Question I really like who Buffy became in season 7. IMO She's a warrior general! Am I alone?

[RomanticSoul]

I'm really surprised there's not more uproar or controversy in the fandom over the Buffy/Robin/Spike thing, it was honestly shocking and it was so risky and sensitive for Buffy and Spike to say what they did to Robin. Many people have lost their mothers *shrug* it's a bad move.

That incident falls under several of the categories that @thetopher mentioned in the previous post. For me, LMPTM is the worst episode of the entire show. It's basically Buffy (the character) 'the end result'. The person Buffy was turned into for the sake of Spike and Spuffy and this episode makes that more than clear. She has become a version of Spike. Reckless, impatient, lack of empathy, superiority complex, bully, no morals, short sighted-ness and entirely too full of herself.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

General Buffy of season three got more people killed.

Because she didn't have a shiny necklace. If she didn't have a shiny necklace she would've gotten all of the people killed in s7. There were literally THOUSANDS of Turok Khans. To what 15 slayers and a vampire?

 

[Antho]

General Buffy of season three got more people killed.

Maybe, we actually don't know. The situation were also different because in the first one the city was full of people who lived in Sunnydale and Buffy made sure no one was still inside the high school when there was the explosion. And for the second one, the city of Sunnydale literrally disapeared and Buffy was just lucky that people decided to leave the city, but are we sure there wasn't still people in Sunnydale ?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Reckless, impatient, lack of empathy, superiority complex, bully, no morals, short sighted-ness and entirely too full of herself.

Exactly. She wasn't a general; wasn't much of a leader. She was a maverick.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Who actually died during the Graduation Day war? Larry, Snyder and Harmony was bitten. That's all the info we have as far as I remember. Pretty sure that at least twice if not more Potentials died than people that we of during GD.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I will continue to say this until I am blue in the face. General Buffy's plan did not win the war. Wolfram and Hart won the war. Connor going nuts won the war. Angel coming to bring the necklace won the war. Spike wearing it won the war. Activating the 15? Slayers or so was not going to win the war. She saw the numbers of TKs she was up against in her vision. I don't know what she was thinking. She could've gone for bombs, artillery, etc. Buffy was courageous to be sure, but her plan alone was ridiculous. She had no clue what the necklace would do she just threw it on Spike and ushered him in and hoped for the best. General Buffy did not win that war.

And - please believe me when I say - I really really wanted it to be Buffy that won the day. I really did. Nothing would have meant more to me. It just wasn't so.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Wolfram and Hart won the war.

I disagree with that. The war wasn't won. The battle was won and people treated it like it was the won. The First was still out there, all of the Turok-han were still out there. They just momentarily slowed their entrance into our world down. The only thing they- beit Buffy, Spike or W&H- won was a reprieve.

 

[Bite-me]

@thetopher , All great point , I happen to think those points and unattractive traits were on purpose , the thing about her succumbing to utilitarianism by the end something she always fought the Watchers Council against is particularly damaging , and that is the full cycle purpose of S7 , until there is a finale course correction when Buffy pulls through with ingenuity, unorthodoxy and feminist humanitarianism. This wasn't supernatural slayer power to echo Buffy's last line of the series "It was Buffy."

@DeepBlueJoy , "Buffy Rocked! Great generals care, but send people out to die anyway. It's necessary." This a male dominated maschoism glamorizing of war and violence, you can not have effective war campaign without propaganda , about the greater meaning, the successful outcome, and personal heroic glory. In truth this is another damaging rationale Buffy succumb to , the potentials were no better then her as a sixteen year old , except worse without slayer powers, remember "I'm sixteen year old, I don't want to die" now Buffy is willing to send innocent girls out to die just like she was , she's always known it was not right, until challenged by the prospect of there being no other way to save the world and the billions of people in it without taking the position of the Watchers Council that the greater good is what matters. She realizes there is another way, another form of sacrificing that doesn't involve "sacrificing" a innocent like the realization on the night of The Gift and she rallies the troops similarly to the night of Graduation, where they all get to make a choice to be in this fight.

And It is brilliant, to put it like this, Revolution, the forcible overthrow of one social order in favor of a new system or government will never work because human nature remains the same, its meet the new boss, same as the old boss, sort of like what happened with Buffy but Rebellion, is a personal act of insubordination, subversion and open resistance to an established government or ruler. That is a revolt that will last.

 

[RomanticSoul]

She saw the numbers of TKs she was up against in her vision. I don't know what she was thinking. She could've gone for bombs, artillery, etc. Buffy was courageous to be sure, but her plan alone was ridiculous.

Riley was only a freaking phone call away. We saw earlier in the Season that Riley can come to her aid in a short time. And he would have been able to bring military equipment with him. Grenades, flame throwers, bombs...you name it. Anything that goes boom and causes fire. That Buffy didn't even think about bringing something flammable with her shows how stupid she was by S7. Or I don't know, you went there during the day...rip the damn roof off the school and let the sunlight in.

And you seem to be missing the point @DeepBlueJoy. War always has casualties. It's not about how many people died. That's not an argument. We are talking about how the General prepares for that war and acts during it.

The Buffy of GD knew how to play to her strengths and weaknesses. What she lacked she delegated to others. She knew she couldn't rally the High School children so she left it to her other Generals to approach them. She left the research to Giles and Wesley. She relied on Xander's military memories and let him lead the charge of the big battle. Angel lead the sneak attack. She was the most physically capable so she lead the snake around the school which was only possible because Angel reminded her to use human weakness against the Mayor. That's what a good General does. She managed to get 100 people or so on her side by being smart. She lost everyone in S7 by being a shitty person and General (for the reasons @thetopher stated). The only reason they all come together in the end was because the writers completely ignored what happened in the episodes prior.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

rip the damn roof off .

