Idea/Theory.....help!

[What happened to good TV?]

Ok. I want to write a series of fan fics about the following, but its the concept that I need help with. So rather than posting it in the fan fic section I thought here would be more the place for the discussion I hope to have. (Apologies if there is no sense making)

Basically my idea was:
All the events of Buffy and Angel to have been orchestrated by a 'higher power.' The powers that be, the senior partners, and the first evil are all not real. They were all just used as a means of manipulating certain groups by this 'higher power'. The intent being to see how they can create champions. Buffy, Willow,. Angel, Faith, and Spike all being separate 'projects'. Other characters have been atempted to be made into champions to. (This idea was inspired by Metal Gear Solid, if your familiar with the story of that, and The Patriots attempts to create the 'perfect' soldier, maybe you'll have a clearer idea of where I'm coming from)


I feel like I am not explaining this well, but basically I wanted people to pick wholes in my 'theory' so I can then use that information for my fan fic. Is there any event that would not fit with the idea of creating a champion? Is it too far to say that the senior partners, the powers that be and the first evil were all just a means of manipulation?


(Once again I apologise for this perhaps not making sense.)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Well did the PTB's, SP's and The first know they were being manipulated?

 

[nerd4hire]

Well, the Senior Partners do have a law they have to adhere to. You can postulate different theories as to why that might be, but the fact remains - the law exists, and it doesn't always favour the Senior Partners.

With The First Evil we have an existence of a force representing evil. From this we can postulate the existence of other forces of equal, or superior power. Otherwise why isn't the TFE in charge.

The Powers that Be left this reality under pressure. Something exists which can pressure TPB.

In my opinion Joss has left the whole question of who's in charge here, and what do they, or it, really want purposefully open, and I don't have a problem with anything What Happened to Good TV is suggesting as a fan fic.

 

[What happened to good TV?]

Thanks for the comments/questions guys!

Well now I'm torn. After reading BEG's post an idea entered my head. Rather than worry about fitting everything in that N4H said, what if the higher power just used The first evil, the senior partners and the powers that be as names. The first evil that we saw in season 7, and season 3 of Buffy wasnt the real first evil, just a ghost created by some magical mumbo jumbo by this higher power. They pretended they were the first to test Angel in season 3, and to manipulate Caleb and to allow the evnents of season 7 to unfold. With the powers that be and the senior partners they were just names also, that they used to try and create a good and evil 'side', to again test angel, as to which 'side' he would fight on. Although part of me feels this would be just an easy way out rather than the making of a good fan fic.

with your post N4h I realise that my knowledge of the senior partners, and the history of the powers that be is not great. Without Angel season 4 or 5 at my disposal to view I think I'll find it hard to fully understand the things we know about them. Like the laws that the senior partners have to abide by and the history of the powers that be being driven out of this dimension.

 

[nerd4hire]

One thing I would be curious about is if this is a single entity doing all this - why? What's he, she, or it getting out of it?

You know what it kind of reminds me of? I mean I know it's not the same thing, but it kind of clicks on my old "2 of these things are kind of the same" Sesame Street reflexes. It kind of reminds me of those old Ray Harryhausen, Greek Mythology movies like Clash of the Titans, or Jason and the Argonauts. In those you have the Greek Gods playing chess with the universe, figuratively, and at times literally.

That isn't a dis btw. I love those shows.

 

[What happened to good TV?]

No offence taken N4H! 🙂 Having the higher power as Gods is intrigueing...

well my origonal plan was that this higher power wanted to test how to make a champion. A 'perfect' fighter if you will.

Out of the people who they have been manipulating (Buffy, Angel, Spike, Faith and Willow) they find who is the best champion. They could replicate the scenario that got the individual to champion status, and in turn be able to create an 'army' of champions which they could use for their own battle.

If people think this is a pile of crap please say! Or if people have ideas, please say!

Bare in mind that evreything is in the planning stages I plan on writing a series of fan fics on each Angel, Spike, Faith, Buffy, and Willow snce the events of both shows, and a fanfic that would be the higher power revealing itself and its plans, not necissarily to the champions themselves. I haven't really decided yet! 😛

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I quite like the idea, you could use it as a chance to answer some of those questions like, Who gave Willow that sudden power to restore Angels soul, Who brought Angel back, Who lifted the Vampires can't enter the house rule to allow Angel to save Kate.

