The thing is all the characters apart from Spike are in control of their actions by S7; Spike is- as of 'LMPTM'- still in the thrall of the First Evil. Buffy never addresses that and leaves him alone for episdies at a time. The only reason that Spike didn't do serious damage is thanks to The First NOT doing anything, and Giles for getting a device to de-trrigger him.
Buffy isn't a monster but she is needlessly reckless. Also Spike shows remorse towards Buffy, and yet none towards Wood or his mother- even though he affected both thier lives pre-soul.
Spike didn't know Robin was NikKi's son until he lured him in a room wallpapered with crosses, activated the trigger, and tried to violently murder him. I add violently because he wanted that fight and made it clear it was about hurting the monster from 1977 and not the souled guy.
But I agree he should've been more affected when confronted with killing her. I hated the whole conversation. Spike did spend months going crazy with guilt, became an unbathed derelict, and by Sleeper & Never Leave Me wanted to die for his soulless sins.
When did Buffy leave him for episodes? He was chained up in the basement when she wasn't around. He even said that when she's not there to protect everyone from him that he'll be chained up.
How was Willow in control? She returned before her rehabilitation was complete. Dawn even said, "She didn't finish learning how to NOT be evil?" She put herself on a literally different frequency from her friends on accident. She said, "I guess I've got a long way to go before controlling my powers." In Chosen she was still unsure how a complete loss of control would affect her, if she would go evil. It's why she only did small bits of magic that whole season until the finale. The few times she tried something bigger, it led to going red eyed and telling a victim "Shut your whimpering mouth", being possessed by the First, and siphoning energy from people without consent. She shook when she floated a pencil (or some item) because just the taste of power made her want to go Dark again.
That's not the reason why some fans, including me, are hard on Spike or Buffy in that season. Nobody want to see Spike dead. Nobody reproach to Buffy to help Spike. That's not the problem. The problem is that Spike is triggered and he could kill whoever he wants against his will (because I'm conscious that's not his choice and that's make him even more dangerous) and what Buffy did ? Nothing that help to fix the problem. She let him walk free, she remove the chip (she could have just fix it and it would have untriggered Spike), and When Giles came with finally one solution, what Buffy did ? Oh yeah she screamed against Giles ! that was very helpful ! IMO she was completely unconscious. And if I was the first I would have use Spike to kill them all in the night during their sleep ! I don't really understand why people don't understand a simple fact like this. I mean that's logical and actually normal to expect that someone who could kill you anytime is attached or watched until his problem is solved. I don't think it's crazy to think about your safety ! But indeed if Buffy and some others people take the risk, well, go ahead take the risk but don't expect the others to do the same thing and also prepare yourself to being called an unconscious !
all those characters who are so 'under control' have souls and had them when they did their bad things. They had conscience and judgement that Spike did not have.
Sure, they did bad things with a conscious and everything, but they then learned from their experience and never did it again (more or less)
Trigger-Spike killed repeatedly and had no knowledge of it because he had no control over his actions and therefore could not moderate his future behavior.
By contrast, Spike had no soul - but his heart told him that hurting Buffy was unacceptable, and and he went to the other side of the planet and fought for his soul, because of his bad thing. In that one instant, it becomes clear to him that he's unable to exercise true moral judgment even though he wants to give Buffy 'what she deserves'.
I don't hold Spike-with-a-soul for anything that he did pre-soul when he was merely a demon.
I might find how he chooses to represent himself post-soul as truly odious, shallow and cruddy but I do not think of him as the same character; just like Angelus/Angel. Angel doesn't get credit for killing The Beast- for example. The Beast kicked his ass and threw him off a roof.
I have to disagree.
Willow is certainly more penitent, Anya less so, Andrew cries genuine tears of remorse.
Spike- when not being made crazy by the First- demands forgiveness from Buffy by pointing out- again and again- how he feels about her and what he did for her (loves her, got a soul, repeat as needed).
It's not about her or her feelings, its about him and gaining credit. He also doesn't give a piss about any of his former victims apart from Buffy; as he told Wood. Wood was an exemplar of how 'reformed Spike' feels, which is why he is there; to show the difference between how Spike sees his actions and how Angel does.
Anya, Willow, Andrew, Faith- no other character acts this way.
