I don't know about everybody else but Spike is the best partner for Buffy yet.

[DaniRose20]

In my opinion Spike is the best partner she's ever had. Bangel bored me to tears 90% of the time. It's not that it was a sexless relationship either. His whining about having a soul did that to me. I get he felt horrible about what he did but he made it unbearable to watch. Riley and her just didn't make sense. He always tried to be just like her or better. He didn't comprehend that he was only human and the things he did were beyond reckless. He let vamps feed on him for God's sake! Just because it happened to her, which the only one that was her doing was Angel. He had to or he'd die. Spike though, he was incredible! I get what happened in "Seeing Red" should've changed my mind but it didn't and it won't. He did so many things that were against his nature. He loved Dru and Buffy without a soul. He protected both of them also. That's what made him different than Angel, big time. Angel had no remorse for averything he did while he had no soul. Spike did. Angel raped, killed, tortured ect but everyone acted like it never happened and still loved him when he was cursed again. That's what makes me angry. Spike did this one thing that you seen while he was soulless because he was hurting and confused but he can't be forgiven? How is that fair? Because we seen the attempted rape but never actually seen Angel rape anyone when it's clearly insinuated that he did that more than once. Spike wasn't cursed. He went to the otherside of the world to get his soul so he could be capable of being loved. He did that outta love. He only wanted to be seen like Angel was seen by her. He is very capable of redemption. He proved that time and again. Being tortured by Glory because he wouldn't betray Buffy and give up Dawn who he loved too. Protecting Dawn, Buffy and the Scoobies. Even though Xander and Giles treated him like the gum on their shoe. The only one who was around Buffy that really never treated him like crap was Joyce. She treated him like the man he is. It just disgusts me how much he's hated when Angels done some many worse things. Spike has a poet's heart, even when he's soulless. It doesn't hurt that James is beautiful either.

 

[CHK DeWilSon]

And I'd say the complete opposite.
It just a matter of opinion and sometimes preference.

And let me make one thing clear, I love and wanted Buffy and Angel together not Buffy and Angelus.

When you talk about some of the great things that Spike did like protecting Dawn, you are talking about soulless Spike. So you want to give him props for that, like he is so caring and kind and thoughtful despite not having a soul at that time but then excuse the same Spike for the AR?!

Angel may not have been the perfect boyfriend (which frankly who is and a role that only he and Riley had with Buffy on the show) but again I am talking about souled Angel. Whatever there was between Buffy and Angelus I didn't support it as anything less that was onscreen as Buffy having to kill him in the end.

Buffy and Spike had their fans from when he first appeared in the show thinking they had chemistry. It grew in the 4th series and 5th series and their fans were ecstatic with their development in the 6th series.

At no point do I believe up until literally the AR was there even a thought of that Spike should have or needed a soul to continue to be in what ever 'relationship' they were having. So it would look like they were perfectly fine with Buffy being with a soulless Spike. The chip in his brain had neuter him to the point where he was not a threat to any human as in biting or killing them.

So the fact that Spike eventually got a soul hadn't been the crucial point of liking and wanting him and Buffy together because that was said by many from previous series and established in the 6th series.

So the SL of Spike getting a soul wasn't a necessary because of the fans of Buffy and Spike liking them already.

And I've said it before but I don't find anyone noble about Spike going for a soul simply because of how it occurred and it showing his obsession with Buffy and how he couldn't accept her decision that she wanted to end it between them. He was going to do what ever it took to get her back despite her feelings on the matter. But of course it was a soulless Spike who version of love as a vampire without a soul wouldn't really be classed as healthy and good.

Still you clearly love Spike and so you thinking that is fair enough.
I'm always going to prefer her with Angel and believe they were the best for each other because of the personal growth in the characters in their journey when they were together and then on their own separate paths.

 

[thetopher]

No, not remotely are they suited as partners. But I think that Spike thinks what you think. His thinking in S7 seems to be 'look what I did and how I feel now what do I get?'
That entitlement coming from somebody who very recently caused her so much pain is disgusting.

If he's not responsible,- because of soul- then that's one thing- but if he 'got a soul for her' then he also violently sexually assaulted her mere months ago and now he wants back in her good graces? That makes me queasy.

I never cared that they eventually got together in the comics- time can heal the deepest wounds- but by that time they had other problems as a couple.

Spike though, he was incredible! I get what happened in "Seeing Red" should've changed my mind but it didn't and it won't. He did so many things that were against his nature. He loved Dru and Buffy without a soul.

