How do you feel about the Angel IDW comics?

[Robb Stark]

Extending beyond just "After the Fall" (which I really enjoyed, but has a lot of discussion related to it in its own section). I'm reading through them for the first time right now and I'm really, really liking them. Admittedly, "Aftermath" wasn't great, but "Last Angel in Hell" was hilarious. All the Angel-Spike stuff was just nailed perfectly. I just finished "Immortality for Dummies" tonight, and really enjoyed it too.

I liked that they identified that Angel and Spike are somewhat unique from other vampires in the sense that a soul restoration won't necessarily work for every vampire. I know it doesn't make a world of sense when you analyze it, but it ties up a pretty big plot hole of "why doesn't Willow just restore the soul of every vampire". I can live with "Angel and Spike are unique". However, one thing I didn't like was that apparently vampires have Wolverine-like regenerative powers, because out of nowhere Spike just regrows a severed leg. That seems kind of dumb to me and I don't recall it ever happening before. Kind of hoping they just phase that out in future stories.

Oh, and Connor! He totally rocks! Right from "After the Fall" to where I'm at now, he's one of the best, most interesting characters. I thought he was a little harsh on Gunn, but still, he's pretty cool.

 

[Mischlings]

I tried to read some of them but found myself bored in the second issue following After The Fall. I'm not sure why exactly, but I wasn't all that interested in continuing them. I'll probably treat them like the original series of Buffy comics - they're there if I want new stories, but they're not canonical, so I don't need to read them if they don't draw me in with the writing.

 

[Robb Stark]

I tried to read some of them but found myself bored in the second issue following After The Fall. I'm not sure why exactly, but I wasn't all that interested in continuing them. I'll probably treat them like the original series of Buffy comics - they're there if I want new stories, but they're not canonical, so I don't need to read them if they don't draw me in with the writing.

Yeah, "Aftermath" kind of sucks, no question there. I'd say power through it (or just skip it altogether. Two new characters get introduced, but how it happens doesn't really matter, they aren't that cool anyways), because the following stories are awesome.

And wait, the IDW run isn't canon? Does that include "After the Fall"? And out of curiosity, why are they discounted? They were all released at roughly the same time the Buffy S8 run was produced.

 

[Mischlings]

Yeah, "Aftermath" kind of sucks, no question there. I'd say power through it (or just skip it altogether. Two new characters get introduced, but how it happens doesn't really matter, they aren't that cool anyways), because the following stories are awesome.

And wait, the IDW run isn't canon? Does that include "After the Fall"? And out of curiosity, why are they discounted? They were all released at roughly the same time the Buffy S8 run was produced.

After The Fall is canonical because Bryan Lynch worked with Joss to come up with the plot. Everything else is not.

I might give it a chance sometime later - been doing a lot of comic reading recently - might give it another shot after I finish Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run - just started it recently.

 

[Robb Stark]

After The Fall is canonical because Bryan Lynch worked with Joss to come up with the plot. Everything else is not.

I might give it a chance sometime later - been doing a lot of comic reading recently - might give it another shot after I finish Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run - just started it recently.

This is purely my opinion, take it or leave it, but don't have high hopes for Whedon's Astonishing X-Men. I was pumped to read it and while it's alright, it's very, very overrated. The only truly cool part of it is Kitty Pryde.

I know the Whedon camp had a falling out with IDW over the Angel books, but I've never really understood why. Was there a reason why non of the later stories are counted?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

This is purely my opinion, take it or leave it, but don't have high hopes for Whedon's Astonishing X-Men. I was pumped to read it and while it's alright, it's very, very overrated. The only truly cool part of it is Kitty Pryde.

I know the Whedon camp had a falling out with IDW over the Angel books, but I've never really understood why. Was there a reason why non of the later stories are counted?

I liked Whedons X-Men, It was the first comics I read after I read Buffy (which got me into Comics), I loved it at the start, the found out there was some X-Men stories allot better.
Same with Runaways, loved them when I read them, then realised that some of the other stories were just brilliant!

Well Dark Horse got the rights to Angel, which took them away from IDW, presumably to include more of Angel and the Other Angel characters for Season 9 of Buffy.

 

[The Ferg]

Extending beyond just "After the Fall" (which I really enjoyed, but has a lot of discussion related to it in its own section). I'm reading through them for the first time right now and I'm really, really liking them. Admittedly, "Aftermath" wasn't great, but "Last Angel in Hell" was hilarious. All the Angel-Spike stuff was just nailed perfectly. I just finished "Immortality for Dummies" tonight, and really enjoyed it too.

