How did you react when Willow killed that Bambi?

[zobothehobo]

Aww, but that's a piglet. That said, I am very much of an animal person myself, and also very much opposed to the blackness of magic needed for a human to purposefully bring back the dead in a setting like this one. I'd still say my argument stands, though, I doubt Willow killing, ok - a full grown hyena (nevermind that it would put up rather a fight, I'm just thinking cute factor here - than something that we are conditioned to consider cute.

Chosen Enemy, I am not picking on you for choosing the word "Bambi", quite the contrary. I'm just pointing out that the fact that the choice of animal has a bearing on how we react to a scene like that.

I get what you're saying... i think. But I think a pig (which was your first example) would have brought up a similar reaction. But what if it was a cow? A big, annoying, crapping as it walks cow that honks at you (moos sound an awful lot like car horns). It would still be an "oh my god, Willow just killed that animal" moment without being "WILLOW WHAT ON EARTH HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!?!!?"

---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

What does that prove? Might as well claim that Xander has an actual hole in his heart (something he says after leaving Anya at the altar). Willow expresses guilt here. She doesn't say that it was possible to find out if Buffy was in a heavenly dimension.

It proves that Willow herself knows what she did was selfish. The "we didn't wanna know" is important. They didn't ask. They didn't even begin to try to figure it out... they didn't want answers.. they wanted Buffy back. They pulled her out of heaven without even asking where she was because THEY wanted her back. That was selfish. Willow accepts that here...

 

[Gum Gnome33]

BTW guys there is an interview with Aly Hannigan on Craig Kilbourne from 2001 which I didn't post here because, before she walks out, he shows a clip of just that scene. The second she sits down she's really rattled and says "That's not the best clip to show, I don't think," and later, "There's a *reason* for it." Poor Aly--wanted to discuss her character and her work on the show and that's how he introduces her!

 

[Icarium]

I would have felt the same way about a pig. I can't watch The Pack.

But you are okay watching all the other episodes where humans get murdered?

It proves that Willow herself knows what she did was selfish. The "we didn't wanna know" is important. They didn't ask. They didn't even begin to try to figure it out... they didn't want answers.. they wanted Buffy back. They pulled her out of heaven without even asking where she was because THEY wanted her back. That was selfish. Willow accepts that here...

Willow's prone to self-flagellation. If the writers seriously expected me to believe that none of Willow, Anya, Tara and Xander ever bothered to say 'Hey, you know what? Can't we check if Buffy is in hell first" then my opinion for S6 sinks even lower. I didn't think that was possible.

 

[The Unspoken]

It proves that Willow herself knows what she did was selfish. The "we didn't wanna know" is important. They didn't ask. They didn't even begin to try to figure it out... they didn't want answers.. they wanted Buffy back. They pulled her out of heaven without even asking where she was because THEY wanted her back. That was selfish. Willow accepts that here...

WILLOW: Buffy didn't die a natural death. She was killed by mystical energy.
TARA: Which means we do have a shot.
WILLOW: It means more than that. (to Xander) It means we don't know ... where she really is.

Why don't they know? Because they can't, it's impossible to find out because of the circumstances surrounding Buffy's death.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

WILLOW: Buffy didn't die a natural death. She was killed by mystical energy.
TARA: Which means we do have a shot.
WILLOW: It means more than that. (to Xander) It means we don't know ... where she really is.

Why don't they know? Because they can't, it's impossible to find out because of the circumstances surrounding Buffy's death.

But they didn't say they couldn't know, they say they didn't want to know (in the quoto zobo gave). They didn't want to check first. Where does it say that they couldn't? That scene clearly stated that they ignored other options because they didn't even try.

 

[Tome]

Everytime I see that scene, I'm a lil disturbed. Willow was the last person I'd have expected(at the time) to kill an innocent animal.

 

[The Unspoken]

But they didn't say they couldn't know, they say they didn't want to know (in the quoto zobo gave). They didn't want to check first. Where does it say that they couldn't? That scene clearly stated that they ignored other options because they didn't even try.

If the implication was any clearer, it would probably gouge your eyes out. Willow's statement in 'Bargaining' is pretty much A leads to B, Buffy's death through mystical energy means by default that they don't know where she is, i.e. they can't know. Her later statement in 'Tabula Rasa' is self-flagellating in nature and should not be taken literally. If taken literally however, it contradicts the genuine horror Willow expressed at the thought of Buffy being stuck in a hell dimension. There was nothing selfish about that.

