HP6: for those who've finished. (spoiler warning)

[Anita Blake]

Good point charmingangelC! 😀

Okay, the act of taking a life is bad. Snape wasn't doing it in self-defense per se because I think he was being really selfish in killing Dumbledore just to keep himself alive if that is what you are saying. But, let me ask you this: If he was really not evil, then why would he want to kill Dumbledore, the only person Voldy is afraid of? If he was on the good side, you'd think that he would sacrifice his life to keep alive a person that everyone knows has a chance of defeating Voldy. (Remember, that the general public is not aware of the prophecy...)

 

[killerdwarf]

Good points all, AB! I think his comments in the "Spinner's End" chapter pretty much summed it up: "Good" has no concept of "Evil", and "Evil" always uses this to its advantage. What I mean is that most "Good" people cannot even conceive of why "Evil" people do what they do. "Good" people see the good in everyone, and if "Evil" is a proficient enough actor, "Good" will be fooled. For Dumbledore, the mere act of using legilimency to test Snape would be an unthinkable intrusion, so we are left with Dumbledore forced to take Snape at his word, with no confirming evidence. True "Evil" will use the rules of society against it...

On a separate, yet related note, has anyone else noted the closeness of this series to the events of Star Wars, especially Eps 4, 5 and 6? I know about the universality of myth and heroes, but the similarities are striking! The hero's parents are killed when he's a child. He's raised by a somewhat nervous aunt and uncle, who want to keep the "wildness" out of the hero. An "uncle" is killed (I know it's a different uncle, but...) His mentor/father figure (Dumbledore and Obi-wan) is killed by a minion of the Big Bad as the hero watches...there are probably a ton more, but you get the picture! Rowling is using standard myth to her advantage, and doing a fine job of telling the story!

 

[WatcherWes]

I think Hogwarts is one of the remaining horcruxes. It would be an artifact from both Ravenclaw and Gryffindor, and it would be ridiculously dramatic for Harry to have to destroy Hogwarts.

 

[Anita Blake]

Good points all, AB! I think his comments in the "Spinner's End" chapter pretty much summed it up: "Good" has no concept of "Evil", and "Evil" always uses this to its advantage. What I mean is that most "Good" people cannot even conceive of why "Evil" people do what they do. "Good" people see the good in everyone, and if "Evil" is a proficient enough actor, "Good" will be fooled. For Dumbledore, the mere act of using legilimency to test Snape would be an unthinkable intrusion, so we are left with Dumbledore forced to take Snape at his word, with no confirming evidence. True "Evil" will use the rules of society against it...

Exactly what I was trying to get at but very much more articulate. 😀

On a separate, yet related note, has anyone else noted the closeness of this series to the events of Star Wars, especially Eps 4, 5 and 6? I know about the universality of myth and heroes, but the similarities are striking! The hero's parents are killed when he's a child. He's raised by a somewhat nervous aunt and uncle, who want to keep the "wildness" out of the hero. An "uncle" is killed (I know it's a different uncle, but...) His mentor/father figure (Dumbledore and Obi-wan) is killed by a minion of the Big Bad as the hero watches...there are probably a ton more, but you get the picture! Rowling is using standard myth to her advantage, and doing a fine job of telling the story!

You know, now that you mention it, I can totally see how the two relate. I'm just glad that Harry looks so much like his father, 'cause it would be shocking if Voldy said "Harry, I am your father. *heavy breathing*)" LOL.

I think Hogwarts is one of the remaining horcruxes. It would be an artifact from both Ravenclaw and Gryffindor, and it would be ridiculously dramatic for Harry to have to destroy Hogwarts.

Well, wouldn't there have been signs of part of Voldy's soul or spirit inhabiting the school? Like the book in COS? But that is a good guess, I hadn't even thought of that. It would be kinda surprising and him having to pull a Buffy on the school. LOL. Plus it fits in with killerdwarf's 'like star wars' theme, like the death star being destroyed...

 

[Anchovy]

Yep, the similarities with Good Star Wars are striking, but I find that each time I re-read HP, I find more and more influences. Did anybody else think "Dead Marshes" while Harry and Dumbledore were after the locket? And hey speaking of the Fake Horcrux, what about Harry and Co. finding 'a heavy locket that none of them could open' while cleaning the House of Black? (OotP, p116, American version) Horcrux, or just more nasty Black collector's items?

 

[Xin Rong]

I agree that Regalus could have stolen the horcrux before he died, but when you say that he wasn't evil, are you forgetting he was a Death Eater? Voldemort supposedly killed him when he got scared and tried to back out. There could have been more to it than that, such as Voldemort killed him to try and get the horcrux back, or Regalus could have stolen it to try and ensure that Voldemort wouldn't kill him if he tried to escape.

I doubt that if it is RB that voldemort killed him for stealing the hocrux afterall, if voldemort knew why leave the note

Did anyone else think that maybe snape was forced to kill dumbledore, through a certain curse or as a result of the unbreakable vow thingymabob like maybe the UV made it so in a situation where he could do what he had vowed he would be forced ro.

Also I like the theory about harry being a hocrux, afterall it would explain the similarities harry and voldemort share, i.e. being parsel tongues etc and the link between harry and V better

 

[Eowyn]

Did anyone else think that maybe snape was forced to kill dumbledore, through a certain curse or as a result of the unbreakable vow thingymabob like maybe the UV made it so in a situation where he could do what he had vowed he would be forced ro.

