How Many Times Did Buffy Die?

[Kean]

The only reason I have the theory is because Buffy simply didn't die in PG, that is all, and at least that theory then ties all the otherwise loose ends up.

Without it there is an aching chasm of 'well she didn't die, so how did the line pass on'.



I don't see how you can easily dismiss medical fact because it interrupts a good story. We're on, what I like to call, 'Charmed Ground'.
What is it that I am really rejecting?
That Buffy died?
Thats not such a big thing. I have given a very plausible way around it using real world medical knowledge that lets us keep the whole Slayer line moving AND the ability for Xander and Buffy to say Buffy died twice.

As for the Giles quote, to come from such a learned man is appalling and only adds to my frustration in this matter.
Buffy could not have been physically dead as no amount of CPR would bring her to life, it would take medical intervention.

Ok I know I'm edging towards Joyce denail land with the medical stuff. I just don't like the implications it has on the whole 'One dies...' theory. As well as that, it was prophcised that she would die. I know the CPR was very Baywatchesque but I would rather take that with a pinch of salt than change the whole slayer mythology as it was presented to us.

 

[Schillaci]

Blood is the key, my children. Take your time. Those insightful enough will get there.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

I am agreeing with BotD here. I wrote my senior paper on death (steps of recovering from a family member/loved ones death, the debates on what it means to die, and how you can exactly tell when someone is dead.

It's always hard to determine when somebody is dead. Is it the absence of a heartbeat? Is it the absence of brain activity? The absence of breath? I always viewed death as being completely irreversible by all means, medical or otherwise. If CPR is performed on someone, they did not die, because they were able to be revived. It's just being 'near death'

It should be that Buffy was so near to death that the 'essence of the slayer' moved on, assuming that the current/previous slayer was going to perish. If nobody had given her CPR, she would have most likely died. Maybe the slayer line has to be passed on before the actual complete death, or it can't jump to the next chosen one?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Ok I know I'm edging towards Joyce denail land with the medical stuff. I just don't like the implications it has on the whole 'One dies...' theory. As well as that, it was prophcised that she would die. I know the CPR was very Baywatchesque but I would rather take that with a pinch of salt than change the whole slayer mythology as it was presented to us.

So do they take that she died because it was prophesied she would or was it prophecied because whoever saw the future saw her die?

Prophecies are very tricky things.

Plus, if you think about it, we're not the ones who changed Slayer mythology, Whedon is. Granted he had a hand in creating it but we are told that one must die for the next to live yet Buffy contradicts that because she isn't dead.

What I am merely doing is finding a way to marry the stuff that is obviously inaccurate while keeping up with the lore.

How does the Slayer line pass on to its next victi...I mean Slayer?

Does it wait till the Slayer has died, check it's pulse then move on OR isn't it possible that it is a concious part of the demon that raped the First Slayer that decides not only who the next Slayer is, but when the old one karks it?

If that is the case, if it is down to judgement on this being, then could it not be ever so slightly wrong?

I don't think that changes the Slayer mythology at all.

 

[Kean]

So do they take that she died because it was prophesied she would or was it prophecied because whoever saw the future saw her die?

Prophecies are very tricky things.

Plus, if you think about it, we're not the ones who changed Slayer mythology, Whedon is. Granted he had a hand in creating it but we are told that one must die for the next to live yet Buffy contradicts that because she isn't dead.

What I am merely doing is finding a way to marry the stuff that is obviously inaccurate while keeping up with the lore.

How does the Slayer line pass on to its next victi...I mean Slayer?

Does it wait till the Slayer has died, check it's pulse then move on OR isn't it possible that it is a concious part of the demon that raped the First Slayer that decides not only who the next Slayer is, but when the old one karks it?

If that is the case, if it is down to judgement on this being, then could it not be ever so slightly wrong?

I don't think that changes the Slayer mythology at all.

I know you are trying to provide plausible alternatives, thank you sir for that but I seem to have this need to reject them.

Ok I'll stop being a child now and accept that Whedon done it arse ways, not the first time, won't be the last. I think I could go along with your essence transference theory, like you said it maintains the line and is the most plausible.

Your First Thoery, how does that pan out?

 

[Blondie Bear]

Wow, I go away for an hour and all heck breaks loose.

I stand by my above theory.