I liked that they identified that Angel and Spike are somewhat unique from other vampires in the sense that a soul restoration won't necessarily work for every vampire. I know it doesn't make a world of sense when you analyze it, but it ties up a pretty big plot hole of "why doesn't Willow just restore the soul of every vampire". I can live with "Angel and Spike are unique". However, one thing I didn't like was that apparently vampires have Wolverine-like regenerative powers, because out of nowhere Spike just regrows a severed leg. That seems kind of dumb to me and I don't recall it ever happening before. Kind of hoping they just phase that out in future stories.

Oh, and Connor! He totally rocks! Right from "After the Fall" to where I'm at now, he's one of the best, most interesting characters. I thought he was a little harsh on Gunn, but still, he's pretty cool.

After the Fall: 1-17 are 100% canon.

I really enjoyed a few post-AtF comics. I considered these both awesome and these are probably canon because they were written by Brian Lynch.
Spike: After the Fall
23-27. Become What You Are/Drusilla/Boys and their Toys
Spike
Angel:Yearbook

Other IDW I personally consider canon because they're awesome.
Pre-AtF:
Spike: Asylum. Seriously. Read it. (Written by Lynch)
Spike: Shadow Puppets(written by Lynch)
Post-AtF:
Angel: Only Human
Illyria: Haunted

Aftermath sucked and I haven't read but 2 issues of post-AtF Angel. And I thought both were boring. Might read them in the future though

Connors awesome in A&F though.. Makes me want to read Angel 28-44.

This is purely my opinion, take it or leave it, but don't have high hopes for Whedon's Astonishing X-Men. I was pumped to read it and while it's alright, it's very, very overrated. The only truly cool part of it is Kitty Pryde.

I've come to regard your opinions as pretty intelligent and interesting but I supremely disagree with this. Whedon's X-Men is great. One of the best actually. IGN put it in its top 10 X-Men runs.

 

[white avenger]

Beyond "After The Fall," some of the stories were good, but a lot more were only fair, and a few sucked outright. The final Spike arc, which Joss acknowledged as canon, was probably my favorite story line since "After The Fall."

 

[Robb Stark]

I've come to regard your opinions as pretty intelligent and interesting but I supremely disagree with this. Whedon's X-Men is great. One of the best actually. IGN put it in its top 10 X-Men runs.

Thanks for the confidence vote 🙂. And totally, feel free to disagree with me. I can take it. One of the best parts of coming here is engaging in challenging discussion and debate.

Maybe I just built it up too much prior to reading it. I'd heard it was drop-dead amazing, and it just...wasn't. Now, because I don't want to ruin anything and because I don't know how to insert spoiler tags, I'm going to do this in my own highly sophisticated way:

SPOILERS AHEAD
PLEASE DON'T READ ON IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK
ONCE MORE, SPOILERS AHEAD!!!




Okay, hope that worked.

I hated the Danger Room arc. Hated it. I thought the idea of the Danger Room suddenly becoming sentient was really dumb, and that Professor X being the evil mastermind behind it was silly. I get that they really wanted to move Professor X into his own thing and make the X-Men Cyclops' team (which obviously played out in some pretty major arcs moving forward, but it just seemed...silly to me.

I wasn't wild about Colossus coming back either. He's never been a favorite character of mine but I loved his death, the way he went out to cure the Legacy Virus. That was so, so cool. I liked Kitty's reaction to his return (actually, Kitty is the best part of that run. And it's so Joss Whedon in the way it happens, which I loved), and I'm glad to see that Colossus has remained a pretty big part of the Marvel Universe and has been utilized properly, but I was decidedly "meh" about him coming back.

The Hellfire Club stuff...well...I'll start off by saying that I think Cassandra Nova is dumb, and always have thought that. And I've read SO many X-Men stories about "Is Emma Frost going to screw them all over" that it was just tired. All the Breakworld stuff I didn't care much for either.

I'm not trying to rip it to shreds. I know lots of people love it. My brother loves it. It doesn't help that I'm not the world's biggest X-Men fan either. Cyclops bugs me (drives me nuts actually. Cap putting him in his place in A v. X? Loved it) and I've never found any of the supporting characters outside of the core X-Men all that interesting. Maybe that's the heart of it. Whedon or no, I'm not an X-Men guy.

---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------

Beyond "After The Fall," some of the stories were good, but a lot more were only fair, and a few sucked outright. The final Spike arc, which Joss acknowledged as canon, was probably my favorite story line since "After The Fall."

One thing I'm really enjoying about the IDW stuff so far is that the stories fit the character and the feel of what the show was. It's not trying to accomplish too much, which is a problem I feel like S8 of the Buffy books has run into (not saying that S8 is bad, but I think the scale of it, so far from where I am, is hindering more than helping). Obviously "After the Fall" is a massive story, but it fit where the series left off and everything about it clicked brilliantly.

