I don't know about everybody else but Spike is the best partner for Buffy yet.

[thetopher]

Just like Angel. I just find it unfair how many people are trying the whole Angel/Angelus thing and wont even see that Spike did help without a soul.

That's the thing, for many of us the soul/no soul thing actually matters. We distinguish between demon and man. So its entirely fair to disregard every action pre-soul. So Angel didn't murder Jenny Calendar and soulled Spike didn't sexually assault Buffy.

The problem is that many Spike fans want it both ways. Spike protected Dawn without a soul because he loved Buffy but lets forget about all the bad he did as a demon because its not fair.
...But its entirely fair, because he did both. He sexually assaulted Buffy and then went and got a soul. Those two events are intrinsically linked, and yet we're supposed to disregard one entirely because why?

That's not getting into the fact that- according to many of the writers- you can regard Spike as a 'special' vampire who had some extra humanity when turned. Therefore making him more culpable than any other vampire, despite the fact that he often refuses to take any responsibility. Buffy used him, Angel made him a monster, his Mummy coddled him and made him weak, nothing is ever really his fault.
But all the good stuff? That's all him. To hear him tell it, he reformed way before Faith did- way back in S4 apparently.

Angel's a pedophile with a soul.

No, he really isn't. There is no evidence that he is. He's never been sexually attracted to children.

we know who the better man really is

Is it the man who mocks the person that he's wronged him after viciously beating them? Or is it the guy who forgives the man who kidnapped and traumatized his son in a bid for vengeance?
Yeah, we know.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

The scene was not to show how hurt and confused Spike was.

And yet the fact that this is still the take away to some viewers makes me lose faith in humanity. Blargh.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Bangel was just a mk1 Twilight, I was so bored by it. It's also creepy as well with the whole 15 year old Buffy and 28 yr old Angel staring from a blacked out car 🤢

(Plus, Angel's a pedophile with a soul. I can never get over that).

Then why isn't it creepy with Spike and Buffy? He's not that much younger than Angel.

I love how many people are defending Angel when what I said is my opinion. I thought that was allowed here😂 I'm only saying that even when Angel gets his soul back he's forgiven. Spike isn't. That's why it's not fair.

You are certainly allowed your opinion. But so is everyone else. It's not about fairness, this is a discussion board. For discussion.

I dislike him getting a soul for Buffy because of the idea that he has to change a part of himself that he had no issue with before (the lack of a soul), in order to be "acceptable" to her.

I totally agree. She should have been able to love him for who he was.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Then why isn't it creepy with Spike and Buffy? He's not that much younger than Angel.

Because Buffy is older.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Because Buffy is older.

Not much...I guess it depends when you believe he started being obsessed with her...

 

[DaniRose20]

Then why isn't it creepy with Spike and Buffy? He's not that much younger than Angel.



You are certainly allowed your opinion. But so is everyone else. It's not about fairness, this is a discussion board. For discussion.



I totally agree. She should have been able to love him for who he was.

I'm just saying that I do not have rape fantasies like someone's saying on here. It's my opinion that I don't acknowledge what soulless Spike did to Buffy in "Seeing Red". He was soulless. That was the point. A soulful Spike never would've done that. He was confused and hurt. She always said no through their whole relationship but still continued to sleep with him. 🤷‍♀️

 

[spikenbuffy]

I totally agree. She should have been able to love him for who he was.

Well as a Spuffy fan, I don't think she should love him nor accept him as a soulless vampire who doesn't kill just because he 's chipped IMO. And it's not like Spike has a reason for living anyway. He's chipped and doesn't have a conscience he's nothing. So he wants to change that & he's in love in a twisted way with Buffy so.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

Then why isn't it creepy with Spike and Buffy? He's not that much younger than Angel.

Just simple math. Yes, 16 is the legal age of consent, but Angel, a grown man (especially at over 200 years old) fell for Buffy when she was 15. Technically, he's a pedophile. Adults who could parent their teenage crushes are pedophiles. If he was actually of collegiate age like she first told Joyce then sure, it's not that creepy (although those creeps in Reptile Boy put me in the same mindframe). It's not really the age difference, it's the legal age. Spike doesn't even start to show feelings for Buffy until she's an adult. What I'm not saying, though, is that Angel is the only pedophile in the show. It's actually a pretty recurrent element.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

Well as a Spuffy fan, I don't think she should love him nor accept him as a soulless vampire who doesn't kill just because he 's chipped IMO. And it's not like Spike has a reason for living anyway. He's chipped and doesn't have a conscience he's nothing. So he wants to change that & he's in love in a twisted way with Buffy so.

