I don't know about everybody else but Spike is the best partner for Buffy yet.

[Skanky Vamp]

Did she ?

Yes, she did.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

She did love him souless though

She loved Angel soulless too, although there was some pretense to that. Still, being without a soul can't be the deciding factor. Buffy lied.

 

[Btvs fan]

I'll always love my Sid-Vicious-singing Spike over whiney Angel. (Plus, Angel's a pedophile with a soul. I can never get over that). However, I understand Buffy's feelings for Angel. The first love thing, that's why it was so intense. The show follows a standard American ideology. Angel's Mr. Right for our All-American, white, middle-class Buffy, while Spike represents counterculture, the opposition, what we're not supposed to identify with (hence the foreign accent). We can be entertained by him, but we are not to love him. Same with Faith. But, being from the counterculture and the marginalized myself, I prefer them both (especially Faith to Buffy). That's why Spike and Buffy don't belong together and the more I think about it, I don't want them to be together. Their passion drives us in the later seasons, and it's nice to dream, but it just isn't real love. According to the laws of American television at the time (which wasn't very progressive, even in the 90s and early '00s), it can't be. There's no evidence within the show that would support Spike being morally superior to Angel in any way, that's just not going to happen. But, based on what we as Spike fans know of his character, we know who the better man really is. (Hint: it's not captain forehead).

The irony about the whole Sid and Nancy thing, is that Spike looks and dresses nothing like Sid. Also Nancy was a blond haired American not English brunette (even more ironic Juliet sounds more English now than she did on the show as Dru).

You make an interesting point on the whole counter culture argument and how they like there standard All American heroes to look and act. The broody tall guy with the big forehead whose laconic. That seems to be the prototype. Spike did come in and bust that up a bit didn't he.

Using 1 example, John Wayne was meant to be the personification of the Mans man. The irony being he made sure to avoid military service during Ww2 when other more famous actors at the time did serve. It's a reason he and the Director John Ford fell out.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

While we're on the topic, let me clarify something. Angel fell in love with Buffy when he first saw her. He truly loved her. And she loved him.

Spike blew into town, saw Buffy in action, and immediately planned on killing her. Yet he never managed to. Then he gets a chip in his head and can't hurt anyone. Vampiric emasculation, in other words. Since he can't kill Buffy, he becomes obsessed with her, and convinces himself he loves her. Which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever witnessed, frankly. Eventually, he and Buffy start doing the horizontal bop...but even she knows that she's just using him like a convenient sex toy. And oh yeah! Spike tries to rape her. Yeah, there's a real love story. (NOT!)

Buffy never loved Spike. And Spike was merely obsessed with her, not "in love." There WAS no "Spike and Buffy relationship." He was never her boyfriend, never her true love, just a convenient scratch when she got an itch.

Angel is, and always will be, the love of Buffy's life.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

Actually, a 15 year old is an adolescent, not a child...anyone 12 and under is. Angel was involved with a teenager, not a little kid.

I didn't mean that in a ride way, I just realized what I said. But like I said before, either way it's not right.

 

[Btvs fan]

Slighlty off topic but another thing. Why are most US shows always set around High School. Not even College it's always School. Why is that, what's with the school obsession ?

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

While we're on the topic, let me clarify something. Angel fell in love with Buffy when he first saw her. He truly loved her. And she loved him.

Spike blew into town, saw Buffy in action, and immediately planned on killing her. Yet he never managed to. Then he gets a chip in his head and can't hurt anyone. Vampiric emasculation, in other words. Since he can't kill Buffy, he becomes obsessed with her, and convinces himself he loves her. Which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever witnessed, frankly. Eventually, he and Buffy start doing the horizontal bop...but even she knows that she's just using him like a convenient sex toy. And oh yeah! Spike tries to rape her. Yeah, there's a real love story. (NOT!)

Buffy never loved Spike. And Spike was merely obsessed with her, not "in love." There WAS no "Spike and Buffy relationship." He was never her boyfriend, never her true love, just a convenient scratch when she got an itch.

Angel is, and always will be, the love of Buffy's life.