Spike's nature is being a romantic, its fundamental to his being. That's what he is and that's what caused him to do some good things (and so many bad things). How many brutal things did he do to win Drusilla's love and approval for over a century? And he should get a pass because of the motive? Many people do horrible things out of love or obsession and Spike is a prime example.
I understand that his mind-set is very appealing to some, but many find it incredibly banal and self-involved.

Angel had no remorse for averything he did while he had no soul. Spike did.

This is just bizarre. Show me one scene where Spike shows real remorse for his crimes, without a soul.
Hell, he barely feels guilt with one (or he does until Buffy seems to forgive him), whereas Angel eventually manages to turns himself into a champion despite greater chalenges and not ever catching a break.

My preference of Angel over Spike has very little to do with the Bangel/Spuffy debate, but about their post-soul journey. S7 and beyond Spike is the one who bores me to tears or makes me roll my eyes.

He went to the otherside of the world to get his soul so he could be capable of being loved. He did that outta love.

This is one interpretation. The one that Spike says himself only AFTER he gets a soul.
I could easily say that Spike simply wanted a second shot with Buffy, or wanted to force Buffy to admit her already present feelings for him
The soul was something that Spike had no concept of. I mean really, what did he have to lose? 'Going soft like Angel? He was already that because of the chip, so he decided 'what the hell?' and went through some trials very similar to the ones Angel did in ONE episode of his own show. I don't see why its a big deal, really I don't.

 

[white avenger]

This whole argument/discussion has been going on pretty much since "School Hard" in Season 2, when Spike was first introduced, and didn't end even when Buffy told him that she loved him at the end of Season 7. Say whatever you want to about William the Bloody, he certainly can stir up both his supporters and detractors. Is his cup half empty, or is it half full? That, for me, is what makes him the most interesting character on the show, and why Spuffy will always hold a special place in my heart.

But it's still Jandy for the win, all the way. Joan loves Randy. Randy loves Joan. That is the single most immutable truth in the entire Buffyverse.

 

[Btvs fan]

Agreed, I'm Team Spike all the way.
They had amazing chemistry and were fun to watch.
Bangel was just a mk1 Twilight, I was so bored by it. It's also creepy as well with the whole 15 year old Buffy and 28 yr old Angel staring from a blacked out car 🤢

 

[GraceK]

Spike though, he was incredible! I get what happened in "Seeing Red" should've changed my mind but it didn't and it won't.

Kudos. A lot of women have rape fantasies. I think it’s great your so open about it👍🏻

He loved Dru and Buffy without a soul. He protected both of them also. That's what made him different than Angel, big time

That’s actually not unusual in the Buffyverse for a vampire. Drusilla loved Spike. James and Elizabeth loved each other for over 200 years on Angel the Series. Darla, in her own very twisted way, loved Angelus. If anything, Angelus is actually more of an anomaly in the
Buffyverse in his sadism and inability to love. Of course, not being an Angel fan, you probably don’t know much about his character at all or have actually bothered to find out. But I could be wrong .

Angel had no remorse for averything he did while he had no soul. Spike did. Angel raped, killed, tortured ect but everyone acted like it never happened and still loved him when he was cursed again. That's what makes me angry. Spike did this one thing that you seen while he was soulless because he was hurting and confused but he can't be forgiven? How is that fair? Because we seen the attempted rape but never actually seen Angel rape anyone when it's clearly insinuated that he did that more than once.

Yeah... this is Just ignorant. 🤦🏻‍♀️ Have you actually watched this show? Angel didn’t do any of these things. Angelus did. The whole basis of his character lays in the fact that Angel is literally suffering torment for the memories of his past when he was soulless. Angel didn’t rape, murder, or torture anyone. In fact, Angel devotes himself to being a champion and helping others and is literally gifted with a Seer from divine beings to help save the world . So yeah. I think that’s why people are so “ willing to forgive him “. 🙄 Everything Spike does he does while he is soulless. Yes, he’s sexy, yes, he’s interesting, yes, he does truly love Buffy. It’s fascinating that he happens to do selfless acts as a vampire without a soul. Focus on that . Don’t babble incoherent nonsense about Angel and rewrite canon to further your Spuffy agenda. It just makes you look uninformed.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I agree that Spike was the best partner for Buffy. Without a doubt. Up until S6ish.

 

[Btvs fan]

Buffy sarcastically "because muggers deserve to be eaten"

Darla "thieves/rapists/murderers only evil doers you hunt now


Angel not Angelus was a murderer. He manipulated and played with people like Drogon and Lindsey and his own team. He is even responsible for Harmony's future victims (he even gave her a reference) since he let her go.

