Ideal Love in Jossverse

LadyLavinia

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Ideal Love
From "The Non-Ideal of Ideal Love" by Dee Halliman

quote:
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There are many things that contribute to a long lasting relationship. One of the most important things is that both people see each other for who they really are. Many times couples idealize each other in their minds, and reality hits them much too late. This ideal love is far from ideal, and in fact is the foundation of a very unhealthy relationship. It happens when two people go through the phase of infatuation and never move past it. They each only see the good qualities of the other. They think that their love can overcome their differences without putting in effort. Sometimes, this relationship flaw is apparent to others, and sometimes it is very subtle. Couples have to move past the stage of infatuation and come to a realization that no one is perfect, and that this person they each fell in love with is no different. Each person must realize their own flaws to be able to accept the flaws in their mate. Two people must be able to see the flaws in each other, and not criticize but still love each other in spite of the flaws they find. Couples shouldn't necessarily search for the flaws, but they should be aware of them when they encounter them, and they should find a way to resolve the issue before it gets out of hand. No two people are alike, and no two people have the same flaws. That is why no two people love in quite the same way. It is a hard balance, because you don't want to share all of the same weaknesses as your mate, but you also don't want to have weaknesses that your mate could use to take advantage of you. But, when you start to discover the flaws in your partner, an amazing thing happens: you discover your own flaws. In the process of self discovery, a couple can improve themselves much more together than they ever could alone and as they work on improving themselves, they grow closer together.
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Reading this article made me curious. Why do so many people prefer ideal love - especially in fiction? Has there ever been an article about this topic, especially in regard to the Jossverse?
 
I'm not an expert, but I think people like to read about Ideal love and happily ever afters because they're so few and far between (if they even actually occur) in our own lives.
 
D
doppelgänger2
"I believe in a thing called love..." No I don't. Anyway, I think you're right. But then again, that's the reason I don't like to happily ever afters
Cordelia said:
I'm not an expert, but I think people like to read about Ideal love and happily ever afters because they're so few and far between (if they even actually occur) in our own lives.

Tried to give you rep for this but it wouldn't let me. :hatePC2:

I totally agree with you. True love is so rare (I ain't found it yet, that's for damn sure) that we want it in our fiction. The reason we read or watch fiction is to escape, if just for a little while, the real world, so we want happy endings since they occur so rarely in the real world.
 
really not in my opinion. there is enough real love in real life but that doesn't mean for one second that even the most real and beautiful love comes without working for it, everything has a price, the thing about love is that it brings you to the point when you realize once and for all - it's worth it.
i for one second, don't support the notion of ideal love in fiction. not to say i purposefully avoid them, but i need my couples to not only share true love but also go through their share of heartache, angst and pain. i don't think there exists a relationship during which you don't shed a tear even once and if there is such thing, odds are it's all fake.
taking an example from the recently relevant subject, i'm probably the only person in the world ho thinks christine should be with the phantom 😉
 
Desperately rushing forward to keep things on topic so he doesn't have to move the thread he says...

I'm not sure there's anything in the Jossverse that supports the theory that idealized love is ideal love.

Let's look at a few.

From BTVS: Angel/Buffy. Presented as a great, deep, and eternal love, but let's face it these guys have nothing but problems.

From ATS: Fred/Wes. Both have a tendency to idealize their love interests, but you just know it's not going to end well. From the beginning it caused Wesley very little but pain.

From Firefly: Zoe/Wash. These guys work at their relationship, and it appears to have the rare privelage in a Jossverse relationship of actually appearing to work.

However... as a viewer which one would you rather watch Buffy/Angel or Zoe/Wash.
 
From Firefly: Zoe/Wash. These guys work at their relationship, and it appears to have the rare privelage in a Jossverse relationship of actually appearing to work.


This reminds me of what Monica said to Chandler in an episode of FRIENDS. She told him that she didn't believe in soulmates or love at first sight. She believed that a couple had to work at making their relationship work. This comment had pissed off a lot of fans of FRIENDS, but she was right after all.
 
Of course Monica was right. I mean Friends might idolize love a bit more than BtVS does, but still, some things are just right.. there as well.

One of the things I love so much with BtVS (can't speak about AtS) is that things are so real. (You know I'm not talking bout the supernatural thing right..?) And one of those things are love. It's really hard to make love "real" on TV, one of the reasons are that love in always different, every time, for everyone. But still, I think that BtVS love is real, that's one of the reasons why it's so sad... Cause love is, or can be.. Love is hard (duh, I think you know that). I don't think BtVS idolizes love.. The only relationship I can think of is Tara/Willow, their love seems to be So perfect for a long while, but I believe that they are the ones idolizing their love, I don't think that's the show really (not sure I said that right, hehe).
 
Speaking of Willow's relationships, I was watching New Moon Rising last night, and it was seeming to me like both Oz and Tara had a pretty mature attitude concerning relationships.

