How much pandering to fans should writers do?

[xfivebyfive]

How so? I'm gonna jump in cause I think I know what you meant by OOC: I know there's anger that he didn't mention anything about Cordelia or Connor but that story was wrapped on his own series - with another season following - and both cases had nothing to do with Buffy the character or BtVS. Cordelia had been irrelevent on BtVS for four years by that time and what is there to say? It's not like Angel is a big ol' chatterbox about things that bug him even to Buffy so had he spilled I would've found that OOC. (Also, I'm sure if Buffy had known about Connor her memory would've been wiped of anything Connor.) Again, I'm assuming that's what you mean by OOC.

Remember, not all Buffy fans watched AtS so him bringing it up wouldn't make sense (Chosen was rushed enough let alone having all this irrelevent-to-her-sitch exposition of what happened in LA to Buffy squeezed in). Had Buffy crossed onto Angel in season 5 then that stuff would obviously be addressed as it happened in that series and is relevent. However, if these were HBO shows, I'm sure it would've been brought up and everything leading up to it handled differently. 😉

Its not just about him not bringing up Cordy or Connor. I can understand why he wouldnt or why they would choose to have him not since it was relevant to the storyline on Btvs. But it wasn't just that. His whole attitude was off.

He just gave up his son. The only one he will ever have, the one thing he loves most in the world. He goes bouncing over to sunnydale with this big smile and just generally in a great mood. First of all when was Angel ever that outwardly happy on Btvs? Never! Second even if he doesn't want to discuss the pain hes just gone through it would still be killing him and hes not the type to put aside his brooding.

Yes he loves buffy, yes he always will. But I can't believe that after everything that happened he would act the way he did in Chosen. I just cant see Angel acting that way. Its so OOC to me.

 

[Zeppo]

His whole attitude was off.

He just gave up his son. The only one he will ever have, the one thing he loves most in the world. He goes bouncing over to sunnydale with this big smile and just generally in a great mood. First of all when was Angel ever that outwardly happy on Btvs? Never! Second even if he doesn't want to discuss the pain hes just gone through it would still be killing him and hes not the type to put aside his brooding.

Yes he loves buffy, yes he always will. But I can't believe that after everything that happened he would act the way he did in Chosen. I just cant see Angel acting that way. Its so OOC to me.

Hmm I see. I keep thinking about that last moment of him observing Connor in his new home, though; he smiles before walking away. I know it would be hard for him of course but he saved his son from suicide and from the life that had caused everyone so much pain.

You're right, Angel was never that outwardly happy on BtVS. However, I think we can all agree that Angel had changed a lot since he was on the show (Cordelia's influence? Getting him to extert more feeling?). He came to help save the day, fall back into a familiar role after the craziness that was AtS S4, maybe that made him happy. The scene between them was campy but the show was camp, or at least it originally started that way. I agree it could've afforded a bit more broodiness but it wasn't enough for me to say it was OOC, though I respect if you do, K-T. 😛

 

[Icarium]

Ok, sure. Another way of looking at it is if you look at Buffy's speech about cookies then watch at the end when Spike dies and you aren't an AtS viewer (or are, without knowing Spikey-wikey returns), it's pretty clear of what choice she'll probably make, lol.

It is? What exactly had changed since they broke up and had made Buffy/Angel any more viable than it was four years ago? Not to mention most shippers were probably going to assume Buffy was going to end up with "insert preference here" anyway, speech or no speech, Angel appearance or no Angel appearance, Spike death or no Spike death. For instance, I have yet to see a single Willow/Tara fan who after Chosen said "Well, it's clear now, Willow is going to be real happy with Kennedy", shipping simply doesn't work that way, IMO.

No, he wasn't. He was back a few times in season 4 not to mention Buffy's visits to LA and came to Buffy's side in season 5 followed by her running away from her new life and meeting him after her ressurection. His influence was a lot heavier on the title character than Cordelia's. The non-closure of their relationship didn't make him irrelevent, his name even popping up numerous times since he left and not just from Buffy. I couldn't imagine the show ending without a cameo from Angel, something's gotta bookend the series a little.

Cordelia was dead. This news should have had a lot more of an impact on the Scoobies than just about anything the (sort of) alive Angel could do. Not addressing that fact on screen was ridiculous. In fact, the entire lack of communication between Sunnydale and LA was ridiculous, so I think it was best to not point to the elephant in the room (insert a fat Angel joke here 🙂). If you are going to do crossovers, do them properly like Orpheus.

I'm not defending that the amulet stuff is good writing, but no one knew it would save the day and no one said it had to be used. I still don't think it's OOC for him to bring a possible antidote to the problem, though, regardless of the outcome. I would find it OOC for him to not come to her side to help, with or without a dues ex machina.

I never said it was OOC, just really bad writing., not least because Angel's reason for coming to Sunnydale was almost as contrived as in Pangs and that's a whole lot of contrivance. 🙂

Maybe. I guess it depends if you want closure on it.

