Anyanka Bunny Slayer
✨ Hail Hydra ✨
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When you become a staff member, you can tell me how to post. Until that time, tend to thine own garden. 😉
Question I really like who Buffy became in season 7. IMO She's a warrior general! Am I alone?
- Thread starter DeepBlueJoy
- Start date
When you become a staff member, you can tell me how to post. Until that time, tend to thine own garden. 😉
I would say that post wasn't necessarily impolite, it is passionately disagreeing with you and maybe a bit harsh toward Buffy, If something bothers you though, please report it to the staff so we can look at it more closely.
That said, is it really about hating Buffy? I hate what Buffy becomes in season 7, because I don't feel it's even Buffy anymore and the overall message is dreadful to me, but I don't think that compromises that fact that I've ardently loved the character for six seasons before that, or does it?
This is kind of what I hate about what Buffy becomes in season 7. She's like *shrug* 30 girls just like me could've died, who cares, I've got my boo. I.e. she showed a complete and utter disregard for human life. Why was she even saving the world at this point? Just because? Clearly, she didn't care about individuals. These weren't soldiers who had signed up. These were innocent girls who were in an identical position to her a couple of years earlier. That's not a general. That's someone blinded by bad judgement. A general looks after their troups. Not one person in the troup. Buffy didn't know about the amulet. Buffy didn't know Spike would get a trinket that would help them. Her treatment of the Potentials/Spike in the light of not having a magical do-hickey at the end means that she was reckless about the Mission. The mission was not to keep Spike around in the hopes of him ending the First after all. She wasn't about the mission, she was about her self-interest in the mission. There's a huge difference there to me.
Actually a really good point. Even though Anya comes across as kind of mean when she harps on Buffy's leadership in season 7 she also has a point. Buffy just got these special powers, but does that really make her more qualified than the rest of them? She's fought battles, yes. But is she a general? Capable of being leading a reluctant group of trainees? What exactly has prepared her for this? She's used to lead because she's the strongest one, but when it comes to strategy she's always had help... nothing wrong with that. But when your help is saying, please let's think about this, maybe listen to them? That's what'd make her a good general. For me, in season 7, though Buffy's just "my way or the high way", and it really only works out because the writers throw a scythe and amulet her way. Not because of her leadership skills (or "stirring" speeches).
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Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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Yes but it was her story MN was the show runner Whedon had all but disappeared to play with fireflop.JW rallied to her side after fan criticism saying they did nothing without his say so , but this falls down by what MN said at parley fast CC ....on the same day Sarah came to me and said she had completely lost the character Joss also came to me and said Buffy been gone to long ,
Firstly on this statement the Star of the show show's she had no idea what was going on with her Character ? really ! , a Character she had made world famous over 5 years a Character JW had described as ..... Buffy is Sarah and Sarah is Buffy ,
Secondly Whedon came to Noxon!! and said Buffy been gone to long it shows to me that JW had little in put, or else there was little forward planning.... Sarah did say Joss was never in his office
As far as I am concerned it was down to her...... the show runner ....... she is the reason for the character assassination of the core four and to a certain amount Spikes
My favorite Tv series I feel, did not die a natural death ( unless you count the end of real Buffy at the gift ), it was murdered in S6 by MN to feed her EGO
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I agree Buffy was no longer Buffy in S7
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Steven123
Angel's Buddy
Looking at what people have said about S7 I have to agree...
There was a question a few years ago on here that was basically how did Buffy go from S1-6, and then have S7 being what it was in general and a lot of that conversation at the time was very much about the character changes. If you were to look at in terms of progression then you would be looking from the first episode until the last, from everything that happened from day one to the end deeply changed all of them, and by the time S7 comes around I think it was becoming evident that the season in general was just a sort of mashed up things, as in it was more like the characters were told "This is what you are like now" rather than it be another season of "development".
I think the whole essence though was to try and show a "tough love" stance to what was essentially labelled a "war" for the best part of the season, but it just ended up being an "Meh, war, don't really care" sort of situation.