"Last Angel in Hell" and "Immortality for Dummies" really, truly felt like Angel stories. Like they could have been episodes of the T.V. show. I like S8, but my primary criticism of it is that it feels nothing like the BTVS series, and aside from the way they talk from time to time, most of the characters feel different too. I don't get that from the Angel books. Angel and Spike feel like Angel and Spike. Their humor, their chemistry, it's exactly like it should be. The only really different character is Connor, but they improved him in every way possible.

 

[The Ferg]

SPOILERS AHEAD
PLEASE DON'T READ ON IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK
ONCE MORE, SPOILERS AHEAD!!!




Okay, hope that worked.

I hated the Danger Room arc. Hated it. I thought the idea of the Danger Room suddenly becoming sentient was really dumb, and that Professor X being the evil mastermind behind it was silly. I get that they really wanted to move Professor X into his own thing and make the X-Men Cyclops' team (which obviously played out in some pretty major arcs moving forward, but it just seemed...silly to me.

I wasn't wild about Colossus coming back either. He's never been a favorite character of mine but I loved his death, the way he went out to cure the Legacy Virus. That was so, so cool. I liked Kitty's reaction to his return (actually, Kitty is the best part of that run. And it's so Joss Whedon in the way it happens, which I loved), and I'm glad to see that Colossus has remained a pretty big part of the Marvel Universe and has been utilized properly, but I was decidedly "meh" about him coming back.

The Hellfire Club stuff...well...I'll start off by saying that I think Cassandra Nova is dumb, and always have thought that. And I've read SO many X-Men stories about "Is Emma Frost going to screw them all over" that it was just tired. All the Breakworld stuff I didn't care much for either.

I'm not trying to rip it to shreds. I know lots of people love it. My brother loves it. It doesn't help that I'm not the world's biggest X-Men fan either. Cyclops bugs me (drives me nuts actually. Cap putting him in his place in A v. X? Loved it) and I've never found any of the supporting characters outside of the core X-Men all that interesting. Maybe that's the heart of it. Whedon or no, I'm not an X-Men guy.

Well... I can't really argue with you I guess... Dangerous wasn't the greatest arc, and Joss has actually acknowledged this. I don't really like people come back from the dead, but I didn't have anything from Colossus to go off of. This was my first 616 X-Men book. Can't say anything about the "Emma screwing over" bit... Cyclops is my favorite superhero ever, so I don't really understand the hatred of him. Joss put him through the ringer and he came out stronger, and learned something about his past. And the last arc is so great!! As we all know, Joss has a knack for making every character relatable and fun and he did just that. I would go into each character but... I don't want to..

One thing I'm really enjoying about the IDW stuff so far is that the stories fit the character and the feel of what the show was. It's not trying to accomplish too much, which is a problem I feel like S8 of the Buffy books has run into (not saying that S8 is bad, but I think the scale of it, so far from where I am, is hindering more than helping). Obviously "After the Fall" is a massive story, but it fit where the series left off and everything about it clicked brilliantly.

"Last Angel in Hell" and "Immortality for Dummies" really, truly felt like Angel stories. Like they could have been episodes of the T.V. show. I like S8, but my primary criticism of it is that it feels nothing like the BTVS series, and aside from the way they talk from time to time, most of the characters feel different too. I don't get that from the Angel books. Angel and Spike feel like Angel and Spike. Their humor, their chemistry, it's exactly like it should be. The only really different character is Connor, but they improved him in every way possible.

I completely agree with you here. When I read IDW's Angel's dialogue I can picture Boreanaz saying it, with Angel inflections and everything. In DH S8-present it just seem like they're new characters almost. Which is fine.. it's cool that they made a different feel to the series and characters. Buffy and co. might sound different, but they are very much the same characters.

 

[Robb Stark]

I'm two issues into "The Crown Prince Syndrome" and I for those who haven't read it, they make a VERY funny reference to the Twilight storyline in BTVS S8. You can tell that the producers of IDW didn't think a whole lot of Angel's role in S8.

SPOILERS:

I thought it was kind of strange that they turned James evil and killed off Dez so fast. I guess people really didn't dig them, which makes sense. They did kind of suck. Both were products of the much-maligned "Aftermath" arc which was just brutal.

 

[Robb Stark]

I had a question I was hoping someone could clear up for me.

I'm on the final story of the Angel IDW stuff, but I'm a little unclear about the continuity of it. Spike pretty clearly references Twilight and Angel's role in it (without directly saying so), and I wasn't sure if S8 of BTVS counts for IDW-Angel. I've heard people say that this stuff isn't canon.