If you're only thinking pre-soul Spike, then yeah, you can see it that way. But there are different types of love and it's apparent that Buffy loves Spike in some way in season 7 and onwards. The show has portrayed more than one instance of someone being in love with more than one person at the same time. So to say that Angel is her only true love isn't at all necessarily true. Even in the comics she expresses a dilemma in defining her love for the two of them. I don't think if Buffy had no love for Spike, if we'd only been exposed to the abusive relationship of season 6, that there'd be as many people arguing for them. And if anything, I don't think shipping is about who loved who more, it's bout the fans expressing who they'd like to see together. Some of us prefer bad boys with British accents who don't apologize for having flaws. I, personally, don't fall for the "who's more holy" spiel spread by the show. That's what people are always arguing about when it comes to Spike and Angel and Faith and Buffy. I relate to the more human and morally ambiguous of the pairs, I'm pretty sure we all do and just don't want to admit it.

Slighlty off topic but another thing. Why are most US shows always set around High School. Not even College it's always School. Why is that, what's with the school obsession ?

Shows set in college get cancelled after one season. There was The Best Years on the N (which technically was Canadian). Then Undecided (I think was the name)....which I think might've been Canadian too actually. So nevermind.

Shows set in college get cancelled after one season. There was The Best Years on the N (which technically was Canadian). Then Undecided (I think was the name)....which I think might've been Canadian too actually. So nevermind.

Probably because most people remember being in high school but not everyone went to college and teenagers watch more TV than college students. I'm in college though and watch alot of TV and so do a lot of students I know, but statistics would probably point to less college viewers of sitcoms and dramas. The UK has Fresh Meat though and that's one of my favorite shows.

 

[Bop]

You could at worst accuse Angel of being an ephebophile. Having sexual relations with 15 year olds (and even 17 year olds) is against the law many places, but Buffy is biologically a sexually mature woman. She is not a child with a child's body.

I find the pedophilia/ephebophile a very slippery slope by those terms. What does it mean to have a woman’s/sexually mature appearance? Because a girl of 12/13 could have breasts, hips and a period. She could appear to be sexually mature but she isn’t she’s a child. On the other scale not all women look that womanly. This is why we measure in age not what a woman appears to be.

 

[thetopher]

But it's pretty much in character for everyone, wouldn't you say?

No, I wouldn't say. Sometimes characters hit each other during emotionally fraught encounters. Such as Buffy hitting Faith at the docks in 'Consequences'. It's supposed to be something that's dramatic and 'not okay'. Spike just does it a lot when he's able to.

Buffy punched Giles in the face for going after Angel in season 2.

Again, emotionally fraught. Giles almost got himself killed and that would devastate Buffy. Then Buffy hugs him afterwards.
It's like a parent who yells at their kid for running off and worrying them but then hugging them. It's done out of love.
I would've thought that was obvious in context.

And Buffy would often greet Spike by hitting him.

Because he was annoying and evil?
She actually didn't hit him in S4 without provocation but after he betrayed them all to Adam she figured 'why waste time with pleasantries?' Can't say I blame her.

Buffy and Angel had that fistfight in Angel when she tried to intervene with Faith and that was all out of emotion.

Emotionally fraught scene where Buffy is mostly out of line when she hits Angel. In context it's actually more understandable, it shows how much Faith has hurt Buffy - but it's not depicted as 'okay' for Buffy to act this way.
Some say that's she's acting (sigh) 'out of character' but actually she isn't; she's jealous, vengeful and serf-righteous. Buffy can be all those things and that's okay. Y'know, one time or so, not 'all the time' like with Spike doing it.


When Spike hits somebody its because he can't express himself any other way it seems. He hits Anya instead of telling her to be quiet. He knocks out Xander rather than, I dunno, barge past him with his superstrength? Push him over and run away?
He hits Faith because he is 'white-knighting' for Buffy even if she isn't there to see it (but he makes sure to tell her what she did. She is pleased).
He hits Angel in 'Destiny' because he wants the Cup of torment or whatever and doesn't want to think things through. Plus he doesn't like Angel.
If you are a fan of Spike then you have to accept that he tends to think with his fists, but you can't say that it isn't part of the make-up of his character.

 

[thetopher]

And like he said he gave Wood a pass because of it. That was a warning to not try that again.

Really? Beating him to a pulp- with ease- wasn't enough? Taunting him about his Mother wasn't enough? He had to bite him to let him know? It's a completely out of line and s****y thing to do.
If we're gonna compare him to Angel, who doesn't do that kind of thing even when provoking in the extreme- think Holtz- then Spike comes off as truly awful.