 

[nerd4hire]

I'm getting confused now. Did this higher power invent The SPs, PTB and TFE for the specific purpose of creating champions? That's a heck of a lot of work going back to before the dawn of human existence and crossing realities to other dimensions, according to canon. Is all that really worth it? Is this for champions who have been created throughout the history of this world and others, or wait a minute, are you going to say the Buffyverse is a kind of virtual reality, training ground with fabricated history and memories?

 

[What happened to good TV?]

Well going by my origonal plan(Sorry if this isnt explained well)

This higher power is from another dimension and put simply is in need of some fire power, hence the creation of champions. The higher power has only been intervening in the natural order and manipulating the verse since Angel was turned by Darla. Everything from then on,( Plus the events leading leading up to him being sired)

Although on second thoughts this seems to have loop holes in it.

'the Buffyverse is a kind of virtual reality, training ground with fabricated history and memories?' That would be cool. I mean they changed everything in season 5 with the memories of Dawn. Maybe that could be included as a 'test' in the 'simulation'.

 

[Lyri]

what about if this 'higer power' person used the same methods Sahjan (sorry, i know it's not spelt right) used to change the prophecy about Connor killing him and created the one about Angel killing Connor? except, instead of changing prophecies, he/she/it chnaged the history or literature about the First? either creating it altogether, or altering the facts already there. making it more powerful than it maybe started out as. same principle could apply to the SP's and the PTB's.
(did that make sense? lol)

also, if this 'presence' is interested in 'making champions' to fight for him/her/it, couldn't there be some 'failed attepts'? for example, Kendra, Cordelia, Tara, Anya, Doyle. something could have went wrong with whatever plan 'they're' working on, resulting in their death. Doyle's death may have resulted in this being changing it's focus to Cordelia, since she was obviously the last thing on Doyle's mind. if 'they' were watching everything (anyone else having Big Brother flashes?) he/she/it might have seen the kiss between them as a way to pass the visions to Cordy and make her his/her/it's new test subject.

just a theory, but let me know what you think.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

'the Buffyverse is a kind of virtual reality, training ground with fabricated history and memories?'

Hmm...could this tie in with "Normal Again" from S6? One of the most intriguing eps IMO. That was an alternate reality just aching to be explored again...

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

On the whole I like the basic idea.

I do think some things either need explaining in better detail or spending more time developing, for instance, Why?
You say that some being has/is manipulating all of the events in order to create a super soldier, but do you have a definite plan on why this is so. Is this part of a much larger battle happening on another plane of existence?
IF that is the case then we could show one success in the form of Cordelia. Her final episode implies that the PTB's had sent her onto something more important than the 'Earthly' worries, could this be part of that.

Also as an opinion, i don't like the idea that the First, the SP's and the PTB's were all 'Ghost' or whatever, personally i prefer that they are all pawns in the plans of this Godlike entity, that was it doesnt feel like the viewer/fans have been cheated for combined 12 Years, that these entities were real in the sense that they believed they were doing what they wanted to, thus making all the victories and losses of Buffy, Angel et all still have a meaning, a resonance.

Also, i think you need to watch seasons 4 and 5 of Angel before you embark on this as it gives you far more information regarding the PTB's and the SP's as well as(if only briefly) the SP's relationship with something like The First.

Another opinion i have is regarding your list of Champions.
Buffy - Yes
Angel - Yes
Faith - Yes
Willow - Yes
Spike - Yes
They are all great but I have issue of one you have left out.
Xander.
If you are trying to determine the best, you need every senario, you need to try every variation, and his story is just as powerful as the others.
In most stories where there is an attempt on Humanity, its hardly ever a super hero that is the champion, its the human within. Its the soul of the person.
Xander exhibits all the qualities of a Warrior, of a Champion, without the super strength, the magical ability or the Vamp stuff.
His story, in the idea you are suggesting would be one of interest as it delves into the idea that a man of no decernable talent for warfare is just as capable in the long run as a Demon or a Slayer.
His success could be seen in the way he either defeats his enemies, the way he stops the world ending(Season 6) or by the way he knows when he is in over his head.
This one could focus on the strength of will, character, determination and love.
Remember the old saying, 'Love Conquers All' well, could this entity test that theory?

