I don't know about everybody else but Spike is the best partner for Buffy yet.

[GraceK]

I never said Angel was a rapist, and I used facts to support my argument. Plus you definitely oversimplified my statement into some lazy trolling thing that I just didn't do. So how am I in this argument? Also there are pros and cons to both characters. I actually just happened to really think about the pedophilia thing a few hours ago before even coming on the website, it was just fresh in my mind that's why I happened to mention it. I'm not familiar with other people saying this so excuse me if I pressed a wrong button. And I believe the fight was picked with me, not the other way around. This is also my first time posting on a board. I've been to this site before but never signed up. So in actually I'm not really a part of the group you're yelling at. I just came here to talk Buffy the way I see it, like everyone else who's typing. Even after explaining my verbiage, I'm still getting ragged on?

Your right I apologize . This isn’t about you. I’ve been involved in this conversation for way to too long and you happened to stumble in calling Angel a pedophile and tipped me over. I’m sorry that my tone was slightly agressive.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

Okay, I see your point. My point is that Angel is psychologically and sexually mature, and all other ways one can mature. Buffy, who is only fifteen when Angel becomes attracted to her (I'm referring to when he first saw her in LA, not their sexual encounters), is neither physically, mentally, emotionally, or even sexually mature. She's in the middle of her puberty stage. Yes, she has breasts and fully developed sexual organs but that's not justification for the age difference and her status as a minority. She's a teenager, he's a grown man. We find it offensive when a teacher lusts after his high school student, how is this any different? And when I mentioned statutory rape I wasn't talking about the show I was talking about the old tradition if marrying teen girls to old men, which us where I feel most people get there justification from for this matter.

 

[spikenbuffy]

Off topic : We have the same problem of Pedophilia accusation in the Sailor Moon fandom, Sailor moon, the heroine (14 years old), starts a long term relationship with the love of her life who is in university (21-25 years old) in the old anime of the 90's. This is the main couple in SM and many people are shocked to see this relationship and see this as pedophilia. Japan is different from other countries which sexual majority is 13 years old. It can shock people from America or whenever.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

Your right I apologize . This isn’t about you. I’ve been involved in this conversation for way to too long and you happened to stumble in calling Angel a pedophile and tipped me over. I’m sorry that my tone was slightly agressive.

Thank you, I apologize for any offense.

If you're gonna go all, There's no argument against this, then I think we should be able to expect some clarity. You need to be able to say what aspect of the relationship you take issue with and why.

I didn't quote you in my reply but I think I provided more clarity in my last reply.

 

[DayDreamer27]

But as stated, if you're gonna argue against Angel, the same applies to Spike. As people stated, Marsters said he was playing that Spike had a sick attraction to the slayer and that's how he played it. Buffy was 16. So how is Angel liking 15 Buffy different than Spike liking 16 Buffy? And he only met Buffy after she was 16. Angel just had the chance of seeing her a year sooner than Spike.

And nobody on the show treats Angel as a sex offender. lol Giles knew about their relationship & had no issues with it. When Joyce found out, she thought he was too old, but we don't see her throwing accusations and wanting to call the police for rape. She does threaten to call the cops when she thinks Angel is stalking her daughter. Then she founds out about vampires & the truth on Angel, and she still doesn't accuse him of molesting her underage child. She just thinks he should break up with Buffy to as not to jeopardize any future she may be willing to toss away for him.

Then if we get into areas of rape, we can't forget all of Spike's sick behavior. Stealing & sniffing Buffy's panties. Dressing Harmony up like her. Building sexbots of her, listening to her have sex with Riley, and even kidnapping her & tying her up in this crypt. ALl of that stuff is creepy & inappropriate. And something genuine predators do in real life. Compared to the controversial example of age, which is seen differently depending on where you live. Age of consent in the UK is 16. In Canada it was 14, but Idk if it still is. Japan is 12 I think. May be 13.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

Off topic : We have the same problem of Pedophilia accusation in the Sailor Moon fandom, Sailor moon, the heroine (14 years old), starts a long term relationship with the love of her life who is in university (21-25 years old) in the old anime of the 90's. This is the main couple in SM and many people are shocked to see this relationship and see this as pedophilia. Japan is different from other countries which sexual majority is 13 years old. It can shock people from America or whenever.