Spike didn't rape Buffy, though nothing about his assault is in any way acceptable. Willow actually rapes Tara, calmly and with forethought and malice b/c she roofies her and she cannot consent in any meaningful way. We don't know how many times she roofied Tara. She was very comfy with those memory removal spells... She never really is called on that.
I agree that Willow did take away Tara's ability to consent, that was awful. But then Tara left her, and so Willow went about fixing herself without any thought of forcing her way back into Tara's life and demanding a second chance.
Spike turns up at Buffy's house with the knowledge of what his 'previous' self has done and says 'you need me' or some crap. Then the episode gets worse.
I find Willow's post-rape-y actions more sympathetic to be honest.
And she does all that after being called about her resurrection spell. Then she tries to end all of creation! You don't get further down than that unless you actually end the world. yet, she gets a pass. She is, if anything, more dangerous after trying to end the world, not less.
Yes, my main objection to Willow's arc is everyone giving her a pass; but she doesn't give herself a pass. She is constantly unsure of her magical ability and her control of said ability. It's part of her arc or whatever.
She is also seen to go and then come back from 'going dark'- so she obviously has the ability to exercise self-control. This is better than having no self-control. Trigger-Spike has no self-control unless the person happens to be Buffy- but only if he tastes Buffy's blood or whatever.
So trigger-Spike could potentially- and suddenly- massacre anybody in the house without warning and he could do nothing to stop it.
Willow could try to modify her behavior and people could point at her black hair/eyes and maybe run away.
Angel btw, also never fights for his soul, or seriously looks for a way to anchor it. Yet, he remains an ally too... even after facilitating the murder of those lawyers in the wine cellar
Not sure why we have to bring Angel up but okay, those lawyers were like, fated to die; that's why Cordelia got visions steering Angel AWAY from finding Darla and Dru and to helping some other guy worshiping a demon
Why would they do this unless the W&H massacre was unavoidable 'bad guys reaping what they sow' or whatever?
I mean, obviously what Angel did was way wrong, but then again he does a lot of good just for the sake of doing good and not just 'cause the girl he likes would approve if she happens to be watching.
The First certainly TRIED to influence everybody, but it didn't always succeed; Willow didn't commit suicide for example, Faith didn't turn on Buffy for another.
The First didn't influence Xander or Giles because- apparently- they aren't important enough.
The only people it influenced were Wood, Andrew and (maybe) Dawn. That's like less than 50%-ish success rate? Crappy, sloppy evil.
But the only person it could undoubtedly control time and again was Spike; just by humming a little tune.
No, not die but be chained almost all the time or with Buffy within staking/punching distance, and yet Spike is left on his own/near potentials and important characters for episodes at a time.
In fact at one point Buffy is stuck in the far past and the only person who can get her out is Willow. So its fortunate that The First went 'nah, I won't activate trigger-Spike to kill Willow, even though that would trap Buffy in the past AND not call forth another slayer....'
So, the good guys got lucky that the bad guy was thick?
The more troubling fact is that Spike doesn't seem to care that he is a risk, if he did then he would insist on being chained up almost all of the time.
In 'LMPTM' his behavior is deeply troubling; he knows he's still triggered and has been triggered for a while now- seemingly without his knowledge- and yet he insists that he be unchained and left to wander about. Buffy- astonishingly- lets him.
Then we should all give Giles a hearty thanks for finding a way to de-trigger Spike.
Buffy gets nothing because she did nothing. She 'trusted' in the 'fair play' of The First Evil not to use Spike until 'the right time'.
Oz was never controlled by an ancient evil, he was controlled by the moon (I'm gonna say the moon is chaotic-neutral);
When the moon was high they locked wolf-Oz in a cage or darted him unconscious. Those high-school Scoobies were smart.
No, The First wanted to sow dissent. It saw Buffy's favoritism towards Spike and took the opportunity to use Wood/Spike fracture the group. And it worked.
I mean seriously, how is Spike a threat? At this point in time why does he need to die? He's just a vampire.
Does The First some-how know that Angel will show up with a 'champion amulet'? In which case it should probably try and kill Angel rather than Spike, right?
On the other hand, Spike is an ace in the hole, a way to reach out and kill at any opportunity from inside the enemy camp. That's a neat trick that the general of said army doesn't seem to care about...
Sowing dissent is probably one of the smarter things The First did.
No, because Wood never did it again. If he had done it again then okay, you could break his leg or something. Whatever; repeated patterns of bad behavior need to be addressed.