 

[The Chosen]

Dunno if this helps, but: Clinical death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Buffy died a "clinical death" and there's an article on it. I found it kinda interesting and IMO it sheds a new idea on the whole topic. Just sayin'...

 

[alexa]

Of course she died twice.. depends how you want to define death. But it's canon.. so that's pretty much that.
The death that people argue happened in Bad Girls seems so ridiculous to me 😛

I think it's more interesting that when Buffy comes back to life she's a slayer once more.
The power doesn't really move on, so much as it gets shared. Suppose it has to or Buffy would be a very different show.

 

[TrueVengeance]

I went back and watched Villians earlier tonight. It didn't actually show it flatline, just made the beeping sounds that it would've. But all the machines were malfunctioning when Willow came in, so why is this one any different? I don't believe she flat-lined at all 😛

 

[Allycat]

What a thread. I wanted to reply, but most insightful things have already been said. I completely agree with BotD and the writers on this one. Dead in PG and the Gift. In Villains, it was just Darth Rosenberg causing the machines to flip. Buffy also died in the Wish obviously, but that was a different person.

I have one little nitpick about something in this thread though.

once the heart stops beating a person is clinically dead, regardless of how long her heart remained unbeating she was dead for those few seconds.

My dad has a heart rhythm dysfunction, meaning his heart sometimes skips a beat. Does that mean he's died like a thousand times?

 

[Kemy]

I have a family inherited congenital Heart defect, and as such it does tend to skip, falter, flutter, or thud awkwardly from time to time.

By your logic, one Sunday two weeks ago I was "dead" 7 times for a fraction of a second.

Death is the complete cessation of all neuro-synaptic functionality in the Brain. Even becoming a vegetable of a person with their Heart entirely supported by mechanical aid (life support machine) and as little as 10% Brain functionality of a normal person is still alive.

I don't think the very spirit or fragmented soul of a Demon that could not die even after its mortal body had been torn apart by the Shadow Men to capture its essence would be so flighty as to leave a Slayer when the Brain was fully active and the Heart had only just stopped.

Her flatlining in Season 6 may not be considered death, since those machines have a threshold value of measuring the Heart, that below a certain intensity of beat it stops measuring and gives the "flat line" whereas the electric nodes of the Heart may still be receiving nerve impulses, and the muscles are myogenic, continuing for 11 minutes without external impulses.

So even though the machine gave that readout, there was still somewhat of 6-11 minutes for her to be revived normally. So she wasn't dead that time.

So yes, her death in Season 1 is very questionable since its a similar near death experience.

And umm, sorry for rambling.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Obviously I agree with your medical stuff as I have argued so frequently that I don't count the PG death as death, however the theory I have put forth does work within hence why I am about to question one part of your reply, Kemy.

I don't think the very spirit or fragmented soul of a Demon that could not die even after its mortal body had been torn apart by the Shadow Men to capture its essence would be so flighty as to leave a Slayer when the Brain was fully active and the Heart had only just stopped.

The fragmented Slayer demon, maybe a piece of Demonic Soul - what if it has even the smallest amount of conciousness?

It is trapped in the Slayer until the point of death but then moves on - unless it has the ability to determine whether death is going to happen.

In Buffy's case, she was on the brink of death, the essence could easily have 'decided' that the Slayer was a lost cause, hence its need to jump to the next Slayer. When Buffy 'drowned' she wasn't surrounded by friends, she didn't have anyone to help her so it is possible this essense(if we for a moment give it conciousness) made the judgement call to move on.

I think we have to go back and study Get it Done.


Ohh and Allycat - you're going to make me blush!!

Edit:

isnt CPR medical intervention?

CPR is an aid to keep the heart beating when the heart has stopped and keep oxygen flowing when the lungs have stopped.

All these TV shows that show someone regaining heart and lung activation from CPR are showing a very incorrect message - but thats because TV you don't have the time for an ambulance and defib machine and all that malarky.

If you ever do a First Aid course, the first thing you are told is that the moment you start CPR you will be doing it until the proper equipment arrives.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I agree with Keanoite, when the heart stops beating the person is clinically dead, thats not something for everyone to try and prove wrong - that is a fact, your considered clinically dead.

So I do think she died in PG.

I don't think she died in Villians, but I don't think it flat lined because of Willow, the heart machine can show a flat line but the heart is still beating, it's just not beating enough for the machine to pick up on.