 

[What happened to good TV?]

Thanks Lyri. The failed attempt idea would be interesting to explore. Previous Slayers all being failed attempts!

Mr Pointy! I fogot about Normal Again! (Not sure how! Awesome episode) That could be a test on Buffy to her dedication to her SLayer duties. If she was willing to give up all what she thought was real for a normal life then obviously that would've been a fail against her name!

DDLM! Thanks for the mega feedback! I'll try and answer/comment on everything!

My origonal plan was that this higher power needed some champions to battle for/with them. Theres a war going on in their dimenson and they're in need of assistance. With the time differences between dimensions I thought it could work.

Cordelia! Good Idea!

With TFE, TSP, and the PTB I did feel that it might seem an easy way out rather than the making of a good fanfic. Others have said the same, so I think I'll change it so that they were real in a sense but unknowingly being maipulated by this higher power.

Yeah I think I do need to watch thsoe seasons again! PLus hey, any excuse to buy the dvds...I need money, fast!

Xander! Thank you! His story and progression would be really interesting to do! I think I do need a wider selection of champions, and as Lyri said some failed attempts as well as the successes!

Like I've said this is all in my head at the moment, anything can be changed. I think I need more work on the reasons behind the higher powers need for champions. Any ideas for a believable and interesting reason that they would need a champion. It just being a war seems a bit...I dunno. There needs to be something more.

The 'revised' plan is:
A higher power has been manipulating the events of the Buffyverse from Angel (Or Liam rather) being sired to present day. This higher power is in need of champions for a battle in a higher plane (Perhaps The Final battle....although again it seems a little simple...I think I need to think about this one a bit more) The higher saw the complexity of this dimension, and thought as a source of creating a champion would be the perfect place for experimentation. Slayers proving to be a worthy part of the manipulation process. Finding knowledge about the past slayers, which ones survived for the longest they began manipulating. With Vampires and other demons defeaing slayers, they too were poentials for champions. After seeing Angelus being hard to control, and witnessing humans, who also had potential for champion status, were inspired by their willingness to fight for a cause. Their Souls that made them fight against the odds. (Think Anyas speech about humans, season 7) So they gave Angelus a soul. The shansu prophecy and Spike as a cometitor all factors in seeing how to manufacture a perfect champion. Faith and Buffy the out come of may failed attempts to manipulate the Slayer. Buffy having Friends, Faith being Jelous of Buffy situation, seeing if that would drive her to being stronger and a better champion. Willow and Xander were the main Human 'experiments' with Xanders heart, and Willows magic being elements that over time had all ben building up to create a champion. Anya would be a test to a shift from demon to mortal, but ultimately was a failed experiment.Tara being a similar experiment to Willow but also used as a tool o drive Willow (The dark Willow project to see how powerful this champion was. Doyle a fighter alongside Angel who also was ultimately a failed atempt. Cordelia being a success story, ascending to a higher plane.

I think I may have been just rambling but I just wanted to get everything down in some way! Keep the feedback coming! Thanks!

 

[Angel's vision]

You could take it from the ally bit IF you are going to have them on a higher plane, also are you going to incorporate the start of a thousand year war bet good and evil bit, as mentioned in the shanshu prophesy..?that would make sense if you are going for the final battle bit.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

IF you are going to make the Earth a 'testing' ground sort of thing, then i recommend that you establish that it is still a reality, its just the higher powers have manipulated events.
I would also suggest that you keep the Senior Partners as the villain, as that could show they too use this dimension as a testing ground, that they too use the Earthly resourses to find their Champions for the fight....this would explain why Holland and Lilah were able to come back, it would explain the 'Contract after Death'.