It was more as though a personality was forced onto Buffy rather than it be who she was in that season, if you look at previous seasons, it's two different people.
There was a question a few years ago on here that was basically how did Buffy go from S1-6, and then have S7 being what it was in general and a lot of that conversation at the time was very much about the character changes. If you were to look at in terms of progression then you would be looking from the first episode until the last, from everything that happened from day one to the end deeply changed all of them, and by the time S7 comes around I think it was becoming evident that the season in general was just a sort of mashed up things, as in it was more like the characters were told "This is what you are like now" rather than it be another season of "development".
I think the whole essence though was to try and show a "tough love" stance to what was essentially labelled a "war" for the best part of the season, but it just ended up being an "Meh, war, don't really care" sort of situation.
It was more as though a personality was forced onto Buffy rather than it be who she was in that season, if you look at previous seasons, it's two different people.
telperion66
Potential
Agreed.
I like the vibrant Buffy of earlier seasons. But just like if they rebooted with the same actors now, my interest level in the core characters is such that I made it through watching season 7, despite the "Buffy is a war general" thing, waiting for the good parts, for my guys to shine, at least a little.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
While I agree that S6 and Spuffy caused the death of the show- because SMG no longer felt in touch with her character and so she chose not to renew her contract- I don't think you can put ALL that on Marti. The AR? Sure that was on her but the rest was signed off on by Joss.
Joss signed off on the plot and has commented that the tone/plot points were all approved by him going forward, he didn't exactly regret the events in S6, apart from the death of Tara..
And the fact is I can still sympathize and root for Buffy the character in S6 but I can't in S7, and S7 had much more Joss involvement than S6.
Steven123
Angel's Buddy
I think one thing to consider is when we look at character development from the beginning of where they were to S6 & 7 , I think not only with Buffy/Sarah, I think even with a few of the others, when you have been playing someone for so long, from how young most of them were when they started and not to mention this was more or less all of their first real big hits in terms of ongoing television series, I think when you have been portraying the character for so long, it becomes natural that you can outgrow the character but also want to take it in other directions. I think we could probably all agree that the writing for S6 and certainly S7 seemed a much more hurried up approach and the first ideas that came to mind were the ones that went down.
As people have said Sarah wanted to take Buffy in a different direction to what was being written, and you have both sides of the coin in terms of Sarah would blame the writing and Joss etc would blame something else, at the end of the day you have to pretty much go with the script you are handed, if we look back at "that" moment with Spike & Buffy in S6..., this is from James Marsters talking about that moment with Spike & Buffy, when it started to turn dark..
Marsters -
That scene, in which Spike tries to get Buffy to say she loves him, and ends up nearly raping her, is devastating to watch. And as Marsters describes it, the process by which they came up with the idea for the scene was pretty devastating as well.
Apparently, a lot of not just season six’s darkness, but the entire show’s, came from the writers’ own experiences. Marsters says Whedon would ask the team for “their worst day.” The worst thing they’ve done, the thing they’ve buried and don’t talk about. The fact that he cultivated enough trust with his writers for them to share those stories is remarkable in itself. Marsters calls this “an act of bravery and vulnerability every single episode.”
Marsters calls the day they shot the scene the hardest day of his professional life. He says he was “curled up in a fetal position in between takes.” It was “unbelievably hard,” but he makes it clear he’s still glad they did the scene.
Now when you read that, there is the good and bad. Joss had a good relationship with fellow writers and in the rest of the article it just basically says that he wanted to go off others experiences, but, was that suitable for what Buffy was? Now, again this is not to reflect that this had any major bearing on how S7 turned out, but I think even from this point, the plot and writing of the shows was going down a different path that not everyone was happy with.
As people have said Sarah wanted to take Buffy in a different direction to what was being written, and you have both sides of the coin in terms of Sarah would blame the writing and Joss etc would blame something else, at the end of the day you have to pretty much go with the script you are handed, if we look back at "that" moment with Spike & Buffy in S6..., this is from James Marsters talking about that moment with Spike & Buffy, when it started to turn dark..
