How did you feel about the way Riley left?

[EffyStonem]

If you're going by comments the characters make in the vein that Riley made them, Buffy is just as sexist as Riley is, if not more. I mean, take this comment:

"Giles: It acts on pure instinct. No conscience, predatory and aggressive. Buffy: In other words, your typical male."

Does this make Buffy a male-hating jerk? If you take an isolated comment and not the scope of her entire character, it sure looks that way. She says it pretty seriously and only apologizes after Xander calls her on it.

That is absolutely a sexist comment from Buffy and Xander had every right to call her out for it. I don't like gender-based insults or blatant sexism (although everyone is guilty of making sexist comments from time to time). But as you said, she is called on this comment and immediately apologises.

Riley is protective of Buffy, but does that make him different than Angel? He's more overt about it maybe, but Angel is incredibly protective of Buffy, even though she's stronger than him. Does that make Angel misogynistic? Riley has been a big, athletic person for most of his life, and a soldier/secret agent as well. Now he's in a relationship where he's not in that role. It's natural that he's uncomfortable in it. It's a 180 from what his previous experience is.

Being protective of the one you love and feeling threatened by their independence are two completely different issues. I would be fine with Riley being protective of Buffy if that's all there was to it, but there's much more at play.

And Angel (much as I love him and much as I will defend him to my dying days) also has some internalised misogyny, but that's best left for another thread 🙂

I just don't see the desire to protect your girlfriend as an indicator of misogyny (although we seem to have very different definitions of the word).

I never said the desire to protect one's girlfriend was misogynistic.

As another flipped example (which I just thought of now 😛), most typical dating customs expect the guy to pay on the first date, right? Does that mean that if a girl is expecting that she's guilty of misandry?

This isn't an example of misandry, it's an example of patriarchy and the belief that men should be the "bread winners" and the ones to pay. Patriarchy (a different issue to misogyny, although the two are closely linked) affects both men and women, and feminists such as myself try to fight against it and its' repercussions.

And personally, I hate the "Men should pay on the first date" way of thinking.

Riley wants to be in the middle of the action, yes, and at times he goes a little far with that desire, yes. However, if he's on Buffy's team and actively fighting evil with them, which he was, it isn't exactly surprising that he doesn't want to be used in a research capacity. He's been a field agent for years. Of course he still wants to be in the heat of the action. I mean, is that really different than a police officer who is pissed off after being pulled from the street and put behind a desk? Riley has been the field leader pretty much ever since he joined the military. He's used to commanding a unit. It makes sense that he'd want to be in a leadership capacity.

I do agree with you though that he failed to adjust. However, I'm not really sure if the complete destruction of your entire belief system, of everything you believe in and have dedicated yourself to for your entire adult life, of seeing your mother figure and several of your best friends all killed and then brought back as twisted Frankenstein-esque versions of themselves, is something you really get over in a summer. And we see it. He isn't over it. He's way more emotionally and mentally screwed up in S5 then he is in S4, and don't think that's because of Buffy. He may screw up and focus things on her, and yeah, that's on him, but the Riley of S4 wouldn't have done half the things Riley of S5 did. I really believe that. Riley was great for Buffy in S4.

I get what you're saying here, and I think you were right about the timing; Buffy couldn't really be there for Riley in Season 5 because she was dealing with her Mum's illness and trying to be there for Dawn in addition to running the house.

However, I do still think that Riley needed to stop trying to be something he couldn't be anymore. It wouldn't have been an easy adjustment but it would have nullified a lot of his issues in Season 5. As I said before, I can't help but feel that so many of his issues in Season 5 were brought on by himself and his refusal to accept what was.

 

[Yosso]

But it is a factor and that is not good. He is threatened by Buffy's strength and she doesn't need to be putting up with that crap. She deserves someone who will allow her to be as strong and as independant as she wants and not be threatened by that.

I don't see this aspect of Riley's insecurity as sexist though. Imagine Buffy was a dude and Buffy/Riley was a gay relationship. Riley would still feel the same sense of insecurity, not because of Buffy's gender but because the balance of "power" is nowhere near equal. Riley could deal with Buffy being physically strong (just barely), but it was her lack of desire to be emotionally vulnerable in his presence that provoked Riley into being stupid and getting vamp suck jobs. This would apply whether Buffy's a woman, man, humanoid cyborg, whatever.

"Old-fashioned", ie stuck in a time where women were subservient and misogyny was more prevalent than it is today.

I don't like the "he's old-fashioned" explanation, because it provides a screen to hide behind and makes excuses for sexist and/or misogynistic behaviour. And Riley did treat Buffy appallingly towards the end. He cheated on her, blamed all their problems on her and issued her with an ultimatum, putting the guilt entirely on her shoulders at one of the most emotionally turbulent times in her life. He's an ass.

Riley being misogynistic makes little sense when we also see him taking orders from Professor Walsh. Who happens to have female parts. He respects her authority and mourns her death.