I've never said that what Wood did was correct; I understand it- Spike WAS a threat but Wood also knew he was doing what the First wanted.
As far as I know Giles did NOT know this and was just being 'objective guy'. Buffy was being blinkered and not facing reality because of what Spike represented to her.
So everyone was wrong but Spike was easily the most unlikable.
(Angel btw, also never fights for his soul, or seriously looks for a way to anchor it. Yet, he remains an ally too... even after facilitating the murder of those lawyers in the wine cellar)
Angel doesn't have to fight for his soul because he has a soul. Now sure, Angelus doesn't fight for his soul. But that guy sucks, we really don't like him.
Demon!Spike purposefully obtained his soul, true. He also manipulated Buffy throughout s6 and then tried to rape her so I also don't like him either. I'll tell you what Spike didn't do. He didn't fight for his chip. You can thank the initiative for that one. If not for the chip he would never have become obsessed with Buffy and willingly asked for his soul (for her, to be hers). No, he would be off merrily torturing his victims with railroad spikes.
Season 7 Spike exactly analagous to Oz, who I hear no one suggest we kill, not even after he ripped the throat out of Veruca and almost killed Willow. Like Oz, Spike is dangerous, but he has a soul and he has good intent. He's a qualified and able ally, with a dangerous problem. He's NEVER the enemy to be put down.
No, but guess what we did with Oz? We locked him in a steel cage when he was a potential danger to others. Is it too much to ask the same be done with Spike?
No, but guess what we did with Oz? We locked him in a steel cage when he was a potential danger to others. Is it too much to ask the same be done with Spike?
This business that Spike feels no guilt? It's insane. He had to try to process what Angel had 100 years to process in the space of months. Of course, he put his guilt in his pocket. He always was afraid of acting anything but tough.
The irony? Spike would not have had the trigger installed in the first place if he hadn't felt tormented by guilt and ended up in the school basement. If he hadn't felt guilty and hadn't been mentally unstable, he'd have come back to Sunnydale, and found a place to live, just like every other time. Instead, he was basically insane for weeks, living under the school, talking to himself.
Spike actually asked Buffy to kill him at one point, instead of letting him be a danger... He didn't want to hurt anyone.
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Angel didn't fight to make his soul permanent. If he had, he might have had a chance to be with Buffy, who he claimed he wanted to be with.
I'm really surprised there's not more uproar or controversy in the fandom over the Buffy/Robin/Spike thing, it was honestly shocking and it was so risky and sensitive for Buffy and Spike to say what they did to Robin. Many people have lost their mothers *shrug* it's a bad move.
Yes, even Spike has lost his mum. He gets it. He's just almost DIED, however... at the hands of a supposed ally. If someone had just tried to murder you, I doubt you'd have reacted better.
Wood's actions were TREASONOUS.
I think that both Spike and Buffy were angry that in the middle of an apocalypse, Wood was willing to take out one of their soldiers. Wood was out of line. He is not part of the group, but he decides to substitute his rage for common sense, and to murder someone. He acts like an entitled little boy, not an ally in a fight to save the planet.
What people don't seem to get is that Spike is every bit a person as he is. Yes, he did (before his soul, before reforming) do the horrific deed of murdering Robin's mother and stealing his childhood. Not something anyone ever would forget. or forgive. Nor should he.
But... the world is at stake. This is not the time to take out the lieutenant of the only person there who's ever saved the planet. It is not even common sense.
In the scheme of things, had Wood died, the whole endeavor could have gone forward without more than a bump in the road.
Spike being murdered, could have been catastrophic.
The irony? Spike would not have had the trigger installed in the first place if he hadn't felt tormented by guilt and ended up in the school basement. If he hadn't felt guilty and hadn't been mentally unstable, he'd have come back to Sunnydale, and found a place to live, just like every other time. Instead, he was basically insane for weeks, living under the school, talking to himself.
1) We don't know when or how the First gave Spike the trigger. We don't know if Spike was walking around in his old crypt when it happened or if he was in the basement. We just don't have that kind of information. It could be that the First gave Spike the trigger and then Spike made his way to the basement. The First is not limited to manipulations in the basement alone. TF manipulated Angel in the comfort of his own home. No telling when it got started on Spike.