Marsters -
That scene, in which Spike tries to get Buffy to say she loves him, and ends up nearly raping her, is devastating to watch. And as Marsters describes it, the process by which they came up with the idea for the scene was pretty devastating as well.
Apparently, a lot of not just season six’s darkness, but the entire show’s, came from the writers’ own experiences. Marsters says Whedon would ask the team for “their worst day.” The worst thing they’ve done, the thing they’ve buried and don’t talk about. The fact that he cultivated enough trust with his writers for them to share those stories is remarkable in itself. Marsters calls this “an act of bravery and vulnerability every single episode.”
Marsters calls the day they shot the scene the hardest day of his professional life. He says he was “curled up in a fetal position in between takes.” It was “unbelievably hard,” but he makes it clear he’s still glad they did the scene.
Now when you read that, there is the good and bad. Joss had a good relationship with fellow writers and in the rest of the article it just basically says that he wanted to go off others experiences, but, was that suitable for what Buffy was? Now, again this is not to reflect that this had any major bearing on how S7 turned out, but I think even from this point, the plot and writing of the shows was going down a different path that not everyone was happy with.
RomanticSoul
Frell Me
It can be good and there is nothing wrong IMO with writers incorporating their own experiences into a show. That's kind of what pretty much all of them do (not just on BtVS). What it comes down to for me is execution in terms of storytelling and character development.
That's why I usually side with people like SMG rather than someone like Whedon. The fundamental difference between their philosophies is such that SMG's is the only one that makes sense to me and that I support. SMG rightly IMO thinks 'what would Buffy do' whereas Whedon thinks 'what plot do I want to do'. As far back as S4 this has been a problem when SMG said the Parker thing wouldn't be in character for Buffy. Whedon however was all like 'this is what people do in college'. I personally don't care what people do Joss, I care what BUFFY does. The characters have the drive the plot, not the other way around.
It's also why I don't see how anyone even tries to argue/make sense/defend S7 Buffy (the character). There were things going on BTS between Whedon and SMG and as Whedon is prone to do, he likes to take his issues with an actor out on their character. It's again not about Buffy at all, it's about as Whedon said, a reflection of SMG's relationship with the cast/crew.
Steven123
Angel's Buddy
I think when it gets to the point that it did and they had been together for as long as they had (cast/writers etc) I think any long arguments or grudges dating back are obviously going to be carried over and further on, it will cast a shadow over a lot of them. I think all of them were probably unhappy with the way S7 was going from early on, but with them knowing it was going to be the last (probably) and knowing that it was really being hurried in general, I suppose it just took away what they had to try and make it better, and as I said, you have to go with the script that you are giving, and you can only work with that, sadly.
DeepBlueJoy
Lion Faced Kitteh
I think the last two seasons of Buffy are a cautionary tale to writers.
ONE: It really is best to work through your trauma before you vomit it onto the page. It can be powerful and cathartic, but not all catharsis belongs shared with the public.
TWO: The other caution is what happens when an idea person has too many pies in the oven... Joss had so many different visions, I think he didn't give any one of them the focus that made so much of his earlier work so much tighter and better thought out... and I think he got more and more arrogant, and 'i wanna kill someone in the credits' as a justification for killing off Tara is a juvenile power trip kind of decision. One, I am glad to hear that he has come to regret.
ONE: It really is best to work through your trauma before you vomit it onto the page. It can be powerful and cathartic, but not all catharsis belongs shared with the public.
TWO: The other caution is what happens when an idea person has too many pies in the oven... Joss had so many different visions, I think he didn't give any one of them the focus that made so much of his earlier work so much tighter and better thought out... and I think he got more and more arrogant, and 'i wanna kill someone in the credits' as a justification for killing off Tara is a juvenile power trip kind of decision. One, I am glad to hear that he has come to regret.