Xander was not letting him out while he was desperate to prove he wasnt killing those girls.

Xander has no superpowers. There are other ways for Spike to get past him, he just didn't want to think about it. Unacceptable.

Anya was a vengeance demon who was turning people into worms and your using that !

That's not why Spike hit her and you know it. Spike hit her because she knew he had a soul now and wanted to know how. Spike didn't want to say and instead of walking away he punched her.

 

[SleepiSlayer317]

No, I wouldn't say. Sometimes characters hit each other during emotionally fraught encounters. Such as Buffy hitting Faith at the docks in 'Consequences'. It's supposed to be something that's dramatic and 'not okay'. Spike just does it a lot when he's able to.



Again, emotionally fraught. Giles almost got himself killed and that would devastate Buffy. Then Buffy hugs him afterwards.
It's like a parent who yells at their kid for running off and worrying them but then hugging them. It's done out of love.
I would've thought that was obvious in context.



Because he was annoying and evil?
She actually didn't hit him in S4 without provocation but after he betrayed them all to Adam she figured 'why waste time with pleasantries?' Can't say I blame her.



Emotionally fraught scene where Buffy is mostly out of line when she hits Angel. In context it's actually more understandable, it shows how much Faith has hurt Buffy - but it's not depicted as 'okay' for Buffy to act this way.
Some say that's she's acting (sigh) 'out of character' but actually she isn't; she's jealous, vengeful and serf-righteous. Buffy can be all those things and that's okay. Y'know, one time or so, not 'all the time' like with Spike doing it.


When Spike hits somebody its because he can't express himself any other way it seems. He hits Anya instead of telling her to be quiet. He knocks out Xander rather than, I dunno, barge past him with his superstrength? Push him over and run away?
He hits Faith because he is 'white-knighting' for Buffy even if she isn't there to see it (but he makes sure to tell her what she did. She is pleased).
He hits Angel in 'Destiny' because he wants the Cup of torment or whatever and doesn't want to think things through. Plus he doesn't like Angel.
If you are a fan of Spike then you have to accept that he tends to think with his fists, but you can't say that it isn't part of the make-up of his character.

I didn't say it wasn't part of his character. I see your proof, but I don't see how what I said was much different? Emotionally fraught or not, that's still in the realm of "because I can", it's just "because I'm mad". What's to tell us that Buffy hitting Giles in that scene isn't supposed to be depicted as okay. Nothing tells us otherwise? She hits him and they hug. That's it. Buffy hitting Spike "because he's annoying and evil" is in the realm of "because I can". If he was that evil the logical thing to do would be to kill him. There's always an excuse not to kill him so she beats on him instead. Isn't it all part of the language? Everybody hits. I know there's many other examples not coming to mind right now. But Spike's not the only person who hits when words don't suffice. He kind of shares that with Buffy.

 

[CHK DeWilSon]

I found it creepy and the difference being that when Spike and Buffy date, yes they are older.

She could never love him Souless, which I'm sure you know. So he fought for his soul back.

But did Spike think Buffy love him before the AR? Because why then didn't he fight for his soul then?

Why was the 'relationship' that he had with her enough until the AR? Because there was never any feeling from him from what I can remember watching that he believed she deserved him with soul until the episode of Seeing Red.

I do agree with you about Buffy not loving him then. Clearly there was some feelings for him but considering how she viewed herself then, I just don't believe she had the capacity to love him with all the negative feelings she had about herself and her life.

 

[Btvs fan]

Really? Beating him to a pulp- with ease- wasn't enough? Taunting him about his Mother wasn't enough? He had to bite him to let him know? It's a completely out of line and s****y thing to do.
If we're gonna compare him to Angel, who doesn't do that kind of thing even when provoking in the extreme- think Holtz- then Spike comes off as truly awful.



Xander has no superpowers. There are other ways for Spike to get past him, he just didn't want to think about it. Unacceptable.



That's not why Spike hit her and you know it. Spike hit her because she knew he had a soul now and wanted to know how. Spike didn't want to say and instead of walking away he punched her.

Angel went there to kill Holtz. All the Angel thought that was what he was going to do. He even grabbed Holtz ready to strangle him. Who knows if Angel had behaved that way to Holtz.

He's chipped, he can't just brush past Xander it takes effort.