2) We don't know if Spike was "insane" as a result of TF's manipulations or his soul or both. When he was talking to himself he was sometimes talking to manifestations of The First. TF showed Angel images and it caused him to behave similarly (if to a lesser extent) erratically and it was unrelated to his soul at all.
3) There is no correlation between Spike feeling guilty (to which I do believe he does to a much lesser extent than I personally believe he should for my liking) and TF's ability to manipulate him or give him the trigger.
I'm not sure who you would like Angel to "fight" to make his soul permanent. I can tell you with a certain clarity that if he could fight someone or something to anchor his soul he would do so. Forget about Buffy, he would do it so that ALL of his friends and family (Connor!) and the entire world would be safe from Angelus. We don't know how much research he does behind the scenes to anchor his soul, its certainly not the crux of his mission. He basically takes the hand he has been dealt and he runs with it. (And obviously, the Doylist reason is that the fear of Angelus' return is a fun plot device and also if Angel solves his curse well then they have to deal with his potentially reuniting with Buffy and we can't have that because he has his own show.)
Also, the whole point of Angel leaving Buffy in s3 is that he wants something better for her than he feels he can give her (picnics and children and a life in the sunlight). He seems to be coming around in BtVS s7 to the idea that the "normal life" that she wanted for herself isn't going to happen and perhaps a relationship wouldn't be quiet so limiting for her. But before this, the reasons for them not being together were more than just the clause/soul issue. She wanted to try her hand at a normal life too as was demonstrated by what she tells him in IWRY (I'm actually heading towards a pretty good life now) and how she tries that "normal life" during seasons 4/5 (college, and parties, and Riley and sunlit beach picnics).
But regardless - if Angel could anchor his soul he would do it for dozens of reasons not just for Buffy. The clause is a plot contrivance. The plot contrivance that remains in effect at this point mostly to keep Angel and Buffy apart.
This business that Spike feels no guilt? It's insane. He had to try to process what Angel had 100 years to process in the space of months. Of course, he put his guilt in his pocket.
So I guess he keeps it in the pocket of the coat of the slayer he killed?
Spike's guilt is simple; does it affect me? (i.e Buffy) If it does I will feel bad for as long as she wants me to and then I'll shrug it off to become the Big Bad in a few weeks and never mention it again.
Wow, what a joke of a character.
The irony? Spike would not have had the trigger installed in the first place if he hadn't felt tormented by guilt and ended up in the school basement. If he hadn't felt guilty and hadn't been mentally unstable, he'd have come back to Sunnydale, and found a place to live, just like every other time. Instead, he was basically insane for weeks, living under the school, talking to himself.
This is simply a theory. Spike being made crazy by The First- and only the First- actually makes much more sense since Spike had enough where-withal to travel across continents- Africa to the West coast of the US- without getting burned to a crisp.
So he was at least functioning, it was only in Sunnydale that he was targeted by The First who was able to trigger him because of his Mommy issues that were there before he had a soul- it's why he got on with Joyce so well, because she was a Mrs. Mom type.
So what? So did Anya and Willow and Faith, it does not excuse how people react to their remorse after;
Spike got over it (okay) but then never really cared about the trigger after (crappy). Why? Because Buffy didn't I guess, but that's no excuse. Spike killed. Spike doesn't have to feel bad (or show remorse) all the time since he wasn't technically responsible but it is his responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen again. Otherwise he just ends up looking callous.
No, Spike KILLED his Mum- he doesn't get it. Spike killed his Mum and he feels so bad about it that 'rage trigger' and also he killed Wood's Mum and couldn't give a crap because what was she? A mother and a slayer and a darn good fight/kill and that's it.
Does that kind of selective remorse make any sense? Actually it does; basically if the person matters to Spike then he'll feel bad but if they don't? Eh, whatever, 'that wasn't me, you got the wrong guy/I'm reformed now'.
I guess he changes over on Angel where he becomes infinitely better- but since this was last minute reprise then we're supposed to think this is a great character arc or something in Season 7. It's not.
According to Buffy you don't have a right to be angry, or have vendetta's, the mission is what matters.
Good thing she never takes anything personally and lashes out violently at somebody who wronged her in the past. Otherwise she'd be kind of a hypocrite, right?
What people don't seem to get is that Spike is every bit a person as he is. Yes, he did (before his soul, before reforming) do the horrific deed of murdering Robin's mother and stealing his childhood. Not something anyone ever would forget. or forgive. Nor should he.
