how Eve was affected; she never said she was fine, just it was not the first time she had sex under the influence, that doesn't mean she was happy about it.

Well this is the problem isn't. We could structure a nebulous, directionless conversation about all the things they may have felt. Which without a knowing perpretrator makes it even more meaningless. What do we want here? For Angel and Eve to brood about it? In any respects, we have no evidence it had any lasting effects and without anyone knowingly forcing them to do it (like Faith with Riley) I don't see how it can be taken much further, which is why it's a pretty crap episode.

I mean people liken it to Something Blue, which forshadowed and dealt with how Willow uses magic. In that instance, there is specific context of which we can speak. However the move to W&H and Lorne's general moral ambiguity is a different question, which as Buffy Summers said, should be reserved for a different thread.

Further, how well do you think Lindsey would have taken the news had he found out his squeeze, yet again, was sleeping with Angel.

Haha! Yeah I always wondered that! However, we shouldn't conflate moral implications with overall implications.

Also if they dealt with it and discussed it maybe Gunn would not have been so quick in accepting his upgrade. You could say that Lorne and company were implicit in what happened to Fred because of their inactions to address one deal with the devil thereby silently giving approval for Gunn to make his own.

As I said before that's a broader discussion.

If you don't like how the question was framed, then start a new thread that suits you better.

I wasn't trying to be rude. I have no issue with the question itself, but if posters wish to discuss the general implications of "dealing with the devil" then I agree they should start a thread on it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

directionless conversation about all the things they may have felt.

Or the things they may not have felt such as the point you are making. No one knows what they felt which is which why it's a valid discussion. If you say they did not feel anything, I can just as easy say they did, because no one stated what they felt.

I just do not think that because there was no intent that he should be absolved. Granted his 'crimes' would be greater if there were malice behind them, but ignorance is no excuse.

 

[bespangeled]

The action we see in that episode is that Lorne had had his sleep removed, which may have been the starting point for this "ability". There is no sign that he saw any consequences to anyone other than himself. This is similar to an X-Files show about an elite military unit that had done the same thing - eliminated sleep from their lives. After a while, in peacetime, they regretted the effect it had on them.

Yeah - as a former teacher one of the things I really have trouble getting across is most disasters do start as accidents. Most of them are not meant, or even foreseen. Most disasters happen because someone does something dumb, and then there is some sort of fallout.

Buffy sleeping with Spike would have had serious consequences, she would feel like she was violated;

As would he, IMO. He did see it as a perversion at that point. He had recently called it that when having Angel stripped and penetrated with hot, hard....sorry. Tortured.

That's slightly askew. They all made the choice independently. The only one that did not agree to work with them was Spike.

They made the choice independently but had their memory wipe immediately after. No idea what was wiped - but it could well have factored into serious buyer's remorse early on. If they don't remember Connor - well, there's a lot forgotten.

What I'm saying is, the fact that they had had lots of sex and therefore surely wouldn't mind one more person part shouldn't come into it - that the two of them weren't bothered by it is enough.

They were - or Angel was. Just watched You're Welcome, Eve threw it in Angel's face in front of Cordy, and he was distinctly uncomfortable. I think she did that a few other times. It gave her some power.

Also if they dealt with it and discussed it maybe Gunn would not have been so quick in accepting his upgrade. You could say that Lorne and company were implicit in what happened to Fred because of their inactions to address one deal with the devil thereby silently giving approval for Gunn to make his own.

Yup - gotta agree here. Never saw it that way before though.

t wasn't even that he didn't do it maliciously. He didn't knowingly do it all. Without intent, I fail to see the moral implications.

You drink the drinks - you take the pills - you are responsible.

 

[Bluebird]

Life of the Party is a weird episode in tone. I agree with most that Lorne isn't directly responsible for Angel and Eve having sex since he wasn't aware of the consequences of having his sleep removed. But what he was responsible for was having his sleep removed in the first place.

Lorne was always the non-judgmental seer who would try to avoid getting involved in people's destinies. I had a lot of respect for showing that character trait on screen so well. AtS is so dark and morally ambiguous at times, we need Lorne to try to make sense of it. As he said, he can see both sides. For him there is only grey, which helps him make sense of the world for us. In contrast, Kate was not very adept at this, as the world was revealed to be a more complicated place than she first thought.

Season 5 Lorne makes some choices that to against his stand-back approach to life. Making a personal deal with W&H, either not thinking or caring about the guaranteed consequences, and agreeing to murder Lindsey for Angel. I think he was very lost by the end of the show.