But whatever. You'll have to forgive me for not thinking the Scoobies are a bunch of sociopaths (well, apart from Anya 🙂).

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Ok, first, about the fawn. I don't think it was out of character for Willow to kill it. I think she'd have hated herself for doing it, but I definitely see her making that sacrifice for Buffy by this point. I also have no problem with them using it as a component of the resurrection spell. You see that kind of thing all the time on Angel - Lilah's constantly referring to sacrificed goats or firstborn. We even see a virgin sacrifice in Season 4.

This was different from Forever. This was a real resurrection. You just can't do that with some herbs and candles. It set the tone for just how serious this magic was. They needed to take a life to restore a life. If there hadn't been this scene, or one of equal force, the stakes wouldn't seem so high. This is something we've NEVER seen the Scoobies do, and I think that was important.

About what Willow knew; I think she knew the risks that Giles talks about. There's no way she could have known where Buffy was, that much was made quite clear. There is absolutely no way none of the Scoobies would have raised that question. Plus, we've never heard about heaven dimensions until now. All they knew was that Buffy had been ritually killed, where her soul was stripped from her body as she passed the gateway into Glory's hell dimension. I think it's perfectly understandable for them to think she's in hell. We've seen no indication that you can just pick up a Ouija board and speak to dead people in the Buffyverse, so I don't know how you can assume that they could check where she is.

What Willow can be blamed for is risking everything that Buffy died for in the first place. Also, I want to be clear, each of the Scoobies who didn't do anything to try and stop the resurrection - read: all of those who were in Sunnydale - are just as much to blame. They were young, they were scared, and they missed their friend. But they all knew exactly what they were risking here, Willow most of all. Buffy had died to protect the world from hell, but they risked re-opening similar portals to bring her back.

Like Giles said, they were lucky. He understood, it's utterly tragic that Buffy was dead, and it means that Sunnydale will suffer. But that's how it goes. One slayer dies, another is called. Whether or not that means they'd have to rely on Faith or a new slayer is irrelevant - it wasn't worth risking the safety of the entire world.

It was an entirely selfish act, but it wasn't Willow's alone, and the selfishness had nothing to do with where Buffy was.

 

[zobothehobo]

If the implication was any clearer, it would probably gouge your eyes out. Willow's statement in 'Bargaining' is pretty much A leads to B, Buffy's death through mystical energy means by default that they don't know where she is, i.e. they can't know.

How is that i.e. at all true? I don't get it. "I don't know" is a very different statement than "I can't know." Example: I, personally, don't know off the top of my head what temperature it is outside right now. I could go find out by looking it up. I don't know, but I could know. Willow and the others didn't even ask if they could know at all. We don't know if they could have found out because THEY don't know that. And if they do, we were never told or shown that. So going on the assumption that they couldn't know is ridiculous because they COULD HAVE at least tried or asked. But they didn't. Because as Willow said, they didn't want to know. They wanted Buffy back and therefore, were going to believe she was in hell and they were doing a good helpful thing bringing her back. They didn't want to even entertain the idea she could be in heaven because that would have meant they had to deal with her being dead. And they didn't want to do that... hence the selfishness.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

^^^^
What Zobo and Lindsey said.
And it was cruel and unnecessary for the writers to include a fawn in their arbitrary spell ingredients. We could have understood the magnitude of bringing a human back to life without such imagery.

 

[Aloverssoulz]

I HATE it. I think it's the worst scene in the whole show. I always skip it when I watch that eps.

---------- Post added at 01:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 AM ----------

I would have felt the same way about a pig. I can't watch The Pack.

Same. I too can't watch the Pack because of that >.<

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I think if Willow and Tara can try to find Buffy's essence when she and Faith traded bodies, they could've tried to locate Buffy's essence in the afterlife.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

I honestly don't get the objection to the writers choosing to use a fawn. It didn't really get hurt. It might not be pleasant to watch, but that's entirely the point, isn't it? It's not like it was overly graphic.

 

[Icarium]

They wanted Buffy back and therefore, were going to believe she was in hell and they were doing a good helpful thing bringing her back. They didn't want to even entertain the idea she could be in heaven because that would have meant they had to deal with her being dead. And they didn't want to do that... hence the selfishness.