I disagree. Spike not being de-triggered would've been catastrophic,
Spike getting dusted means that- basically- somebody else wears the amulet. It would've been sad but Spike is NOT mission-critical, no matter what Buffy might claim.
It certainly wasn't character assassination for me. I really don't need someone to explain to me how a radical feminist text works. IMO, without S7 Buffy would have remained a "hot chick with super-powers". I don't want that from a feminist icon - I want a central character and a show that radically disrupts patriarchal binaries and deconstructs the phallogocentrism that nurtures it. It might have spoiled the show for you (I'm sorry) but it improved it for me.
I agree with you, but while I don't see Buffy's character being subjected to 'assassination' in S7 - quite frankly I love all the Buffys - I do think there is an underlying commonality between those like myself who just feel distanced and those who vehemently dislike who Buffy becomes and that is, as I said above, the matter of disconnection. I really do believe that had we been given more insight into Buffy, a chance to connect even a little, then we'd have fewer accusations of 'cold heartless Buffy' - or at least those voices would be in the even smaller minority. And I'm sceptical that this was the intent of the writing team. Certainly they managed to convey her sense of isolation from her friends and her navigation of her leadership role, but I get the feeling that the distancing felt so acutely by many viewers may have been more by accident than by design: a result of having too many ideas to juggle and being unable to give them all the screentime they needed. Joss has said in interviews that S7 was supposed to give viewers their anchor back in Buffy after the lows of S6, but it seems to have done the opposite for many - at least until 'Chosen'.
By the way, you've mentioned the show's deconstruction of phallogocentricism often but I haven't quite been able to grasp the finer points of your reading - i.e. the details of how you see this achieved. Would you be able to explain a bit more? (it's theoretically complex so perhaps this isn't the thread for it - maybe you could lay out your thoughts in a new thread where we could discuss them, a bit like WfB did with the topic of race?)
Character change, development and transformation become possible in this new television format, and such transformation does not rely on the cliché of stability-change-return that marks most episodic television. Rather, transformation occurs in the encounter with otherness. often the abject other, in Kristeva's terms (1982).and it does so in ways which either leave a character's body indelibly marked or upon which the trace of transformation will remain".
Cover seems to be referring to the show as a whole (as well as Angel), and most people who here express a dissatisfaction with S7 would say they do enjoy how metaphor, development and transformation is handled over the previous 6 seasons (well, ok some people hate S6 too, so S1-5 at least), so how do you see his summation with regard to the narrative of S7 in particular?
I disagree. If she were to do that then I think she's be even less recognisable as Buffy. What makes her relatable are her anxieties and doubts, what makes her a complex well-rounded character are her flaws, including her biases. If she was tough across the board, she wouldn't be Buffy; she'd only be The Slayer - the instrument of the Watchers' Council. While I do have issues with the decisions she makes because of how they seem to contradict her handling of past experiences, I don't expect her to be completely mature across the board either. My main problem in S7 is that I just can't read her like I could before. I often don't know what she's thinking or the perspective she is working off. If I did then at least when she makes a questionable decision I could understand it.
Spike getting dusted means that- basically- somebody else wears the amulet. It would've been sad but Spike is NOT mission-critical, no matter what Buffy might claim.
True but in LMPTM Buffy didn't know that yet. She seemed to be preparing for war based on physical confrontation, so at that point I can see how she would believe Spike is mission-critical. She has no idea that there's a convenient magical doohickey out there that can wipe out the Hellmouth all by itself.
True but in LMPTM Buffy didn't know that yet. She seemed to be preparing for war based on physical confrontation, so at that point I can see how she would believe Spike is mission-critical.
That's a fair point, but then wouldn't Buffy have taken the trigger a lot more seriously? I mean, she'd want her 'strongest warrior' to stop being a potential enemy agent I would think.
But I think you're right when you say that Buffy- being Buffy and not just the slayer- has her issues and biases when it comes to favorites and one of those bias' is Spike, for reasons that resonate deeply with Buffy's own issues.
I just...I've been following Buffy and her friends for 6 years so far, so its hard for me so see her cut them completely out and yet rely on Spike yet again. Season 7 shouldn't really have been about that, imo.
That's a fair point, but then wouldn't Buffy have taken the trigger a lot more seriously? I mean, she'd want her 'strongest warrior' to stop being a potential enemy agent I would think.