I don't think I see it so much as shocking, as I've always dated older and as a result dated adults in my teens. I think it's just so permeated popular culture that it goes unnoticed but people have a different reaction to real life relationships. When I actually took notice of the maturity and age difference between Buffy and Angel I felt more uneasy with the creators and the message than the character himself. I think that's the point I missed. It's not Angel, it's what he represents.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Well as a Spuffy fan, I don't think she should love him nor accept him as a soulless vampire who doesn't kill just because he 's chipped IMO.

I'm not saying Buffy should love him soulless. What I am saying is that if Buffy was going to love him, then she should've loved him for who he was (a soulless vampire) because the connotation as it stands is that she couldn't love him for who he was so he had to go and change a part of himself that he had no issue with beforehand in order to be considered "acceptable" to her.

It would be no different to Buffy having no issue being the slayer but then feeling like she has to play the damsel in distress around Riley just so she's "acceptable" to him.

Does that make sense?

Just simple math. Yes, 16 is the legal age of consent, but Angel, a grown man (especially at over 200 years old) fell for Buffy when she was 15.

Did he though? He didn't even speak to her until she was 16 and in Sunnydale and he half expected her to die. As for his line "I loved you from the moment I first saw you", I think that's him retroactively adding an emotion that was not actually present at the time because of their relationship. It's like people who believe they were in "love at first sight" with their partner. Sure, they may have felt attracted to their partner upon first meeting them but it was lust, not love because love is such a complex emotion that needs time to grow. However if things had progressed well from that point on eg dating, marriage, children, etc then they might look back and say retroactively that it was love at first sight because their subsequent relationship is colouring their memory.

Angel felt sorry for Buffy when he first saw her. Her "innocence" is stripped from her when she is called to be the slayer and it does push him to clean himself up and try to help her. It is only after their subsequent relationship that he says "I loved you the moment I first saw you". Angel is very protective of Buffy during their relationship. It is very likely he felt protectiveness for her when she was first called, however it was a different protectiveness eg a protectiveness out of compassion rather than love. Can you see what I'm trying to say?

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

But as stated, if you're gonna argue against Angel, the same applies to Spike. As people stated, Marsters said he was playing that Spike had a sick attraction to the slayer and that's how he played it. Buffy was 16. So how is Angel liking 15 Buffy different than Spike liking 16 Buffy? And he only met Buffy after she was 16. Angel just had the chance of seeing her a year sooner than Spike.

And nobody on the show treats Angel as a sex offender. lol Giles knew about their relationship & had no issues with it. When Joyce found out, she thought he was too old, but we don't see her throwing accusations and wanting to call the police for rape. She does threaten to call the cops when she thinks Angel is stalking her daughter. Then she founds out about vampires & the truth on Angel, and she still doesn't accuse him of molesting her underage child. She just thinks he should break up with Buffy to as not to jeopardize any future she may be willing to toss away for him.

Then if we get into areas of rape, we can't forget all of Spike's sick behavior. Stealing & sniffing Buffy's panties. Dressing Harmony up like her. Building sexbots of her, listening to her have sex with Riley, and even kidnapping her & tying her up in this crypt. ALl of that stuff is creepy & inappropriate. And something genuine predators do in real life. Compared to the controversial example of age, which is seen differently depending on where you live. Age of consent in the UK is 16. In Canada it was 14, but Idk if it still is. Japan is 12 I think. May be 13.