But like [MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION] said, the blame is both ways and I don't think it's fair to put all the blame on Riley when Buffy wasn't exactly being the greatest of girlfriends at the time.

However, in Season 5 he seems to have gotten past it. He's adjusted somewhat to civilian life and he seems to be doing alright. All his issues in Season 5 seem to come from the fact that he's not "Action Guy" anymore, therefore his girlfriend is doing all the heavy lifting, something he is not comfortable with due to his views on gender and masculinity.

What heavy lifting? Do you mean dealing with Joyce? Riley tried to get Buffy to open up to him about Joyce several times, to be vulnerable, to cry and release and frustration she might have. She declined. That's not Riley's fault. Buffy chose her own "heavy lifting", Riley was always there to help. I think most of his desire to help is to feel valued, again a basic human need regardless of gender.

Re the meaning of misogyny. At the simplest, most basic level, yes misogyny means the hatred of women. However, misogyny covers a much broader spectrum of prejudices, negative attitudes and feelings towards women, from slut-shaming to violence against women. It is not just an extremist issue.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/opinion/15herbert.html?_r=0

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/30/casual-sexism-misogyny

http://www.thenation.com/article/164947/misogyny-killing-my-generation#

Those should be a good starting point. They all talk about extreme misogyny as well as more subtle misogyny.

But these articles are all opinion, non-objective sources. It's not a definite proof.

I think these are all examples of sexism, but not always misogyny. Slut shaming etc isn't necessarily due to hatred of women, especially as other women frequently slut shame one another. But I digress.

That is absolutely a sexist comment from Buffy and Xander had every right to call her out for it. I don't like gender-based insults or blatant sexism (although everyone is guilty of making sexist comments from time to time). But as you said, she is called on this comment and immediately apologises.

Would you label Buffy's comment as misandry, just out of interest?

 

[EffyStonem]

No, I wouldn't class Buffy's comment as misandry. It's sexism and generalisation.

 

[Yosso]

I say this with all respect, but I don't think you're being particularly fair to men. You claim that Riley's remarks are misogynistic, but Buffy's more sexist remarks aren't misandry.

I agree that Buffy's comment is not misandry, but I also think that Riley's comments aren't misogyny.

 

[EffyStonem]

Riley's remarks are not generalisations, such as "all women can't control their emotions." They are direct references to the fact that he seems to believe that women should be weaker than men and that he is threatened by the fact that his girlfriend doesn't fit this mould. He is displaying a negative attitude towards women, not playing on a sexist cliche.

I am not being "unfair to men". We are talking about one character and one relationship. There are plenty of examples over BtVS and Ats where I have issues with how the male characters are treated and I come down harshly on women. This just happens to be an instance where I believe that the male character is in the wrong, so I am harsher with him.

 

[Yosso]

I say you're not being fair to men because you're criticising Riley, as a man, and in the context of his relationship to Buffy, as a woman. Your argument that Riley is a misogynist is fundamentally based on Riley's position as male in the relationship.

Also, the first quote from "The Initiative" that you mentioned is Riley making a vast generalisation that women need protecting with his simple answer of "yes". Which, by the way, I don't think is nearly as scathing or loaded with any negative feeling towards the opposite gender compared with Buffy's "your typical male" line. It's quite matter of fact and neutral, even in Marc Blucas' delivery of the line.

Riley doesn't believe women should be weaker than men, he just thinks that they are. There's a difference there, the latter being less sexist than the Riley you believe.

I definitely don't agree he's displaying any negative attitude towards women, as I've explained. He's just ignorant and and is playing on a sexist cliche, which I believe I've proved with evidence.

I don't really see how the examples you've chosen show Riley as a misogynistic arse, your posts imply that Riley is acting slightly out of malice towards Buffy partly because she's a woman. I don't see that at all.

Edit: and woo, 50 posts! 😀

 

[EffyStonem]

Alright, you don't see it. Whatever. We're going around in circles. You won't change your opinion, I won't change mine. I'm out.

 

[fredthe3rd]

One of my favourite quotes from UK panel quiz/comedy 8 Out of 10 Cats:

Two thirds of all car accidents are caused by men. You know what that means don't you?
A third of them are caused by 'bloody woman drivers'.

 

[JReed1985]

Easy answer

When Riley left I was relieved, I was like, "now things can go back to normal" Riley became excruciatingly boring as a character I was happy he left.

 

[Robb Stark]

Thinking about it a bit more (funny how thoughts come to you about dormant threads sometimes), Riley never says or even really implies that he thinks women should be weaker than men, he just says that physically they are. In most cases, that isn't exactly wrong. But I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't have a problem with women having authority over him. I mean, he believes wholeheartedly in Professor Walsh until she's revealed to be a huge nut case. He follows her pretty much to the letter.

I think Riley's problem was that he wanted someone who was far more emotionally available than Buffy had the capacity to be when she was with him. Between her Mom and the fallout of Angel she just didn't have that in her at the time. I don't think that's a reflection of Riley having any hugely sexist predispositions.