Yes there was a plot run from Whedon to take his issues out with SMG ( both 6 and 7 ) the whole scene in the Bronze was something Whedon had in his head for about a year , and they made it fit into the plot, we saw whedon's sick degrading fantasy played out on our Tv screens .,the whole over the top sex thing was to degrade Sarah and to destroy Buffy's image , probably jealousy how successful Sarah had become , Fury said Whedon was upset with Sarah as she did not give him credit for making her famous , really so a employee has to tell the boss how wonderful he is ? ....Childish nonsense
From season 3 onward it appears Sarah got no breaks her views were ignored While Alyson's had a completely different relation ship with Whedon ( she did not want to sing in OMWF and didn't )
Whedon talked of Sarah having a aloof attitude to the rest of the cast/ crew , we see this not to be true , Perhaps she wanted to be with Freddie etc not spending any free time she had creeping around the Boss......
From season 3 onward it appears Sarah got no breaks her views were ignored While Alyson's had a completely different relation ship with Whedon ( she did not want to sing in OMWF and didn't )
Whedon talked of Sarah having a aloof attitude to the rest of the cast/ crew , we see this not to be true , Perhaps she wanted to be with Freddie etc not spending any free time she had creeping around the Boss......
Steven123
Angel's Buddy
I'd go a long with that. I may be very wrong but I've never seen any of the cast at least openly admit they or anyone else cast wise had a problem with Sarah, I think for the most part they were a tight knit group especially through the earlier seasons, Sarah and David always had a good on screen chemistry and always looked just as happy off screen, like wise with most of the rest , obviously you can only judge it from what you see and what others say, but I think Whedon obviously will have his own views, I think if you were to ask him now he would probably regret a lot of things that he did in the latter stages of Buffy, and would probably do them differently now, I think if you are to look at it from a writers side, maybe what Buffy had started as and was viewed as was not what he wanted and wanted to give it a darker image, but that just wasn't Buffy , the show had an image that everyone for the most part enjoyed , that's why the spike/Buffy rape moment etc and a few other little scenes shook everyone, because it wasn't what the show was and nobody envisioned it to be what maybe he wanted it to become
Certainly after S3 I think there was a downturn in JW and SMG relation ship certainly how Whedon treated SMG a good instants is in S2 her got a member of the crew to make the bedroom sounds not wanting to ask Sarah to do them S6 he had no qualms in showing Buffy being sodomized despite Sarah disliking it so much
After S5 certainly S7 whedon had a weird Spike fixation after the horrible AR in S6 he rewrite the church scene to make it all Buffy fault in S7 not sure when Fireflop finished but JW only wrote the Church scene , Buffy talking to Holden in CWDP ( Brilliant ) and Chosen, in which Buffy leads 30 potentials, Faith, Spike, her friends and family on a suicide mission against thousands of uber vamps .... of coures Spike saves the day albeit unknowingly at first and even Buffy's last word is Spike
The last point agree with totally, suddenly a program that was family viewing turns into soft porn , post out on here you will be told things like, this was when the shit got real , this is Buffy growing up ......total rubbish.....when the program changed stations they found they had no sensor board I think whedon used that against SMG with the over the top sex , a lady that has always taken her responsibility of being a celebrity very seriously, won many awards for being a role model, what better way to use your influence over her to take out your issues with her than to show her being humped by a rubbish skip against a wall by a demon.
Whedon said..... Buffy is Sarah and Sarah is Buffy
Funny though on Whedons Twitter page the other day he wrote he had been watching old episodes of Buffy and said how ridiculous good Sarah Michelle Gellar is.......its a pity he did not remember that in S6 and S7
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
She wasn't being sodomized.
Steven123
Angel's Buddy
I think if anything Whedon has probably grown up as well and more than likely regrets a lot of things about Buffy/Angel etc that he would do differently now. I'd probably think he would want to re-write or at least want a lot of scenes to go differently than they did, again I think you could probably touch on that some of the scenes came across the way they did because the feeling you got at the time from SMG etc was that she just didn't want to be doing it, it looked a lot more forced which on the flip side probably brought about the emotions that it did from those scenes, BUT again that is where Whedon probably should have drawn the line.