Made me think of this

So A+ for that....

 

[Bite-me]

@RomanticSoul , you make good point regarding Spike and his centrality, in my opinion Buffy was turned into this person/General for the sake of the seasons theme and revelation.

@dcai0830 , @Spanky , good point , we see it as happy, the battle is won and it works with this shows and Angel's mythology message , the battles won , the war never is and at the same time season finale serves as the shows universe send off of them to metaphorically live full normal lifes in the sunshine, which does not negate the message , that one never gives up the war of good and darkness cause one will always fight their personal battles. (and coincidentally its appropriate the vampire was not in the sun with them, so its fitting he had his heroes swan song)

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Riley was only a freaking phone call away. We saw earlier in the Season that Riley can come to her aid in a short time. And he would have been able to bring military equipment with him. Grenades, flame throwers, bombs...you name it. Anything that goes boom and causes fire.

Yeah I often think of all of the ways that Buffy's plan could've been improved upon and still you could have had your sappy Spuffy ending if you still wanted Spike to save the day. You could have dropped bombs, thrown grenades, as you said she could've called Riley's team for back up, she could've had Willow create artificial sunlight balls, she could've activated all of the slayers and they could've shown us a montage of them over the course of weeks/months recruiting Slayers for a TRUE army in the hundreds - making it more believable that they would've stood a chance if not for for the Deux Ex Necklace. And even with having all of those resources they could've been cornered and in need of a hail mary and that is when your boy (not yours... obviously but the fan favorite boy...) Spike comes in and saves the day. You still get your hero moment for Spike, Buffy looks like a competent war hero, her decision to activate the slayers has real life implications in the battle that is won etc etc.

 

[EarthLogic]

Activating the 15?

30-ish (32?) Slayers actually. The 15 was in response to DeepBlueJoy saying that Spike could have killed half the potentials.
 

@thetopher , All great point , I happen to think those points and unattractive traits were on purpose , the thing about her succumbing to utilitarianism by the end something she always fought the Watchers Council against is particularly damaging , and that is the full cycle purpose of S7 , until there is a finale course correction when Buffy pulls through with ingenuity, unorthodoxy and feminist humanitarianism.

So I guess the real issue is ... how is this portrayed? Is the show supporting her behaviour and actions up until the decision to activate? Or critiquing it? Or is it objectively trying to give us a balanced picture of both the good and bad?

 

[Antho]

30-ish (32?) Slayers actually. The 15 was in response to DeepBlueJoy saying that Spike could have killed half the potentials.

I still bet on the TK

 

[EarthLogic]

I still bet on the TK

Oh yeah, I'm not saying that the numbers would have made a difference - I was just correcting the figure.

 

[RomanticSoul]

@RomanticSoul , you make good point regarding Spike and his centrality, in my opinion Buffy was turned into this person/General for the sake of the seasons theme and revelation.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the story. Whedon was taking out his SMG issues on the character. It had nothing to do with Buffy, hence she isn't like the Buffy we know. Buffy was supposed to reflect SMG's relationship with the rest of the cast (bull on that one btw), or so Whedon said. It's a typical Whedon thing. Where as SMG rightly thinks 'what would be in character for Buffy', Whedon just moves the characters for whatever plot he wants. And that includes working out his issues with the actors via their characters. That's why I don't even take S7 Buffy (character and show) seriously in any way. Because it's not about Buffy, it's about Whedon's douchbaggery.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I wish Spike would have been dusted in S2 if that had made people less dismissive of the final two seasons. To me, S7 greatest flaw is the boring parts, though it really shines in places.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I wish Spike would have been dusted in S2 if that had made people less dismissive of the final two seasons. To me, S7 greatest flaw is the boring parts, though it really shines in places.

Truthfully, even if you don't believe me on this - I will tell you this: If Spike was a non-issue in s7, if Angel had stepped in and wore the necklace, I would still have the same criticism of the final episodes. Angel should not be the hero because this is Buffy's story and Buffy's show. Angel can go and be a hero on his show. This isn't only about Spike for me (and how much Spike there is). This is about Buffy. It should've been her glorious exit. Buffy and the gang should have come together and been the reason the battle was won.

 

[Antho]

The end of the story the series told us since seven years should have ended about Buffy and the scoobies. If this was the case, I would have no criticism to do.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Truthfully, even if you don't believe me on this - I will tell you this: If Spike was a non-issue in s7, if Angel had stepped in and wore the necklace, I would still have the same criticism of the final episodes. Angel should not be the hero because this is Buffy's story and Buffy's show. Angel can go and be a hero on his show. This isn't only about Spike for me (and how much Spike there is). This is about Buffy. It should've been her glorious exit. Buffy and the gang should have come together and been the reason the battle was won.

Truthfully, even if you don't believe me on this, Chosen isn't really a favourite of mine. I love the final exchange between Buffy and Spike, but the necklace as a second deus ex machina really stole the thunder from the activation of the potentials. I really like the idea of Spike giving his life to prove his love, only to be resurrected again 😛 I just wish they had made his "sacrifice" less central to the victory.

Remember that Spike's sacrifice was kinda unearned. He had no idea what the necklace would do until just before the end. It was Buffy who did most of the heavy lifting throughout the season.

I think there are some great Buffy-moments in S7. There are certainly many more great Buffy moments in S7 than there are great Spike moments. Spike was a lot more central to S6 than he was to S7. The trigger plot is a bit of a nuisance, but most of the time, Spike is just sorta there. I don't really feel he steals the show.

Btw, I've not forgotten you wrote that Angel could take Buffy in a fight 😛