Also, why was Doyle a failed attempt.
Forgive my ignorance but did he not find his reason, his power did he not sacrifice himself in the name of good.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I really like the idea, but what about Illyria as a champion? Something like wesley's death was to make her more human, to give her emotions and make her feel so she would fight.

Also your gonna need a way for this higher power to make the champions fight, cuz I don't think after finding out this was all an experiment they would be so willing.

What about making it making the reason the Slayer line become disrupted was because of something this thing did during the resurrection of Buffy, it allowed the line to become different which allowed the First to act, but this was all being manipulated just to make new slayers (Champions, maybe bring in a new character) and to push Willow to the full extent of her power?

 

[What happened to good TV?]

Thanks Angel's vision! My origonal intent was that the Shanshu prophecy was just a way to drive Angel(and Spike), to ultimately make them better champions. the idea of them competing , both wanting the prophecy would be used only as a means to improve them as champions. Also Angel signing away the prophecy, another part of the experiment. I also intended in my Spike fic to have him in a similar situation where he must give up the prophecy. Although with the higher pwers strong power there is no reason that both of them would be rewarded at the end anyway...

DDLM thanks for the ideas! senior partners suggestion noted. I don't want to diminish their status as a big bad. Plus like you said, it could be used to explain a few things.

'also, if this 'presence' is interested in 'making champions' to fight for him/her/it, couldn't there be some 'failed attepts'? for example, Kendra, Cordelia, Tara, Anya, Doyle. something could have went wrong with whatever plan 'they're' working on, resulting in their death. Doyle's death may have resulted in this being changing it's focus to Cordelia, since she was obviously the last thing on Doyle's mind. if 'they' were watching everything (anyone else having Big Brother flashes?) he/she/it might have seen the kiss between them as a way to pass the visions to Cordy and make her his/her/it's new test subject.'

I was taking Lyri's theory into account. I must've looked past Doyle as a significant champion. hmmm...it could be argued that his sacrifice was selfish, as he ws gifted with visions and he decided to ppotentially give up Angels connection to the powers, to save 'meaningless' beings. Although this is a bit harsh, it could represent the attitude of the higher power...I'll need to think about this more too 🙂

BEG! Thanks for the ideas! Illyia has the potential to be a great champion, like you siad, Wesleys death could be part of her project. Plus it would be a good character to write about.
Also who said they knew they were part of an experimnet when they are fighting? Who said they find out at all? Although if they do know they would need a reason that would make them fight. Although I'm sure I can think of ways that the higher power would be able to force them to fight. Getting them to believe they are fighting for good, having an incentive, like the shnshu prophecy, or threats, perhaps using dawn as a tool against Buffy or something. Again another thing I'll need to think about more 🙂
About your idea about the disruption, it was similar to the idea I had, the higher powers intent was to make an army of Slayers, but you explained it better than I could've put into words!

Thanks again guys!

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Ohh, Illyria/Fred.
Just had an idea, you tell me if its interesting....
What if this was a design by these higher powers to test not only the reaction of others with a comrade being taken and replaced, but also the way a human could deal with ultimate power.

Say for instance, the reason it was impossible for Fred to be brought back wasn't because her soul was destroyed, but because these higher powers hid her away inside Illyria....testing the effects of HUmanity on an Old One, see if they can control it, tame it.....the sparks of Fred we see, arent memories but infact Fred herself.

 

[What happened to good TV?]

looks like the ingredients for a pretty darn awesome fic!

(I would give you rep but I need to spread some around!)

Bare in mind that its been a while since seeing the whole of season 5 Angel but I'd say it was impossible to contain the entire power of an old one within a human, as to my knowledge time went all shifty. But the device that removed some of Illyria's power, showed that part of it could be. Maybe the higher power could go to the deeper Well and unleash the power of the Old ones on a selection of humans.....hmmm....Gunn perhaps? Xander? ANDREW!!!! That could be cool.

 

[Lyri]

the reason i suggested Doyle as a failed attepmt, Al, was that basic princilpe of free will. this being can't really control everything, there has to be certain things that are left to free will, for them to make their own decisions. Doyle's free will enabled him to sacrifice himself to save everyone, which this being may not have seen coming, but was still able to use this act to move onto Cordelia.