You really believe Anya at least wouldn't have been curious whether Buffy was really in hell? The others might have been too grief-stricken to think straight (although I so don't buy it that for months none of them would ever bother to ask that question) but the idea that Anya, who knows a lot about other dimensions would just go with the flow if there was any way of checking seems quite weird to me. Same with Giles's claim that the entire world was in danger because of the ritual - Anya would never have gone along with such a plan, she likes the world way too much. If you want to believe everyone in the group was that stupid - go ahead. But don't expect me to agree when there is another explanation which is just as supported by canon as yours.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

You really believe Anya at least wouldn't have been curious whether Buffy was really in hell? The others might have been too grief-stricken to think straight (although I so don't buy it that for months none of them would ever bother to ask that question) but the idea that Anya, who knows a lot about other dimensions would just go with the flow if there was any way of checking seems quite weird to me. Same with Giles's claim that the entire world was in danger because of the ritual - Anya would never have gone along with such a plan, she likes the world way too much. If you want to believe everyone in the group was that stupid - go ahead. But don't expect me to agree when there is another explanation which is just as supported by canon as yours.

Yeah, I think people often forget that months have passed. They might not have wanted to face the question, but it'd have been asked. Willow probably didn't go searching for a way to find out where Buffy was in the same way as she did a way to resurrect her, but if there had been anything she'd known about she'd have tried it. There's really nothing to suggest that there is any way of finding that out though, and assuming there is would be groundless, and goes against their character.

I see no reason to dismiss Giles' warnings though. Willow was incredibly reckless, and I doubt she ever told anyone how dangerous the ritual was. They probably all knew, but like they say, they didn't want to face it. Anya's an interesting one, but she's utterly in love with Xander by this point, and I think she'd be willing to risk any of the dangers he suggests to see him happier. She's not exactly rational when it comes to him. She's selfish above all else, but Xander is part of that self now. Moreover, she's used to being able to do hugely powerful things like this. I don't think she ever really understood the differences.

 

[Icarium]

I don't see why you are assuming Giles would know more about resurrection spells than Anya, Willow and Tara. He didn't even know what kind of spell was used, he directly jumped to "the world was in danger". Plus, it makes no sense on a purely world-building level. If it was so easy to destroy the world, no one would have bothered with Acathla and the likes and resurrection spells wouldn't be in every other book of magic. Giles's whole rant in Flooded is a bunch of nonsense that tries to use his position as the group mentor to show us how far Willow's power trip had gone. Stupid idea and an even stupider execution, IMO.

 

[zobothehobo]

You really believe Anya at least wouldn't have been curious whether Buffy was really in hell? The others might have been too grief-stricken to think straight (although I so don't buy it that for months none of them would ever bother to ask that question) but the idea that Anya, who knows a lot about other dimensions would just go with the flow if there was any way of checking seems quite weird to me. Same with Giles's claim that the entire world was in danger because of the ritual - Anya would never have gone along with such a plan, she likes the world way too much. If you want to believe everyone in the group was that stupid - go ahead. But don't expect me to agree when there is another explanation which is just as supported by canon as yours.

Yes, I believe Anya was probably curious. But are you really suggesting without any sort of canonical evidence we're supposed to just BELIEVE that Anya tried to figure out where Buffy was. We have no mention of it, we have no "we don't know where she is, and we can't find out," we don't see it... We have no evidence that that may have happened. I'm sorry, but I'm the type of person who hears the story I'm told and that's that. We weren't told in any sort of way (not even an implied way) that anyone did any sort of anything to try and figure out where Buffy was. So why would I believe that they did?

And just out of curiosity... what is this other explanation that is just as supported by canon? That Anya and the others looked it up and tried to figure out where Buffy was? How is that supported in canon other than what you think the character probably would have done (which by the way, isn't canon). You have said on more than one occasion that the later seasons are all OOC (I don't agree, but you obviously do, because you said it). So why would this be different?

Also, I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me. Just so you know. Your post kind of made it sound like I was saying "agree with me or else" which is totally in no way what I was trying to say at all.

And one last point, I don't believe the characters are or were stupid. But they were selfish and they acted without being completely informed. I think they didn't want to be informed, which is why they did that. And I understand it completely.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

I don't see why you are assuming Giles would know more about resurrection spells than Anya, Willow and Tara. He didn't even know what kind of spell was used, he directly jumped to "the world was in danger". Plus, it makes no sense on a purely world-building level. If it was so easy to destroy the world, no one would have bothered with Acathla and the likes and resurrection spells wouldn't be in every other book of magic. Giles's whole rant in Flooded is a bunch of nonsense that tries to use his position as the group mentor to show us how far Willow's power trip had gone. Stupid idea and an even stupider execution, IMO.