Anya had grabbed hold of him despite him screaming at her to let him go. Remember he was insane at the point. It was all an act which got punctured the second he stabbed Ronny by mistake. No doubt your gonna say the horror on his face was for some other reason than stabbing a human

But did Spike think Buffy love him before the AR? Because why then didn't he fight for his soul then?

Why was the 'relationship' that he had with her enough until the AR? Because there was never any feeling from him from what I can remember watching that he believed she deserved him with soul until the episode of Seeing Red.

I do agree with you about Buffy not loving him then. Clearly there was some feelings for him but considering how she viewed herself then, I just don't believe she had the capacity to love him with all the negative feelings she had about herself and her life.

Because he was souless and he didnt know any better. He even admits that in Never Leave Me.

Buffy was always attracted to Spike but she could never love him until he got a soul because without the soul, he had no moral compass.

 

[DaniRose20]

While we're on the topic, let me clarify something. Angel fell in love with Buffy when he first saw her. He truly loved her. And she loved him.

Spike blew into town, saw Buffy in action, and immediately planned on killing her. Yet he never managed to. Then he gets a chip in his head and can't hurt anyone. Vampiric emasculation, in other words. Since he can't kill Buffy, he becomes obsessed with her, and convinces himself he loves her. Which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever witnessed, frankly. Eventually, he and Buffy start doing the horizontal bop...but even she knows that she's just using him like a convenient sex toy. And oh yeah! Spike tries to rape her. Yeah, there's a real love story. (NOT!)

Buffy never loved Spike. And Spike was merely obsessed with her, not "in love." There WAS no "Spike and Buffy relationship." He was never her boyfriend, never her true love, just a convenient scratch when she got an itch.

Angel is, and always will be, the love of Buffy's life.

Plus she even told Angel that in her heart Spikes her boyfriend. In the last comic she didn't end up with either so yeah.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I find the pedophilia/ephebophile a very slippery slope by those terms. What does it mean to have a woman’s/sexually mature appearance? Because a girl of 12/13 could have breasts, hips and a period. She could appear to be sexually mature but she isn’t she’s a child. On the other scale not all women look that womanly. This is why we measure in age not what a woman appears to be.

I think the distinction is important. Ephebophile is quite common. PornHub releases search statistics that give an indication of people's sexual preferences. Searches such as 'teen' and 'barely legal' are fairly common, though not as common as some pessimists might assume. This is quite troubling, especially since you can find a barely legal porn actor that looks illegal, though I am sure you would agree that it would be much more troubling if there were just as many searches for paedophile content.

As the cliche goes, age is just a number. The law needs clear boundaries, so it goes by age. However, people mature—biologically and psychologically—at very different speeds. A girl who undergoes puberty early may find herself exposed to the attention of predatory men, or she may find herself invited to car rides or parties with older boys.

Were I live, the age of consent is 16. It would be perfectly legal for someone my age to have sex with a 16 year old. That does not mean that it is right. If I discovered such a relationship, I could not go the police, but I could notify the 16 year olds parents and the employer of the older party ... or something similar.

I chose to give BtVS some slack, because it is a fantasy and because the story is told from Buffy's perspective. If it was real life, I would be firmly on Joyce's side. However, even if I could not support Bangel in real life, despite how emotionally mature Buffy appears to be, I still maintain that paedophilia is in a whole different ball park.

Ephebophilia is not a good thing, but it is much more ambiguous, and you have to consider things such as the ages of the people involved, the legality, the exact nature of the relationship, etc. Paedophilia is much less complex. When I was in high school, I had many friends who dated girls who were (in my opinion) too young. This December, I learned that one of my past co-worker lost his job, because the police found child pornography on his computer. The former is a bit of a grey area, the latter is one of the very worst thing a person can be involved in.

 

[TriBel]

"I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper," Whedon admitted to Complex's Frazier Tharpe. "I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me." Joss Whedon Weighs In On The 'Buffy' Ship Debate

For my own reasons, which are not necessarily the reasons given on the thread, I'm with Joss on this one.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Love at first sight isnt a real thing. Even in tv. Loves gotta be a process. Your argument is rediculous. Spike did love Buffy and she loved him back. If you read the comics you'd know they get together.

I'm not arguing. 😛 Spike was obsessed, not in love. And no, Buffy didn't love him. That's just fact. I don't read comics. Not into them.