If anyone cares, personally I only want closure if it goes my way otherwise leave it open so I can close it myself which I think was the intention (I don't mind that so much, it's like a Archie-Betty-Veronica thing but it clearly alienates many.). Sure, you could say Joss was scared to pick and maybe he was but he's made controversial decisions before, especially concerning Willow. I can't blame him for trying to make everyone happy but remember, the verse was not over, just that one incarnation of it so there was more room to keep going with it. They knew whatever viewship from Buffy that wasn't watching AtS would tune in and they did.

I wasn't really a fan back then, so I can only repeat what I have read about this, but wasn't Chosen written before AtS S5 was confirmed? And my objections have nothing to do with wanting closure, the same thing continues in S8, only even more panderific - now the Xander/Buffy shippers and those who want Buffy to follow Willow along the road to "gay now" were also thrown a few bones, along with the positively schizophrenic treatment of the Spike/Buffy/Angel triangle of doom.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

One way the writers catered to the fans was Kennedy.

No, seriously. Kennedy. We got Kennedy because people were upset about Tara and calling the writers homophobic. So, instead of keeping Willow fluid in sexuality (as per the original plan) or even just keeping Willow single, we got Kennedy just to re-establish that Willow will now be a lesbian because god forbid we have a fluid/bisexual person on the show who isn't evil, or a single lesbian who can just be friends with another lesbian and not auto-hook up because tongue rings are involved.

So thank you loud and annoying section of the fanbase. You screwed us all.

 

[Zeppo]

It is? What exactly had changed since they broke up and had made Buffy/Angel any more viable than it was four years ago? Not to mention most shippers were probably going to assume Buffy was going to end up with "insert preference here" anyway, speech or no speech, Angel appearance or no Angel appearance, Spike death or no Spike death. For instance, I have yet to see a single Willow/Tara fan who after Chosen said "Well, it's clear now, Willow is going to be real happy with Kennedy", shipping simply doesn't work that way, IMO.

Nothing changed. They're doomed if they get together either way. That's why I never got the Cangel stuff cause he can't have happiness with Cordy either. My point there was that Spike died and she was left with Angel so her choice was made for her, whether she went through with it or not. I was slightly joking, slightly.

Cordelia was dead. This news should have had a lot more of an impact on the Scoobies than just about anything the (sort of) alive Angel could do.

She was coma-ed, not dead. Sad, but the First was threatening to swallow them whole and kill them deader than Cordy's coma so I dunno what that info would contribute to. What would we expect Buffy to say? They weren't over friendly with one another. If there was a way to fit everything in a thorough, tight little package that would've been swell and would've welcomed the mention of Cordelia but like I said she had pretty much been dead to Sunnydale for four years with a viewship who weren't all watching Angel.

Not addressing that fact on screen was ridiculous. In fact, the entire lack of communication between Sunnydale and LA was ridiculous, so I think it was best to not point to the elephant in the room (insert a fat Angel joke here 🙂). If you are going to do crossovers, do them properly like Orpheus.

The end of BtVS was rushed. It sucks, I don't like it, and not everything was thought out well. Not every crossover is gonna be as epic or as lame as the one before. Cordy's death was expressed onscreen on AtS tons where it made sense.

Angel: "Cordelia's in a coma, Buffy."
Buffy: "Too bad. She looked good at prom that one time."

Seriously, what is there to address?

I never said it was OOC, just really bad writing., not least because Angel's reason for coming to Sunnydale was almost as contrived as in Pangs and that's a whole lot of contrivance. 🙂

It should've been a more epic vision in Pangs, for sure! Buffy could've handled herself against the tribe like she did. I guess Angel could've Fed-Ex'ed the amulet but somehow any excuse to see Buffy I think he'd take and vice versa.

I wasn't really a fan back then, so I can only repeat what I have read about this, but wasn't Chosen written before AtS S5 was confirmed?

Yes because I knew that Spike was coming to Angel before Chosen even aired. I spent a summer wondering how they were gonna bring him back and piss me off. (Also, the network wouldn't renew Angel unless they got Spike on the show. At least, that was the articles that were being passed around the net at the time.)

now the Xander/Buffy shippers and those who want Buffy to follow Willow along the road to "gay now" were also thrown a few bones, along with the positively schizophrenic treatment of the Spike/Buffy/Angel triangle of doom.

Absolutely, I totally agree.

 

[AlyInWonderland]

I feel like you can't ignore the fans because they are the reason the show is on the air. HOWEVER, you shouldn't let their needs dictate the storylines because that is comprising who you are as a writer/creator/showrunner etc. If the fans always get what they want and never really are surprised, then the show loses interest and integrity.

 

[Icarium]

Yes because I knew that Spike was coming to Angel before Chosen even aired.

Before it aired, yes, but an episode is usually shot at least a few weeks before that and written even earlier.

She was coma-ed, not dead. Sad, but the First was threatening to swallow them whole and kill them deader than Cordy's coma so I dunno what that info would contribute to. What would we expect Buffy to say? They weren't over friendly with one another. If there was a way to fit everything in a thorough, tight little package that would've been swell and would've welcomed the mention of Cordelia but like I said she had pretty much been dead to Sunnydale for four years with a viewship who weren't all watching Angel.