I agree, the relationship pre-soul was abusive and degrading. I've always loved Spike regardless, but Spike and Buffy together were not a good fit before he got ensouled.

He's never been sexually attracted to children

A grown man sexually attracted to a 15 year old is a pedophile. I like Angel, but there's no argument against that. It's not something we're supposed to think about really, just part of the story.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

She always said no through their whole relationship but still continued to sleep with him.

I find this excuse unconvincing. Spike is soulless, and so he does not have an inner imperative to do good. We also sometimes see that he has a limited understanding of morality, such as in his argument with Buffy over Katrina's murder. However, when Spike assaults Buffy, he understands the significance of what he does perfectly well. When Buffy pushes him off, he knows that he has ruined his chances with her and he understands why.

A grown man sexually attracted to a 15 year old is a pedophile. I like Angel, but there's no argument against that. It's not something we're supposed to think about really, just part of the story.

You could at worst accuse Angel of being an ephebophile. Having sexual relations with 15 year olds (and even 17 year olds) is against the law many places, but Buffy is biologically a sexually mature woman. She is not a child with a child's body.

 

[thetopher]

A grown man sexually attracted to a 15 year old is a pedophile.

No. That's not what a pedophile is.

 

[GraceK]

Just simple math. Yes, 16 is the legal age of consent, but Angel, a grown man (especially at over 200 years old) fell for Buffy when she was 15. Technically, he's a pedophile. Adults who could parent their teenage crushes are pedophiles.

No. No. Actually no. Pedophiles like CHILDREN. Prepubescent. Not 15 year olds. If your going to fling around around big words and accusations at least do your research. It’s not hard.

Definition
Pedophilia is a paraphilia that involves an abnormal interest in children. A paraphilia is a disorder that is characterized by recurrent intense sexual urges and sexually arousing fantasies generally involving: nonhuman objects; the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner (not merely simulated); or animals, children, or other nonconsenting persons. Pedophilia is also a psychosexual disorder in which the fantasy or actual act of engaging in sexual activity with prepubertal children is the preferred or exclusive means of achieving sexual excitement and gratification. It may be directed toward children of the same sex or children of the other sex. Some pedophiles are attracted to both boys and girls. Some are attracted only to children, while others are attracted to adults as well as to children.
Pedophilia is defined by mental health professionals as a mental disorder, but the American legal system defines acting on a pedophilic urge as a criminal act.



Read more: Pedophilia - children, causes, DSM, functioning, therapy, adults, person, people

There you go.

And , Spike shows an immediate sexual interest in Buffy in season 2, when she is 16. They start having sex when she is 20, and he starts stalking her and sniffing her panties when she is 19. Angel sleeps with her when she is 17. So let’s not get out of control here and start throwing around terms like “ pedophile” just because you don’t like a ship.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

You could at worst accuse Angel of being an ephebophile. Having sexual relations with 15 year olds (and even 17 year olds) is against the law many places, but Buffy is biologically a sexually mature woman. She is not a child with a child's body.

Buffy's not sexually mature at 15, she's still in the middle of puberty. However, I can see where you're coming from, taking into account the "back in the day" factor (which was still gross and nowadays we pretty much call that statutory rape). I've never heard that word before, though. I was using the word pedophile generally to describe someone who's of age and attracted to someone who's clearly not. If I'm wrong about the definition I'll be corrected on the term. But my intent in using the word still stands the same, regardless of it's unpopularity. Given Angel's 200 years of sexual maturity, that's what he is to me.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

No. No. Actually no. Pedophiles like CHILDREN. Prepubescent. Not 15 year olds. If your going to fling around around big words and accusations at least do your research. It’s not hard.