I doubt it... 'Cause the way I understood it, people still have control over their actions. For example - if Snape didn't kill Dumbledore he'd die. But that is just what I think.

 

[Xin Rong]

I was reading HP5 the other day and I have more supprot for the RAB= Regulas black theory because two more senior members of his family names begin with A so maybe his middle name is named after one of them. Of course this is all speculation but still...

 

[WatcherWes]

Did anyone else get a very Peter Parker/Mary Jane feeling when reading the Harry/Ginny break-up scene at the end of the book?

 

[killerdwarf]

Now that you mention it, yeah, it did play like that. But the Big Bad always comes after the family/loved ones...

 

[TheChosenOne]

Everyone seems to think that RAB may be a member of the Black family. But what if it isn't, what if it is someone we all know with a different surname i.e they got married or changed their name.

I like the idea about the Polyjuice Potion and that it wasn't really Dumbledore, but a Deatheater.

I can't believe that Snape has been batting for the otherside all along. I mean why try and save Harry's life in the other books?

Also we never did get to know why Dumbledore's hand was black did we?

 

[Allycat]

I think Dumbledore may be alive still, he could have the opposite of Horcruxes and Snape may have known this. Opposite as in, something created not by a spell of complete evil, but of love and stuff. Snape would know that Dumbledore would be able to return, he would prove ultimate loyalty to Voldemort and Dumbledore could use it to operate secretly.

 

[ana8]

Just finished it....quite enjoyed it and I also didn't see Dumbledore's death coming..I hope that Snape is really evil so Harry and others can kick his stupid butt in last book..but that's just me...
Breaking up with Ginny was rather childish..Lord V knows either way by now that Harry loves her so it doesn't matter whether they stay together or not..

 

[killerdwarf]

I can't believe that Snape has been batting for the otherside all along. I mean why try and save Harry's life in the other books?

Up until that point, Voldemort wanted Harry alive, at least until he reconstituted his body at the end of Book 4, and retrieved the prophecy in Book 5. Snape was just following orders, like any good stormtrooper.

Also we never did get to know why Dumbledore's hand was black did we?

It was never outright said, but it was inferred he got it damaged by destroying Slytherin's ring...the one Morfin had, that Dumbledore found in the wreckage of the cottage.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

KD - just discussed Dumbledore's burnt hand with Mrs P - we reckon you've hit the nail on the head...it was definitely when he was after one of the hor...thingies 😉

 

[Xin Rong]

Does anyone else think it's possible dumbledore sacrificed himself on purpose to provide further protection for harry, you know when his mum died he got that ancient protection thing, maybe dumbledores sacrifice provides harry with more protection

 

[Faldor]

i like the idea that it wasnt snape but somone on polyjuice, there was a line somewhere about the half blood princes book being too old to be harrys fathers ergo snapes...

 

[Anita Blake]

Up until that point, Voldemort wanted Harry alive, at least until he reconstituted his body at the end of Book 4, and retrieved the prophecy in Book 5. Snape was just following orders, like any good stormtrooper.

Again with the Star Wars references...LOL!

But, yeah after Voldy came back to power and got the prophecy it was like he posted a sign saying "Harry Potter season" and after that it was open season on Harry.

(I just had this weird mental image of Harry with deer antlers...)

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Just a quick point to all......Snape did Kill Dumbledore.

HOWEVER...lets look at the book to see what happened.

At the Beginning, Snape HAS to perform the Unbreakable Vow....meaning that if Malfoy COULNDT Kill Dumbledore...Snape had to.

Also.....in the Cave....Dumbledore CONSTANTLY makes comment that Harry is the only one in the fight against Voldemorte who matters...everyone else is expendable.

Then we also have the arrival at the tower when Dumbledore Purposefully Makes it so Harry cannot be seen BUT can see everything.

We also have the evidence that Malfoy infact couldnt kill Dumbledore.

Then we have the initial shock of Snape when he sees they have Dumbledore.

We also have the fact that Snape is a great Occlumens....only bettered by Dumbledore.

We also have the fact Dumbledore trusts Snape without doubt.

And we also have the argument between Snape and Dumbledore.

We have the fact that Dumbledore pleads to Snape(yet we dont actually have him plead for his life...and poleading isnt in Dumbledores nature)

and Finally we have the fact that Snape kills no one other then Dumbledore.


Put all that together and its obvious what happened.

Snape, working as a double agent(but working for the Good guys) was the Link Dumbledore had...he needed one.
Snape was then brought back into the fold of Voldemorte and convinces him he is on there side(probably using the pensieve to remove memories so that Voldemorte doesnt know of his duplicitousness).
He is then told by Narcissa of the plan to use malfoy and does the unbreakable vow......When this information is passed back to Dumbledore they discuss that in the event of this happening Snape has to do it(remember to break the vow is death)....when the time comes and Malfoy cant do it he has to flee....and Voldemorte would Kill him AND his family.....this is when Dumbledore pleads with snape...NOT to spare him....but to actually kill him.
He does this in front of Harry for two reasons....One to let Harry know that Malfoy couldnt do it...thus Harry can let him go...and second to make Harry want vengeance....Dumbledore knows that Harry needs to actually search out Voldemorte...he cant wait for him any longer......With the Anger in him he is in a place where he can go find snape and voldemorte....revenge is his biggest ally in this final confrontation.....

 

[charmingangelC]

there was a line somewhere about the half blood princes book being too old to be harrys fathers ergo snapes...

No, I think the line was that it wasn't old enough to be Voldemort and Lupin told Harry the book wasn't his father's.