But I think you're right when you say that Buffy- being Buffy and not just the slayer- has her issues and biases when it comes to favorites and one of those bias' is Spike, for reasons that resonate deeply with Buffy's own issues.
I just...I've been following Buffy and her friends for 6 years so far, so its hard for me so see her cut them completely out and yet rely on Spike yet again. Season 7 shouldn't really have been about that, imo.
I think you've got it right when you mention the bias etc. The way I see it is from when Buffy gets brought back from Heaven etc and then what goes on with Spike, it's as though she seen her self being brought back as a sort of dark injustice, and what goes on with Spike is another side to that darkness. I think her bias to him in certain situations is possibly because he's seen a side of that darkness him self, it's like lookng at your friends and thinking "well yeah, I trust them, but they haven't seen what we've seen". I think a lot of her own issues at this time will always come around to being brought back. If you relate it to Angel with his soul, every day he fights etc to try and make amends, and to one day maybe have a sense of peace, and I think that's what Buffy was like, she went through everything that she did, finally got peace, and then was torn away from that.
It's a bit like in the final when Buffy tells Spike she loves him, for the first time, and he knows she doesn't mean it, it's as though that's a sign to stop the confusion, you don't leave me, the battle is now over, you can now go back to some sort of "peace". The smile on her face at the end is like a sigh of relief that obviously she isn't in this alone, but that the doesn't have to have the weight of the world on her shoulders every day now.
I think you've got it right when you mention the bias etc. The way I see it is from when Buffy gets brought back from Heaven etc and then what goes on with Spike, it's as though she seen her self being brought back as a sort of dark injustice, and what goes on with Spike is another side to that darkness. I think her bias to him in certain situations is possibly because he's seen a side of that darkness him self, it's like lookng at your friends and thinking "well yeah, I trust them, but they haven't seen what we've seen". I think a lot of her own issues at this time will always come around to being brought back.
That's certainly an issue in S6 but by the start of the next season Buffy is coping just fine with some of her depression issues (but I was never convinced they were fully resolved.
The connection she has with Spike this season is one of guilt; Buffy always blames herself- harshly- when her relationships go wrong; she did it in S2 with Angel turning into Angelus, she did it (to a lesser extent) when Riley left.
And she does it in S7 when Spike comes back. He's tormented, he got a soul for her, she used him, all of this re-enforces Buffy's neuroses about herself and relationships. It's the reason she's so invested in Spike 'he has a soul now, he can be a good man' when others have their doubts.
Spike's soul needs to matter to Buffy, and in the end it does; that's another part of the smile.
With that in mind it almost makes sense why Buffy treats Spike the way she does, from her perspective its not a love story its a story of her atoning for what she did to Spike.
That's certainly an issue in S6 but by the start of the next season Buffy is coping just fine with some of her depression issues (but I was never convinced they were fully resolved.
The connection she has with Spike this season is one of guilt; Buffy always blames herself- harshly- when her relationships go wrong; she did it in S2 with Angel turning into Angelus, she did it (to a lesser extent) when Riley left.
And she does it in S7 when Spike comes back. He's tormented, he got a soul for her, she used him, all of this re-enforces Buffy's neuroses about herself and relationships. It's the reason she's so invested in Spike 'he has a soul now, he can be a good man' when others have their doubts.
Spike's soul needs to matter to Buffy, and in the end it does; that's another part of the smile.
With that in mind it almost makes sense why Buffy treats Spike the way she does, from her perspective its not a love story its a story of her atoning for what she did to Spike.
I suppose you could look at the relationship/atoning two ways though.., and again it would depend on what you would think the outcome would be. As you said her smile at the end of it, it could be that he matters to her now, or that she feels she's done enough to give something back to what she did. I think he matters to her in a sense that she HAS to feel bad for what she did to him now, because of his soul, so he matters in that way, rather than matter in an anything else way.
I agree with what you said though, I think the underlying issues were always there in S7, continuing on from S6, we can only assume that either one - things did get better, or two, she was putting on a brave face and the encounters with Spike and the issues with Spike brought out those underlying issues. That relationship could be the embodiment of what she was going through with her self as much as him.
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This was from SMG when the cast got together for the 20th anniversary, this might sum it up pretty well.
SMG -
"People ask who I thought was Buffy's ultimate and I get a lot of hate and a lot of death threats – seriously," Gellar explained.