 

[Taake]

Kudos. A lot of women have rape fantasies. I think it’s great your so open about it👍🏻

That’s actually not unusual in the Buffyverse for a vampire. Drusilla loved Spike. James and Elizabeth loved each other for over 200 years on Angel the Series. Darla, in her own very twisted way, loved Angelus. If anything, Angelus is actually more of an anomaly in the
Buffyverse in his sadism and inability to love. Of course, not being an Angel fan, you probably don’t know much about his character at all or have actually bothered to find out. But I could be wrong .

Yeah... this is Just ignorant. 🤦🏻‍♀️ Have you actually watched this show? Angel didn’t do any of these things. Angelus did. The whole basis of his character lays in the fact that Angel is literally suffering torment for the memories of his past when he was soulless. Angel didn’t rape, murder, or torture anyone. In fact, Angel devotes himself to being a champion and helping others and is literally gifted with a Seer from divine beings to help save the world . So yeah. I think that’s why people are so “ willing to forgive him “. 🙄 Everything Spike does he does while he is soulless. Yes, he’s sexy, yes, he’s interesting, yes, he does truly love Buffy. It’s fascinating that he happens to do selfless acts as a vampire without a soul. Focus on that . Don’t babble incoherent nonsense about Angel and rewrite canon to further your Spuffy agenda. It just makes you look uninformed.

Let's not make this personal, keep the focus on the arguments not the poster. You can say everything you just said, without the personal add-ons.

 

[GraceK]

He is even responsible for Harmony's future victims (he even gave her a reference) since he let her go.

Actually, in that case, Buffy is responsible for Harmonys victims for letting her go in season 5 all those times and never killing her. Even as far back in season 4 if you want to get technical.

Angel is not responsible for Lindsay. That’s ridiculous. He didn’t manipulate him. Are you forgetting the fact that Lindsay had a chance to go off , seek redemption and turn over a new leaf? Instead he got super powered and tried to kill Angel. And just so we are clear, I never agreed with the whole Lorne kills Lindsay thing. I love Lindsay. That was wrong of Angel. I also have HUGE ISSUES with Angel killing drogon, and the Angel finale actually. So if you want to have a discussion on all the Problematic shit Angel does in Season 5 of his own show, fantastic. But otherwise, don’t use him as a comparison for soulless Spike because it still doesn’t hold up. At all.

 

[CHK DeWilSon]

Agreed, I'm Team Spike all the way.
They had amazing chemistry and were fun to watch.
Bangel was just a mk1 Twilight, I was so bored by it. It's also creepy as well with the whole 15 year old Buffy and 28 yr old Angel staring from a blacked out car 🤢

That seems to be a favourite saying about Angel when he first sees Buffy.

It's just I remember reading up on Spike being attracted to Buffy when he first saw her in action as the slayer. Which would have been when she was 16. But still that is basically a whole year from Angel eh?!

And anyway haven't you actually got Angel's age wrong because he was over 200 years old when he saw Buffy for the first time!!

 

[thetopher]

Angel not Angelus was a murderer.

Most people on both shows have killed people. Wesley and Gunn have both killed in cold blood and nobody cares. Connor as well. Buffy and Willow too. Faith (obviously).

Spike might not have killed willingly- not that he cared about the innocent she was made to kill in S7 for very long- but he brutally beat Wood, bit him and was willing to kill him 'if he looked at him funny'.
He's also attacked Anya, Xander and Faith with zero provocation.

And Spike is proud of murdering two slayers, forces for good. Presumably if he'd killed Buffy in 'School Hard' he would've felt very proud of that as well. Because she's a slayer and he's a vampire and that's the way the game is played, right?

It's also worth noting that by S11 Spike is still willing to kill unarmed humans who are threatening him, he just needs Buffy's permission first.

Basically Spike is not righteous by any stretch. The very idea is laughable.

He is even responsible for Harmony's future victims

Buffy did it first and more often. At least when Harmony was around Angel she was working for him rather than killing and recruiting people.

 

[Bluebird]

I don't think Spike would like to be described as a hero.

Spike did this one thing that you seen while he was soulless because he was hurting and confused but he can't be forgiven? How is that fair? Because we seen the attempted rape but never actually seen Angel rape anyone when it's clearly insinuated that he did that more than once.

There's a reason why the TV show explicitly shows us the attempted rape and only insinuates at Angel's crimes, in storytelling. The scene was not to show how hurt and confused Spike was.

 

[spikenbuffy]

Most people on both shows have killed people. Wesley and Gunn have both killed in cold blood and nobody cares. Connor as well. Buffy and Willow too. Faith (obviously).

Buffy ? When ?