Definition
Pedophilia is a paraphilia that involves an abnormal interest in children. A paraphilia is a disorder that is characterized by recurrent intense sexual urges and sexually arousing fantasies generally involving: nonhuman objects; the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner (not merely simulated); or animals, children, or other nonconsenting persons. Pedophilia is also a psychosexual disorder in which the fantasy or actual act of engaging in sexual activity with prepubertal children is the preferred or exclusive means of achieving sexual excitement and gratification. It may be directed toward children of the same sex or children of the other sex. Some pedophiles are attracted to both boys and girls. Some are attracted only to children, while others are attracted to adults as well as to children.
Pedophilia is defined by mental health professionals as a mental disorder, but the American legal system defines acting on a pedophilic urge as a criminal act.



Read more: Pedophilia - children, causes, DSM, functioning, therapy, adults, person, people

There you go.

And , Spike shows an immediate sexual interest in Buffy in season 2, when she is 16. They start having sex when she is 20, and he starts stalking her and sniffing her panties when she is 19. Angel sleeps with her when she is 17. So let’s not get out of control here and start throwing around terms like “ pedophile” just because you don’t like a ship.

Okay one, your language is bordering on attack, we're here to discuss. Two, I'm not flinging around "big words" because I don't like a ship. Like I just posted a minute ago, I've always understood the term as a general umbrella of attraction to underage persons, so let's not get hasty and start internet banging. I'm fine with Bangel, I just like Spuffy better. And why is it that almost everyone who replied to this post did it to bash on Spike but when a negative thing is said about Angel everyone wants to jump the gun? Isn't that against the website rules in the first place? Calm down.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I was using the word pedophile generally to describe someone who's of age and attracted to someone who's clearly not.

People really throw that word around pretty carelesslessy considering the egregiousness of it. I can't for the life of me understand the concept of fans saying 'I like Angel but he was a pedophile.' if that is truly how you see the character (I of course do not) how can you conceivably like him? Why would you even watch a show like that??? It boggles my mind.

 

[GraceK]

Okay one, your language is bordering on attack, we're here to discuss. Two, I'm not flinging around "big words" because I don't like a ship. Like I just posted a minute ago, I've always understood the term as a general umbrella of attraction to underage persons, so let's not get hasty and start internet banging. I'm fine with Bangel, I just like Spuffy better. And why is it that almost everyone who replied to this post did it to bash on Spike but when a negative thing is said about Angel everyone wants to jump the gun? Isn't that against the website rules in the first place? Calm down.

Because people who are replying are replying with facts and are being met with “ but Angel is a pedophile and just sucks! Nah nah !!”. There have been legitimate responses on here, that have been actually written by Spike fans, myself included, and the only rebuttals have been nonsense that have been hypocritical attacks on Angels character. So yes, I’m a little annoyed. This argument that Angel is a rapist and pedophile but Spike is a
Misunderstood dumpling is getting old . And that’s why people think the Spuffy fandom is toxic. Because there is a minority that refuses to see anything at all bad about his character, bashes Angel, become rape apologists, and come on boards to pick fights and start ship wars with incoherent nonsense that can’t be backed up.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

People really throw that word around pretty carelesslessy considering the egregiousness of it. I can't for the life of me understand the concept of fans saying 'I like Angel but he was a pedophile.' if that is truly how you see the character (I of course do not) how can you conceivably like him? Why would you even watch a show like that??? It boggles my mind.

Being that people so "carelessly" throw that word around, I've never needed a reason to look it up. So my culturally-influenced use of the word should, if anything, be excused. Like I said before, the show carries that tone in various ways, like Sid the dummy. Lots of shows have undertones that if we really cared we shouldn't be watching. Buffy has xenophobic, homophobic, sexist, and racist undertones, doesn't mean I'm going to stop watching a show I grew up on, one that's apart of my identity. So what exactly boggles you about this? Angel's a great guy in his own show, maybe I should've made that distinction? Doesn't really matter either way.

 

[DayDreamer27]

I'm just saying that I do not have rape fantasies like someone's saying on here. It's my opinion that I don't acknowledge what soulless Spike did to Buffy in "Seeing Red". He was soulless. That was the point. A soulful Spike never would've done that. He was confused and hurt. She always said no through their whole relationship but still continued to sleep with him. 🤷‍♀️

Things were clearly different in the bathroom. It is true that Buffy has told Spike no in the past, but it never had weight on it. She just talked, but never physically resisted.