"There was something so beautiful to me about the Buffy and Angel story. I think that Spike understood a different part of who Buffy was and I think she needed to understand that and discover. But for me as Buffy, I think Angel."
As we agree that Buffy from S6/7 went into a darker phase, I think that's where obviously Buffy/Spike go through, they are the darker side of one another, where as on the other side you have Buffy/Angel who you could say are the right side.
I disagree. If she were to do that then I think she's be even less recognisable as Buffy. What makes her relatable are her anxieties and doubts, what makes her a complex well-rounded character are her flaws, including her biases. If she was tough across the board, she wouldn't be Buffy; she'd only be The Slayer - the instrument of the Watchers' Council. While I do have issues with the decisions she makes because of how they seem to contradict her handling of past experiences, I don't expect her to be completely mature across the board either. My main problem in S7 is that I just can't read her like I could before. I often don't know what she's thinking or the perspective she is working off. If I did then at least when she makes a questionable decision I could understand it.
I disagree with your disagreement of what I said. I don't want or need perfect Buffy, largely because Buffy never was perfect. Ever. But we have had strong Buffy before, but even that one wasn't without flaws or weaknesses. That was the Buffy I could relate to and even love as a character.
That...thing in S7 (which has been in development since S5) doesn't fall into that category. The one who has been defining herself as just a slayer, who completely gave up on Buffy the woman. The one who has the brainpower of a 5 year old and can't think beyond 'slayer strong, slayer smash'. This Buffy would never have survived the cruciamentum (sp?). The Buffy who was willing to even sacrifice people she loves because she values life is not even in the same ballpark as the Buffy who protects what is hers above the lives of others. If innocents die, who cares right. The one who doesn't slay evil or takes care of threats, at least when that happened in the earlier Seasons we got an explanation why and that it was actually wrong of her to do that. And she knew that herself. I still want to know why Spike, Harmony, Dru, The Trio or Anya were allowed to live or wreak havoc for as long as they did without Buffy lifting a finger.
I will forever prefer Graduation Day Buffy over the weak sauce Buffy we saw in S7. GD Buffy knew her own strengths and weaknesses and those of her allies. That's what she used during the battle planning and the battle itself. She didn't ask anyone to go out of their comfort zone and do things they aren't comfortable with while she herself refused to do so (ala Willow/Spike in S7 vs herself and the shadowmen). She didn't alienate her troops by thinking herself above them and treating them like expandable fodder. GD Buffy also knew to push back when someone tried to tell her how to live her life and do her job. The Buffy of S7 just took it all on herself because she was told to which makes no sense whatsoever.
S7 Buffy simply makes no sense to me. What's worse is, she was constantly wrong because anyone with a working brain and who can understand logic, knew most of what she said and did made no sense. Yet the writers kept bailing her out through writers fiat, so of course her decisions turned out right against all logic. And for none of it (plus all the other things wrong with S7 Buffy) do I get anything from the writing to explain to me why she is the way she is. And no, her talk with Holden doesn't tell me a damn thing, mainly because I don't even know how she got to that Buffy to begin with.
As we agree that Buffy from S6/7 went into a darker phase, I think that's where obviously Buffy/Spike go through, they are the darker side of one another, where as on the other side you have Buffy/Angel who you could say are the right side.
I suppose different characters understand different parts of Buffy dependent on the situation. Buffy and Angel have their unique, isolated roles and that means a certain degree of empathy. Faith gets Buffy's' 'slayer-self', her darkness because hell, she forecasts it early and often, Buffy's friends see her lighter side and humanity more than her love interests ever do.
Spike, to me, always seemed very situational. Yes he could empathize with Buffy to a degree in S6 but not totally, he didn't understand her darkness, he just thought that it was similar enough to his own to make them some kind of couple. He never got her pain or her self-loathing. He never understood why she couldn't love him even though they were in a physical relationship.
And in S7 it just seems like she is his support system because he needs the help and she is compassionate, he is her suport system because 'guilt'. I always found it a tenuous connection, but that's just me.
I suppose different characters understand different parts of Buffy dependent on the situation. Buffy and Angel have their unique, isolated roles and that means a certain degree of empathy. Faith gets Buffy's' 'slayer-self', her darkness because hell, she forecasts it early and often, Buffy's friends see her lighter side and humanity more than her love interests ever do.