See, I never read Spike as being attracted to Buffy when they first met. And when Drusilla mentions it later on it doesn't make sense to me, it strikes me as a continuity error. A lot of things portrayed in the later scenes that are said to have history just don't feel rooted in the original storyline. You can tell when things have been written in, developed over time. Spike wasn't even supposed to last as long as he did. I also haven't heard James Marsters say that. I just went off of my own interpretation.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

I'm not saying Buffy should love him soulless. What I am saying is that if Buffy was going to love him, then she should've loved him for who he was (a soulless vampire) because the connotation as it stands is that she couldn't love him for who he was so he had to go and change a part of himself that he had no issue with beforehand in order to be considered "acceptable" to her.

It would be no different to Buffy having no issue being the slayer but then feeling like she has to play the damsel in distress around Riley just so she's "acceptable" to him.

Does that make sense?



Did he though? He didn't even speak to her until she was 16 and in Sunnydale and he half expected her to die. As for his line "I loved you from the moment I first saw you", I think that's him retroactively adding an emotion that was not actually present at the time because of their relationship. It's like people who believe they were in "love at first sight" with their partner. Sure, they may have felt attracted to their partner upon first meeting them but it was lust, not love because love is such a complex emotion that needs time to grow. However if things had progressed well from that point on eg dating, marriage, children, etc then they might look back and say retroactively that it was love at first sight because their subsequent relationship is colouring their memory.

Angel felt sorry for Buffy when he first saw her. Her "innocence" is stripped from her when she is called to be the slayer and it does push him to clean himself up and try to help her. It is only after their subsequent relationship that he says "I loved you the moment I first saw you". Angel is very protective of Buffy during their relationship. It is very likely he felt protectiveness for her when she was first called, however it was a different protectiveness eg a protectiveness out of compassion rather than love. Can you see what I'm trying to say?

I can see what you're saying, I just always took that quote at face value, as in he meant what he said. That he saw all that pain and that moment she had to grow up too fast and he fell in love with her. But with that understanding I see I shouldn't be using that example as a sexual attraction. You're right about that.

 

[Btvs fan]

Then why isn't it creepy with Spike and Buffy? He's not that much younger than Angel.



You are certainly allowed your opinion. But so is everyone else. It's not about fairness, this is a discussion board. For discussion.



I totally agree. She should have been able to love him for who he was.

I found it creepy and the difference being that when Spike and Buffy date, yes they are older.

She could never love him Souless, which I'm sure you know. So he fought for his soul back.

 

[GraceK]

See, I never read Spike as being attracted to Buffy when they first met.

I also haven't heard James Marsters say that

If you watch interviews on the special features on the DVDs, James Marsters talks about how he plays up a sexual attraction to Buffy immediately in School Hard while she is dancing in the Bronze. If your really interested, you can listen to a podcast called Slayerfest98 on the episode fool for love, where they interview James Marsters. He gives a very in depth interview on his character Spike and how he played him. It’s really interesting.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

If you watch interviews on the special features on the DVDs, James Marsters talks about how he plays up a sexual attraction to Buffy immediately in School Hard while she is dancing in the Bronze. If your really interested, you can listen to a podcast called Slayerfest98 on the episode fool for love, where they interview James Marsters. He gives a very in depth interview on his character Spike and how he played him. It’s really interesting.

Ha, I've had the DVDs for over a decade and never touched the special features. That's something new to do today. And thanks, I'll check that out.

 

[Btvs fan]

Most people on both shows have killed people. Wesley and Gunn have both killed in cold blood and nobody cares. Connor as well. Buffy and Willow too. Faith (obviously).

Spike might not have killed willingly- not that he cared about the innocent she was made to kill in S7 for very long- but he brutally beat Wood, bit him and was willing to kill him 'if he looked at him funny'.
He's also attacked Anya, Xander and Faith with zero provocation.

And Spike is proud of murdering two slayers, forces for good. Presumably if he'd killed Buffy in 'School Hard' he would've felt very proud of that as well. Because she's a slayer and he's a vampire and that's the way the game is played, right?

It's also worth noting that by S11 Spike is still willing to kill unarmed humans who are threatening him, he just needs Buffy's permission first.