The morning after,Spike grabs her. She says stop & he dares her to make him. She the squirms a bit & kisses him.

The Balcony scene. She says don't, he again dares her to stop him. She does nothing.

The handcuffs. He asks if she trusts him. She says never, and they used the handcuffs.

I think the episode was Gone. She uses words, but never stops his physical advances. She angrily tells him to get out, and he's right in her face digging in her pants and she just stands there moaning.

HOWEVER! The bathroom was very different. She is bluntly honest with him. She admits she has feelings for him, but it's not love. Because she doesn't trust him.

So he tries what he always has, he gets close to her & touches her, and she does something she didn't before, which is seriously push him back. He tries again to grab her, and again she pushes him away and tells him to stop. It was clear then & there he was not dealing with the same weak-willed Buffy who gave into primal urges. She was dead serious that the sex was finished. Then he knocks her into the tub and re-hurts her & she tells him to stop because she's hurt. But apparently he didn't hear or care about that either.

It was very clear Buffy did not want to sleep with him there. But for some reason, it took her kicking him against the wall & crying while holding her robe up before he got the message. She then tells him it's stuff like that which stops her from ever loving him. Spike says he didn't -and Buffy says he didn't do anything because she actually did stop him that time, which she should've done long ago, but didn't.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

Because people who are replying are replying with facts and are being met with “ but Angel is a pedophile and just sucks! Nah nah !!”. There have been legitimate responses on here, that have been actually written by Spike fans, myself included, and the only rebuttals have been nonsense that have been hypocritical attacks on Angels character. So yes, I’m a little annoyed. This argument that Angel is a rapist and pedophile but Spike is a
Misunderstood dumpling is getting old . And that’s why people think the Spuffy fandom is toxic. Because there is a minority that refuses to see anything at all bad about his character, bashes Angel, become rape apologists, and come on boards to pick fights and start ship wars with incoherent nonsense that can’t be backed up.

I never said Angel was a rapist, and I used facts to support my argument. Plus you definitely oversimplified my statement into some lazy trolling thing that I just didn't do. So how am I in this argument? Also there are pros and cons to both characters. I actually just happened to really think about the pedophilia thing a few hours ago before even coming on the website, it was just fresh in my mind that's why I happened to mention it. I'm not familiar with other people saying this so excuse me if I pressed a wrong button. And I believe the fight was picked with me, not the other way around. This is also my first time posting on a board. I've been to this site before but never signed up. So in actually I'm not really a part of the group you're yelling at. I just came here to talk Buffy the way I see it, like everyone else who's typing. Even after explaining my verbiage, I'm still getting ragged on?

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Buffy's not sexually mature at 15, she's still in the middle of puberty. However, I can see where you're coming from, taking into account the "back in the day" factor (which was still gross and nowadays we pretty much call that statutory rape). I've never heard that word before, though. I was using the word pedophile generally to describe someone who's of age and attracted to someone who's clearly not. If I'm wrong about the definition I'll be corrected on the term. But my intent in using the word still stands the same, regardless of it's unpopularity. Given Angel's 200 years of sexual maturity, that's what he is to me.

Buffy has every appearance of being sexually mature. She has breasts and she carries tampons in her purse. It's not like I am her doctor or anything, but she certainly looks to be a woman in the biological sense. 200 years of sexual maturity makes no sense to me, whether you are thinking biologically or psychologically. You don't mature indefinitely. We're talking about people, not wine or whiskey.

You're not being very clear at all. The paedophile accusation is at best hyperbole. Statutory rape is a legal term, and it would only be applicable in certain places. The sexual encounter in "Surprise" would not be defined as such where I lived. Many people—myself included—would still frown upon a sexual relationship between a 27 year old and 17 year old who still lives with her parents.

My point is: If you're gonna go all, There's no argument against this, then I think we should be able to expect some clarity. You need to be able to say what aspect of the relationship you take issue with and why.

I find your quote excuse unconvincing too, but for different reasons

This was more or less my point, except I would not be so quick to give Spike a pass for the previous encounters just because Buffy did not resists physically.