As we both agree, there are so many arguments, points and conversations you could have about it, but Buffy to me was about the message "don't give up" be independent, be strong etc, and then to see her/buffy end up where it did at points, you were questioning where the show was going. Now don't get me wrong, as you said it was very much a growing up process for all of them from when Buffy started, and as I have said it was a process of growing up not only for the characters, but also the cast, but there are so many things that could have been done differently and better.
Amber Bunny Slippers...... not sure why you think Buffy and Spike was not having anal sex .... Spike lifts her skirt up at the back ? and if you watch the Dalies on you tube you will see Sarah pushing JM away with her back side when they say cut and tell him in another shot you were ****ing my back that time, at the very end I think its number two balcony scene but maybe one they filmed JM with both his hands on Sarahs hips and trusting, when you watch the shot you know they filmed it knowing there was no chance it would be shown on prime time TV
crazysoulless
I think its that some only use the word sodomize when talking about rape, although the balcony scene has been seen as that too
Anyanka Bunny Slayer
✨ Hail Hydra ✨
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Without being too graphic, it was obvious they were doing it doggy style. He took her from behind, yet there was no butt sex involved. None. It just didn't happen. That scene was strictly boner vs lady parts. And to be perfectly honest, I cannot understand why certain fans of the show insist that Spike was riding the Hershey highway in that scene.
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During the s7 rewatch that we just finished a few of us have been discussing the season 7 themes and metaphors. I don't want to take credit for this idea because I have come to this realization through posts and conversations with @Grace and @EarthLogic but based on these conversations I have found that season 7 so heavily concentrated on the meta story it wanted to tell that the metaphors became more important than the character development/character consistency. Giles needed to serve role of the patriarchy and so he did regardless of whether his behavior was consistent with his character in s1-6. Buffy needed to be the ONE girl in all the world, to demonstrate her separation her slayer singularity and so Buffy and her supporting cast made it happen. Dawn had to be be Buffy's humanity and so she was marvelous in s7 (that I'm ok with!). Basically, the characters were pawns in the larger allegory that Joss wanted to tell with little to no regard for whether it was true to character or not.
And I think you feel this disconnect in Buffy in s7. Where as Buffy is usually our avatar, our lens through which we see the story, in s7, she is not. She is merely a player in the game. The lens of s7 is objective, its not Buffy's experiences anymore. This isn't about Buffy growing up or learning lessons - this is about us learning some lesson the writers want us to learn. I've said this before but s7 btvs feels like the Walking Dead. I don't see that show from the lens of any particular character. The show is about the situation as a whole and all of the characters reacting to that situation. I find the shift in s7 BtVS odd and jarring and I also think it's unfortunate that this was the send off for the show. But I also think that maybe Joss thought he had told all of Buffy's stories by the time they reached s7 and now he needed to tell the story of the show and not the girl. Bold idea but it didn't work for me. I came for the girl.
Really? Outside of EoD/Chosen wasn't he busy with Firefly? Aren't the rumors that this is why AtS sucked too because Greenwalt had left and no one was manning the ship?
EarthLogic
Scooby
I don't understand that insistence either - maybe people want to make it out to be even more 'scandalous', especially if they want to argue that it was non-consensual (which it was not). Even if it was anal there's nothing wrong or taboo about that unless one personally considers it to be so. Tbh I'm not even sure they were actually doing it. The way they're standing doesn't seem conducive to it - Spike is taller than her, so without bending he'd have been thrusting into her lower back. Seems more likely it was, erm, manual stimulation with perhaps some grinding for himself.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I think in terms of 'message' he had much more direct say in how BtVS S7 turned out; there were definite things he wanted to say about SMG's relationship with the rest of the cast, about Spike's attempted rape (about how rapists aren't irreedable monsters) and about the series as a whole as it was wrapping up.
It's more evident in the episode commentaries I think.
I do think that in general he had less input over on Angel at the same time, but then again i really like AtS S4 so i don't really care.
Mrs Gordo
I like AtS s4 too. Glad he stayed away. :)