Hmm, I see your point. I'd also forgotten about Tara. I still think that performing that ritual then failing to control the forces it unleashed would definitely have killed Willow, probably the rest of the Scoobies, and I'm sure Sunnydale would have suffered. Giles was probably overstating it a bit, but I doubt his argument was baseless. He was trying to scare her, trying to get something other than arrogance.

I also think that it's less to do with the particular ritual or spell that Willow carried out and more to do with the branch and darkness of the magic that Giles was concerned about. I mean, there's not going to be a spell for white witches to do the same kind of thing. It was serious dark magic, and Giles has done nothing but learn about the wielders of that his whole life. Moreover, it was clear that she could quite easily have brought something seriously bad back with Buffy.

The argument about people not having to resort to schemes like Acathla is valid, but that's kind of a flaw in the very nature of this kind of fiction. If you're going to have characters who can bend the rules, and you need those rules bent to get over something like a dead character, you're going to weaken them. Sometimes the dramatic outcome is worth it, sometimes it just results in a mess. For me, I'm happy to ignore that and appreciate the storyline for what it is, despite any inconsistencies. I liked the scene between Giles and Willow, and I like the idea that such a ritual would be incredibly dangerous. If you're less invested in the storyline or ideas, then I can see why it'd be harder to accept, so I don't think we'll agree on that point.

 

[Icarium]

Yes, I believe Anya was probably curious. But are you really suggesting without any sort of canonical evidence we're supposed to just BELIEVE that Anya tried to figure out where Buffy was. We have no mention of it, we have no "we don't know where she is, and we can't find out," we don't see it... We have no evidence that that may have happened. I'm sorry, but I'm the type of person who hears the story I'm told and that's that. We weren't told in any sort of way (not even an implied way) that anyone did any sort of anything to try and figure out where Buffy was. So why would I believe that they did?

Because at the time of the resurrection their IQ wasn't measured in single digits...yet. There is never any explanation why nobody thought of a curse for Angel without the loophole either. Does that mean they never even considered the possibility or that they did and found out that they couldn't make such a spell work? Canon doesn't say but I prefer the explanation which makes the characters less stupid, not more. The notion that four very smart and curious people (especially Willow and Anya) would say "Buffy could be in heaven" but never bother to think where else she might be simply doesn't work for me.

The argument about people not having to resort to schemes like Acathla is valid, but that's kind of a flaw in the very nature of this kind of fiction. If you're going to have characters who can bend the rules, and you need those rules bent to get over something like a dead character, you're going to weaken them.

The good writers don't need to break their own rules to get from point A to point B. Heck, in S2 a guy was resurrected without any magic involved, let alone a world-wide apocalypse scenario.

Giles was probably overstating it a bit, but I doubt his argument was baseless. He was trying to scare her, trying to get something other than arrogance.

There is no way Giles was going to scare Willow that way. He either should have stuck to facts or kept his mouth shut. A bogeyman wasn't going to scare Willow, who understandably thought the resurrection a heroic feat of epic proportion. It's not as if Giles was above using dangerous spells himself - see Primeval.

 

[zobothehobo]

Because at the time of the resurrection their IQ wasn't measured in single digits...yet. There is never any explanation why nobody thought of a curse for Angel without the loophole either. Does that mean they never even considered the possibility or that they did and found out that they couldn't make such a spell work? Canon doesn't say but I prefer the explanation which makes the characters less stupid, not more. The notion that four very smart and curious people (especially Willow and Anya) would say "Buffy could be in heaven" but never bother to think where else she might be simply doesn't work for me.

I think they probably did think "Buffy could be in heaven" and that's exactly why they didn't even try. They didn't want to know. If Buffy was in heaven, they would have to let go and let her be dead. They would have to deal... they didn't even ask because they didn't want to face the possibility that she could be in heaven. And therefore, resurrecting her wouldn't be the best thing.

And I see no evidence that they looked for a spell to give Angel his soul back without the happiness clause, so it didn't even phase me that people may think they did that. If the writers wanted us to think they did that, they would have told us they did in some way... even if it was just a passing remark. But they didn't, because the characters didn't do that. Maybe they did in your personal canon that makes the show more enjoyable... but to everyone else, the official canon... they did not.