Basically Spike is not righteous by any stretch. The very idea is laughable.



Buffy did it first and more often. At least when Harmony was around Angel she was working for him rather than killing and recruiting people.

Wood attacked set him up to kill him.

Not sure which Xander and Anya youre talking about ?

Faith, well she was giving as much as she was taking and its interesting that you never mention the fact that Buffy was smacking her about every other episode either.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

See, I never read Spike as being attracted to Buffy when they first met. And when Drusilla mentions it later on it doesn't make sense to me, it strikes me as a continuity error.

I completely agree. When Spike talks about the Sprusilla break up in Lovers Walk, it's a different version to what supposedly happened in FFL, yet he tells two different people the same thing which suggests he was telling the truth about the breakup. The only discrepancies in his storytelling is his response to Dru's "Fine" but that could be him trying to make himself look better than he actually reacted. Other than that, the two stories match almost word for word and his emotional responses eg at Dru's suggestion that they could "still be friends" aren't something that could be faked.

It just makes it easier to assume everything from Season 5 onwards is the Dawnverse which affected everyone's memories hence the retcons whilst Seasons 1-4 are the true continuity before Dawn's existence messed things up.

 

[thetopher]

Wood attacked set him up to kill him.

And Spike beat him brutally and then bit him for no reason. It's the biting and threatening that is uncalled for. Wood was, at that moment, no threat.

Not sure which Xander and Anya youre talking about ?

Spike knocks out Xander with one punch in 'Sleeper', and he attacks Anya in 'Beneath You'.

Faith, well she was giving as much as she was taking

Oh, sure Faith kicked his ass, but he started the fight and punched her for basically telling him to calm down. Not acceptable.
I think Spike has issues with strong women getting in his face.

its interesting that you never mention the fact that Buffy was smacking her about every other episode either.

Oh, I have said in other threads that I have a problem with Buffy's unproved violence towards Faith. But I understand there is a history there and also Buffy is not exactly in her right mind emotionally speaking. Basically she has way more justification than Spike, who has none.

Spike punching people without reason is pretty much in character it seems. He later does it to Angel in 'Destiny' btw.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

She could never love him Souless, which I'm sure you know.

She did love him souless though.

 

[Btvs fan]

And Spike beat him brutally and then bit him for no reason. It's the biting and threatening that is uncalled for. Wood was, at that moment, no threat.



Spike knocks out Xander with one punch in 'Sleeper', and he attacks Anya in 'Beneath You'.



Oh, sure Faith kicked his ass, but he started the fight and punched her for basically telling him to calm down. Not acceptable.
I think Spike has issues with strong women getting in his face.



Oh, I have said in other threads that I have a problem with Buffy's unproved violence towards Faith. But I understand there is a history there and also Buffy is not exactly in her right mind emotionally speaking. Basically she has way more justification than Spike, who has none.

Spike punching people without reason is pretty much in character it seems. He later does it to Angel in 'Destiny' btw.

And like he said he gave Wood a pass because of it. That was a warning to not try that again.

Xander was not letting him out while he was desperate to prove he wasnt killing those girls.

Anya was a vengeance demon who was turning people into worms and your using that !

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

Spike punching people without reason is pretty much in character it seems.

But it's pretty much in character for everyone, wouldn't you say? For the most part, violence is just how things are handled in the Buffyverse. Buffy punched Giles in the face for going after Angel in season 2. And Buffy would often greet Spike by hitting him. Buffy and Angel had that fistfight in Angel when she tried to intervene with Faith and that was all out of emotion. It's just how people say hello in California.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

A grown man sexually attracted to a 15 year old is a pedophile. I like Angel, but there's no argument against that. It's not something we're supposed to think about really, just part of the story.

Actually, a 15 year old is an adolescent, not a child...anyone 12 and under is. Angel was involved with a teenager, not a little kid.

 

[Btvs fan]

She did love him souless though.

Did she ? even Spike (after he got his Soul) didnt think so in Never Leave Me.