Spike, to me, always seemed very situational. Yes he could empathize with Buffy to a degree in S6 but not totally, he didn't understand her darkness, he just thought that it was similar enough to his own to make them some kind of couple. He never got her pain or her self-loathing. He never understood why she couldn't love him even though they were in a physical relationship.
And in S7 it just seems like she is his support system because he needs the help and she is compassionate, he is her suport system because 'guilt'. I always found it a tenuous connection, but that's just me.
I suppose Buffy/Angel could have related to the self loathing if Angel was brought back into it at this point, as such anyway, they both have that self guilt and self need to try and make things right. I think with Spike as we said he gets one side of Buffy, but that's why I never really counted it as a relationship as such and didn't believe that she loved him, I think a lot of the guilt comes from not loving him, even though she probably thinks she should, she just can't.
I agree with you that the 'relationship' didn't come across as needed, it was a relationship that was self circling around darkness,hate,guilt etc. It was an endless circle of trying to make one another feel better, even though the one thing that probably would have made them feel better, was not being with one another. It's very similar to Angel & Darla in 'Reprise' once Angel learns that hell is basically earth, to make himself feel better etc he goes to Darla, if that sort of thing had continued on throughout that season, it would have been the same as S7 for Buffy I would think.
That's a fair point, but then wouldn't Buffy have taken the trigger a lot more seriously? I mean, she'd want her 'strongest warrior' to stop being a potential enemy agent I would think.
But I think you're right when you say that Buffy- being Buffy and not just the slayer- has her issues and biases when it comes to favorites and one of those bias' is Spike, for reasons that resonate deeply with Buffy's own issues.
I just...I've been following Buffy and her friends for 6 years so far, so its hard for me so see her cut them completely out and yet rely on Spike yet again. Season 7 shouldn't really have been about that, imo.
The people who tortured her by dragging her out of heaven may be people she cares about, but they aren't people she trusts, nor should she ever, particularly Willow, who should have known better. Of course, she's not trusting them. And why would she trust Giles? He abandoned her and then less than a year later, he's dumped the worst fight they ever face on her lap and also the responsibility of a bunch of whiny, out of control children who are a drag on her resources and a major disruption... and they certainly don't help her trust her friends more.
I think people who don't like Spike taking the place of Angel are enraged at him and hate him, so therefore, if she trusts him, (as she did immediately after the incident, when she went looking for him to take care of Dawn after Willow loses it) and if she continues to rely on him b/c she knows she can trust him to be on her side no matter what... well, that is a problem. Sorry, I can see her point. Her friends are untrustworthy. Her surrogate father has utterly abandoned her, and now demands she come to heel like his faithful council dog, and there's no way any adult warrior is going to accept that... especially when she knows they're wrong about the facts... and she's proven to be correct.
She barely recovered from the heaven debacle, and once again, her friends betray her.
In fact, her friends are taking sides with strangers against her... they even wonder if Giles is the First evil... because he seems off to everyone. Wood is an unknown quantity who proves he's untrustworthy. Willow has found Kennedy (someone who 'everyone' knows is not the right person for her).
Why should Buffy trust any of these people?
Spike may have had a trigger (he was fighting it, and was tied up when she wasn't around) but Buffy knew one thing without a doubt: Spike's intentions were to have her back. She doesn't know that about ANY of her so called friends. Even when Willow says she wants to help, she's afraid to do magic. Xander's blaming her for the injury he got for being in the battle. Who saved Xander again?
I think that thinking this is a little missed ONE of the most important theme of the show : Friendship/Family between the Scoobies ! But it also proves that season 7 is even more confusing and destructive for fans (including me) than what I thought.
I think that thinking this is a little missed ONE of the most important theme of the show : Friendship/Family between the Scoobies ! But it also proves that season 7 is even more confusing and destructive for fans (including me) than what I thought.
I sometimes wonder if season 7 is there to challenge the perception that everything is always right with friends and family etc? I think we can all agree that in one way or another season 7 was very different.., and for the final season, it should have been going down the path that WE thought it would..down the familiar road that we were used to with Buffy.., but you have to wonder if that's why they chose season 7 to become darker, just to sort of say "these are what times can be like"
I think I would be less hard on season 7 if it was wasn't the last season of the show. I mean if we take the season in itself it's not so bad, it's entertaining and I would be probably okay with all what happened in season 7 if there would have a season 8 to fix all that mess in the development of the characters.
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