 

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I don't think she died in Villians, but I don't think it flat lined because of Willow

Everything else in the ER went wild when Willow walked in, though. What's your reasoning there that the monitor was a different situation?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Everything else in the ER went wild when Willow walked in, though. What's your reasoning there that the monitor was a different situation?

Because everything else went on and off but the heart monitor stayed on, it just showed a flat line on the screen. Why would the energy from Willow cause everything else to switch off and back on again, but the monitor wold stay on but just change the display?

 

[slayerpower]

Even if you don't consider drowning real death, the show does. The drowning activated another Slayer, something that only happens when a slayer dies. And I don't think flatlining is real death. Patients flatline all the time in hospitals and doctors don't call time of death until after they realize they can't revive the patient.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Even if you don't consider drowning real death, the show does. The drowning activated another Slayer, something that only happens when a slayer dies. And I don't think flatlining is real death. Patients flatline all the time in hospitals and doctors don't call time of death until after they realize they can't revive the patient.

This is so contradictory it is unbelievable.

If flatlining doesn't warrant a 'time of death' than Buffys drowning CERTAINLY doesn't.

See, what I am reading here is that people so blindly follow the 'word of Joss' that they immediately dismiss common sense and actual natural law because saying Joss is wrong is akin to a Christian saying Jesus didn't exist.

This is a sad state of affairs.

Hero worship is all well and good people but seriously it shouldn't make you so blind as to ignore facts!!!!

 

[Black Eye Guy]

This is so contradictory it is unbelievable.

If flatlining doesn't warrant a 'time of death' than Buffys drowning CERTAINLY doesn't.

See, what I am reading here is that people so blindly follow the 'word of Joss' that they immediately dismiss common sense and actual natural law because saying Joss is wrong is akin to a Christian saying Jesus didn't exist.

This is a sad state of affairs.

Hero worship is all well and good people but seriously it shouldn't make you so blind as to ignore facts!!!!

Yes but Clinical Death is a fact, if the heart has stopped beating then clinically she was dead, so from that and the fact that a new slayer was activated that leads me to believe her heart had stopped and thats what called the next slayer.

And I already said what I though about Villains above,. But it's got nothing to do with blindly following what Joss has said.

 

[anyatara]

I'd say Buffy died twice, since that's generally a 'known fact' I'm not gonna argue with anyone. I just see the first death as an actual death but I don't see the death in Villains as a death...or the one in The Wish...or the one in Normal Again...😛

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Yes but Clinical Death is a fact, if the heart has stopped beating then clinically she was dead, so from that and the fact that a new slayer was activated that leads me to believe her heart had stopped and thats what called the next slayer.

And I already said what I though about Villains above,. But it's got nothing to do with blindly following what Joss has said.

And as many people in this thread have attested to, they would fall under clinical death on occasion but they aren't dead.

If the Slayer line can't differentiate between ACTUAL death and a moment the heart stops(which isn't death - Clinical Death is the name GIVEN to this event doesn't actually mean it is DEATH) then over the course of the Slayer's life(all Slayers) there would have been more than one incident when a Slayer was activated while another was alive.

You're making the BIGGEST mistake by bleating on with the term Clinical Death because this isn't actual death.

Just because some man gave this event a name that has death in it DOES NOT MAKE IT SO.

This is where people are losing it and thinking it is something else.

No death occurred, to be ignorant of that fact is either based on not understanding what all these terms mean or blind following of Joss.

As for yoru 'Villains' piece, thats just absolutely absurd.

You can argue that Buffy died in PG and that activated a Slayer, even though actual fact states that couldn't have happened (and don't use Clinical Death again as even Doctors don't class it as a legal DEATH) while dismissing the flatline event as Buffy's heart hadn't stopped beating.

Amazing, absolutely amazing.

OK, the electrical energy coming off Willow would have been intense, HOWEVER, there is not one iota of evidence that this charge will affect machinery the same way.
Just because other devices were fluctuating doesn't mean the heart monitor wasn't affected.
At the same time, the heart beats because of eletrical impulses which could have been affected by the energy.

I agree that she didn't die (I believe that it was because of the energy coming off Willow) I just don't get how an otherwise intelligent guy could make such a large assumption.

OK, I'll pose one.

Why when every other device that was in the room fluctuated did the heart monitor NOT give in to the energy surge?