Love is a process? Are you an expert on that? 😅

 

[GraceK]

Bottom line, here’s what makes me mad. I honestly don’t understand why people just can’t love Spuffy without dragging Bangel down. One doesn’t have anything to do with the other. I genuinely love both ships. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I absolutely adore Spike and I love Angel. And Buffy is my girl. She clearly loves them both. Why is it necessary to degrade and accuse one of pedophelia and the other of being irredeemable? Both accusations are untrue. The utter bias and hypocrisy of some Spuffy fans, and yes, I’m calling out fellow Spuffy fans is unreal. It’s like your so insecure about the fact that Bangel exists you have to find reasons to denigrate and abuse that ship to the point that’s it ridiculous. And you elevate Spike to this level that honestly does him no favors. And some Bangel shippers are just as bad. Seriously. Spike is not this one dimensional creep that you make him out to be. He clearly is an anomaly in the Buffyverse. He allowed himself to be tortured by Glory rather than give up Dawn. He took care of Dawn when Buffy was dead. He fought side by side with the scoobies. He genuinely loved Joyce and mourned her death. He was willing to team up with the slayer to save his girlfriend and the WORLD. He has genuine humanity in him. To reduce him to nothing more than a soulless vampire is ridiculous and unfair. The fact he fought for his soul and feels remorse for attempting to rape Buffy actually does mean something and shouldn’t be discarded.

Both Angel and Spike are exceptional and that’s why our amazing girl Buffy loves them. Tearing them down and trying to make them worse and not worthy of her, just makes HER look bad and does nothing to further your ship.

 

[Bop]

Ephebophilia is not a good thing, but it is much more ambiguous, and you have to consider things such as the ages of the people involved, the legality, the exact nature of the relationship, etc. Paedophilia is much less complex. When I was in high school, I had many friends who dated girls who were (in my opinion) too young. This December, I learned that one of my past co-worker lost his job, because the police found child pornography on his computer. The former is a bit of a grey area, the latter is one of the very worst thing a person can be involved in.

I see how there’s a big difference between being attracted to a developed and a non-developed child but the thing is, either way that’s still a child. We don’t define children as undeveloped people, we define them as being under a certain age. I don’t see why the definition of a child changes to accommodate another term for being attracted to someone underage. At the end of the day, if someone fancies a developed 12 year old, they fancy a child which equals pedophilia. I wouldn’t call that Ephebophilia, I find that whole term an insult to children who just happen to be developed early. I just want to call a spade a spade.

I’m honestly not really talking about Buffy/Angel, just in general I find fault with the distinction.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Bottom line, here’s what makes me mad. I honestly don’t understand why people just can’t love Spuffy without dragging Bangel down. One doesn’t have anything to do with the other. I genuinely love both ships. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I absolutely adore Spike and I love Angel. And Buffy is my girl. She clearly loves them both. Why is it necessary to degrade and accuse one of pedophelia and the other of being irredeemable? Both accusations are untrue. The utter bias and hypocrisy of some Spuffy fans, and yes, I’m calling out fellow Spuffy fans is unreal. It’s like your so insecure about the fact that Bangel exists you have to find reasons to denigrate and abuse that ship to the point that’s it ridiculous. And you elevate Spike to this level that honestly does him no favors. And some Bangel shippers are just as bad. Seriously. Spike is not this one dimensional creep that you make him out to be. He clearly is an anomaly in the Buffyverse. He allowed himself to be tortured by Glory rather than give up Dawn. He took care of Dawn when Buffy was dead. He fought side by side with the scoobies. He genuinely loved Joyce and mourned her death. He was willing to team up with the slayer to save his girlfriend and the WORLD. He has genuine humanity in him. To reduce him to nothing more than a soulless vampire is ridiculous and unfair. The fact he fought for his soul and feels remorse for attempting to rape Buffy actually does mean something and shouldn’t be discarded.

Both Angel and Spike are exceptional and that’s why our amazing girl Buffy loves them. Tearing them down and trying to make them worse and not worthy of her, just makes HER look bad and does nothing to further your ship.

Dude, I love Angel and Buffy together. But the whole Bangel vs. Spuffy thing is not even an issue for me. People are going to disagree because that's human nature.

Occasionally I'll jump in when I'm amused or something. But it's just not that dire to me. 🐶