Yes, I kind of screwed up the timeline but even the coma was big news. Willow and Xander had known Cordelia their entire lives (even if they hated her for much of that period). Would it have really changed anything if Angel had told them? No. But at least we would have had a bit of continuity for a change (at the time I would reckon the writing team needed a dictionary to even know what that word meant).

One way the writers catered to the fans was Kennedy.

No, seriously. Kennedy. We got Kennedy because people were upset about Tara and calling the writers homophobic. So, instead of keeping Willow fluid in sexuality (as per the original plan) or even just keeping Willow single, we got Kennedy just to re-establish that Willow will now be a lesbian because god forbid we have a fluid/bisexual person on the show who isn't evil, or a single lesbian who can just be friends with another lesbian and not auto-hook up because tongue rings are involved.

So thank you loud and annoying section of the fanbase. You screwed us all.

It's not really the fault of that particular minority that the writers lacked a backbone and that they created a rather boring character whose one and only role (they explicitly said that) was to be "the anti Tara". But yes, this is a textbook example of be careful what you wish for, when it comes to demanding the writers to do something you want.

 

[AlyInWonderland]

[MENTION=10363]zobothehobo[/MENTION] Um yes! We will be kick ass writers with an epic show. Please the fans and then BAM a big change/shake up. Perhaps a death, who knows. We have options.

 

[caritas08]

I'll just repeat what I said on other threads and add that Cangel was not popular (at least among the vocal internet fandom) at the time of the show. I remember the anti-Cangel comments and threads on the Buffy message board (the Fox one not this one) and the letters to TV Guide etc.. Because of this, I think the writers shortchanged Cangel which had been building at least from Season 2. Even though I'm not the biggest romantic Cangel shipper in the world I feel it was never properly explored from what they started or finished. On BtVS we had Spuffy and I think it was important to give Angel another love interest besides Buffy that was actually a relationship (not the unrequited/mostly unspoken feelings it ended up being.

 

[white avenger]

I really never saw Joss or his staff ever "pandering" to the fans as much as plotting the general story line of the series in a way that the fans would find enjoyable, while complying with existing network guidelines, which is a totally different thing.

As for the Spuffy/Bangel issue, Joss HAD to bring Angel or some major reminder that the relationship was still viable simply because of the way that the series ended. If Angel had never shown up, if there had never been any "cookie dough" speech, then the show would have simply ended with Buffy declaring that she did, as we all remember, love Spike. Without Angel somewhere in the mix, a lot of fans would have taken that to have been her final answer on the question. As it did end, the issue is left unsettled, with plenty of room in the future to keep the debate, therefore interest in the series, going.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

In my ideal world no pandering would take place. I feel like if they write to what the fans want that's cheapening the story in a way. We need to respect the vision of the story. If we don't like it, tough. It's not our story - it's theirs.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

In my ideal world no pandering would take place. I feel like if they write to what the fans want that's cheapening the story in a way. We need to respect the vision of the story. If we don't like it, tough. It's not our story - it's theirs.

True, but at the same time, rating or no ratings, they're sharing the story with us. If they're going to make a TV show, make people like the characters and want to follow the story, they have to take us into consideration when writing. They have to commit.

Like with season 8. I'm not sure if it was a miscalculation, or if they decided to simply tell the story they wanted to tell no matter if the fans followed, but fans didn't get it. It's one thing if we don't like it, another thing if we end up confused with too many questions.

The writers should always have to ask themselves "Will everyone/enough people get what we're saying? Will people either a)understand why we're doing this or b)not understand but accept that it's a bit confusing or c)will the not knowing annoy the hell out of them and no one will get it but us?"

Now, I'm not sure if that counts as pandering or just good storytelling. Not sure where you draw the line Joan.

 

[Flannen]

I hate pandering too. I think if writers pander to the fans too much it starts feeling like I'm watching really bad fanfiction, mainly because, as others have stated, they lose their characters. (My biggest gripe with fanfiction is how people will poop all over their characters in order to make their 'ship work, or whatever and it makes me so mad!) *ahem*

I love shows when I feel like the writer wants to tell a story and has a story to tell. When I feel that isn't there so much and it becomes more, for whatever, reason I get grumpy.

Saying that, I think it's difficult for writers to maintain their integrity. Not just in the sense of the fight to keep ratings and save yourself from cancellation but because of the huge increase in the way fans of shows interact with social media and networking. In nearly every interview I've read with any TVD cast or crew member Tumblr or Twitter get mentioned and you have to start wondering what role that plays.

 

[VisionGirl]

I really never saw Joss or his staff ever "pandering" to the fans as much as plotting the general story line of the series in a way that the fans would find enjoyable, while complying with existing network guidelines, which is a totally different thing.

I'm sorry my finger hit the wrong key when I was trying to leave you rep, but this paragraph perfectly explains things!