 

[DaniRose20]

I love how many people are defending Angel when what I said is my opinion. I thought that was allowed here😂 I'm only saying that even when Angel gets his soul back he's forgiven. Spike isn't. That's why it's not fair. I'm not saying that Spike became a puppy after he got his soul. Yes he'll still kill. Just like Angel. I just find it unfair how many people are trying the whole Angel/Angelus thing and wont even see that Spike did help without a soul. Angel would've just rather rip everyone's heart out without his soul. Obviously, he killed Jenny.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Buffy ? When ?

Those Knight guys all stand up and wave hello.

 

[Btvs fan]

Those Knight guys all stand up and wave hello.

The writer Steve Deknight said it was self defence not murder

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The writer Steve Deknight said it was self defence not murder

I don't think either myself or @thetopher said she murdered them; just killed them.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

In my opinion Spike is the best partner she's ever had. Bangel bored me to tears 90% of the time. It's not that it was a sexless relationship either. His whining about having a soul did that to me. I get he felt horrible about what he did but he made it unbearable to watch. Riley and her just didn't make sense. He always tried to be just like her or better. He didn't comprehend that he was only human and the things he did were beyond reckless. He let vamps feed on him for God's sake! Just because it happened to her, which the only one that was her doing was Angel. He had to or he'd die. Spike though, he was incredible! I get what happened in "Seeing Red" should've changed my mind but it didn't and it won't. He did so many things that were against his nature. He loved Dru and Buffy without a soul. He protected both of them also. That's what made him different than Angel, big time. Angel had no remorse for averything he did while he had no soul. Spike did. Angel raped, killed, tortured ect but everyone acted like it never happened and still loved him when he was cursed again. That's what makes me angry. Spike did this one thing that you seen while he was soulless because he was hurting and confused but he can't be forgiven? How is that fair? Because we seen the attempted rape but never actually seen Angel rape anyone when it's clearly insinuated that he did that more than once. Spike wasn't cursed. He went to the otherside of the world to get his soul so he could be capable of being loved. He did that outta love. He only wanted to be seen like Angel was seen by her. He is very capable of redemption. He proved that time and again. Being tortured by Glory because he wouldn't betray Buffy and give up Dawn who he loved too. Protecting Dawn, Buffy and the Scoobies. Even though Xander and Giles treated him like the gum on their shoe. The only one who was around Buffy that really never treated him like crap was Joyce. She treated him like the man he is. It just disgusts me how much he's hated when Angels done some many worse things. Spike has a poet's heart, even when he's soulless. It doesn't hurt that James is beautiful either.

I'll always love my Sid-Vicious-singing Spike over whiney Angel. (Plus, Angel's a pedophile with a soul. I can never get over that). However, I understand Buffy's feelings for Angel. The first love thing, that's why it was so intense. The show follows a standard American ideology. Angel's Mr. Right for our All-American, white, middle-class Buffy, while Spike represents counterculture, the opposition, what we're not supposed to identify with (hence the foreign accent). We can be entertained by him, but we are not to love him. Same with Faith. But, being from the counterculture and the marginalized myself, I prefer them both (especially Faith to Buffy). That's why Spike and Buffy don't belong together and the more I think about it, I don't want them to be together. Their passion drives us in the later seasons, and it's nice to dream, but it just isn't real love. According to the laws of American television at the time (which wasn't very progressive, even in the 90s and early '00s), it can't be. There's no evidence within the show that would support Spike being morally superior to Angel in any way, that's just not going to happen. But, based on what we as Spike fans know of his character, we know who the better man really is. (Hint: it's not captain forehead).

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I think Spike was better off with Dru, he was a lot happier. I dislike him getting a soul for Buffy because of the idea that he has to change a part of himself that he had no issue with before (the lack of a soul), in order to be "acceptable" to her. I hated how Spuffy became Spike's sole storyline.

Also as more of a general thing; I dislike how when bad things happen to the male characters, it's more or less brushed off as a joke or nothing, yet if it had been one of the female characters then it would've been addressed. Faith's rape of Buffy wasn't addressed because that would also mean addressing Riley's victimhood and the writers couldn't have that.

(Plus, Angel's a pedophile with a soul..

Angel is not a paedophile. He doesn't go around sexually abusing children. Buffy was 16 when she started a relationship with Angel and 17 when they slept together. 16 is the age of consent in many places so they weren't doing anything illegal. It is shown many times that Angel and Buffy truly love each other. Whilst laws do vary state to state, it's ridiculous the can go to one state and be totally within their remit to sleep together yet a few miles to the left and they'd be in trouble with the law for the very same thing.