 

[Kean]

The only IDW Angel comics that are canon are Angel: ATF issues 1-17 and issue 23. They are the only stories that had direct involvement from Joss. The Spike: ATF issues are bit up in the air because while Lynch had Joss's blessing to write them, it isn't clear if Joss was directly involved. None of the other issues are canon. However, Joss and DH have said that they while they won't legitimise the IDW issues as canon, they won't do anything that interferes or contradicts what IDW have been doing. Personally, I think the actions of Angel and Spike in S8 and S9 do contradict what we see in IDW, but there isn't any outright jossing.

 

[The Ferg]

I had a question I was hoping someone could clear up for me.

I'm on the final story of the Angel IDW stuff, but I'm a little unclear about the continuity of it. Spike pretty clearly references Twilight and Angel's role in it (without directly saying so), and I wasn't sure if S8 of BTVS counts for IDW-Angel. I've heard people say that this stuff isn't canon.

Well technically canon in the Buffyverse strictly means "with-Whedon-involvement." So 1-17 is canon. That's it. Not 23, not Spike: After the Fall, and not Spike.

With that being said, Whedon has said that Lynch's Spike series is canon, so sure, add that to canon.

I consider anything written by Lynch canon, because none of it contradicts anything. Gunn's Epilogue, Drusilla, Boys and their Toys, and Spike: AtF.

 

[xfivebyfive]

I love the Angel series. After the Fall and everything after Aftermath were really good. I don't care if they aren't canon they're a million time better then Buffy s8 which was written by Joss. So yeah.

 

[The Ferg]

You guys seem to think pretty highly of Angel post-AtF. I honestly couldn't get any farther than the first two issues... But I'm kinda thinking I should go back and try it out again. :/

 

[Robb Stark]

You guys seem to think pretty highly of Angel post-AtF. I honestly couldn't get any farther than the first two issues... But I'm kinda thinking I should go back and try it out again. :/

It's just "Aftermath" that really sucks. Past that, almost every story is good. And I don't think "Aftermath" was that well received either. They pretty much undo or radically change everything they set up in that story arc.

I had a question, for those who've read the books obviously, about the tail end of "The Wolf, The Ram, and The Heart", when Angel is visiting the White Room, he speaks with...someone...who morphs into a number of different W&H employees Angel has had encounters with over the years. He talks to the impersonation of Lilah and says that he knows who he's really talking too, and that it isn't Lilah. Is it just The Conduit, that weird cat Gunn used to talk to in S5, but in a different form, or was it someone else?

Anyways, I've finished the Angel IDW run (haven't read the Spike and Illyria stuff though), and overall I really, really liked it. I was a little surprised at the direction Illyria went in towards the end though. I really liked her in "After the Fall" and the relationships she'd developed with Spike, Angel and the rest, but this was quite a departure from that. I'm assuming they're going to build on it in her own mini-series.

 

[Buffy Summers]

You guys seem to think pretty highly of Angel post-AtF. I honestly couldn't get any farther than the first two issues... But I'm kinda thinking I should go back and try it out again. :/

We'll be doing it after Season 9 in our reread if you want to join in. I didn't get very far the first time around either so they will be new to me as well 🙂

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Well technically canon in the Buffyverse strictly means "with-Whedon-involvement." So 1-17 is canon. That's it. Not 23, not Spike: After the Fall, and not Spike.

According to what Brian Lynch said, issue #23 and the Spike: AtF miniseries both also came out of the same discussions with Joss that 1-17 came from, which is why I consider them canon.

I sort of consider Spike: Asylum to be canon, just because in AtF it's clear that those events happened. But Joss had nothing to do with the actual writing of that, so I wouldn't consider individual dialogue and stuff to be canon... just the general chain of events.

The Spike miniseries had Joss's involvement to the extent that the origin of the Bug Ship came from him, and he also checked over the issues that had Willow in them. But apart from that I'd put it in the same category as Spike: Asylum.

As for the post-AtF stuff, I read all of it (except for the various side miniseries) and didn't care for much of it. I did think that a few interesting characters appeared in it, though, such as Desdemona and Laura Weathermill, who would have been worth keeping around.

 

[The Ferg]

We'll be doing it after Season 9 in our reread if you want to join in. I didn't get very far the first time around either so they will be new to me as well 🙂

Oo definitely! What exactly are you reading from Angel? And where is this thread?

[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]
Yea Aftermath sucks, no doubt about it.

[MENTION=8509]AndrewCrossett[/MENTION]
I wasn't aware of Joss' involvement in Spike: AtF or 23. My bad. I personally consider Spike: Shadow Puppets and Asylum canon. Both are great stories.