They were willing to make compromises and work towards solutions, but at the same time they had a pretty clear idea about where the line was where the relationship just wouldn't work. Upon reaching that point they showed a willingness to part with Willow as friends.

It's pretty hard to come to any conclusions on where Willow stands concerning such stuff from that episode, but from later episodes, she appears to be a fan of the quick fix, something that's probably not effective long term.

Personally I can't come to any hard conclusions concerning the Willow/Kenney thing. The evidence was inconclusive, but to me that relationship seemed more hormonally based. Kennedy made some adolescent, poetic promises, but I never got the feeling she was in there for the long haul, or knew what it would take to get there, the way Tara and Oz did.
 
nerd4hire said:
Speaking of Willow's relationships, I was watching New Moon Rising last night, and it was seeming to me like both Oz and Tara had a pretty mature attitude concerning relationships.

They were willing to make compromises and work towards solutions, but at the same time they had a pretty clear idea about where the line was where the relationship just wouldn't work. Upon reaching that point they showed a willingness to part with Willow as friends.

It's pretty hard to come to any conclusions on where Willow stands concerning such stuff from that episode, but from later episodes, she appears to be a fan of the quick fix, something that's probably not effective long term.

Personally I can't come to any hard conclusions concerning the Willow/Kenney thing. The evidence was inconclusive, but to me that relationship seemed more hormonally based. Kennedy made some adolescent, poetic promises, but I never got the feeling she was in there for the long haul, or knew what it would take to get there, the way Willow and Oz did.


I don't know if the Willow/Kennedy relationship was hormone-based, especially after what they had went through in "The Killer in Me" and "Get It Done", and what Kennedy had confessed about herself in "Chosen". With those two, we never got a chance to see their relationship develop since the series ended in that season. But I was not surprised when Andrew told Spike in "Damage" that they were still together, after a year.
 
LadyLavinia said:
But I was not surprised when Andrew told Spike in "Damage" that they were still together, after a year.
Really? I had no idea, but I would have never thought they'd be together after a year... I don't think they would have been if BtVS hadn't ended...
 
Yeah Epo. Here's the quote from Damaged where it's told:

ANDREW
Well, mostly, I talk to Rupert. But we all check in. Xander's in Africa. He sent me an mbuna fish. And Willow and Kennedy are in brazil. They're based in Sao Paulo, but, um, every time I talk to them, they're in Rio.


But ya know...don't you get the feeling from that, Willow and Kennedy are shirking their responsibilities to party in the mardid gras, party capital of Rio De Janeiro?

It always seemed to me like Kennedy was just another quick fix decision of Willow's to get over Tara by having hot times with the lust-driven young sex-kitten. And yeah, times like that can sometimes last years, but you don't grow old together and such relationships rarely, if ever, end happily. (experience talking)
 
X
Xander
Had to give you Karma just for saying "lust-driven young sex-kitten"
I have to disagree with you on Willow and Kennedy's relationship. I don't at all think it was a 'quick-fix' thing. Willow had dealt with that problem (e.g. solving things through magick). And if it was just hormones, why would she have resisted Kennedy's advances for as long as she did?

Willow ends the series by doing something done of the other characters can do: moving on. She accepts that Tara is gone and moves on to a relationship with Kennedy. Xander is still in love with Anya and Buffy is still torn between Angel and Spike. So Willow once again becomes the rock of stability she was earlier in the series by accepting that the past is past and moving on to the future.
 
It's OK. You can disagree. I won't bite. 🙂 Mine is just an opinion.

One thing I think we can agree on in the context of this thread is that whether or not Willow does idealize her relationships she has no problem if she has to (or I guess you would say, is able to) move on from them. Also I guess in Willow's mind if one of her loves is the ideal love, it's not necessarily the only love. Not to suggest that's a good thing, or a bad thing, just a thing.
 
Half on topic, what irks me is teenagers (and im aware I am one) that thing love is so great and sweet and their partner is so perfect and nice and lovely and great and super and caring and SHUT UP!

Rant over, back on topic. I think the reason for the idolised love between Tara and Willow was becasue of censorship and they had to keep their relationship down to a minimum on screen for a long time. Wasn't the kiss in "The Body" the first gay kiss on The WB and I'd imagine they would have had to have been pushed to accept that it should be aired. The most we saw before that was what, them holding hands and stroking hair. Willow and Buffy have done the same at times so I think maybe there was no arguements really because The WB did not want to make it clear that this is a naughty lesbian relationship.

Im a strong believer in the harsh realisation that love isn't grand but maybe once in a while in fiction its nice to see it. It is fiction after all, I love the way Joss has torn down most of the lovely relationships but there is still part of me that finds the lovey dovey Angel/Buffy or Willow/Tara moments almost comforting.
 
nerd4hire said:
Yeah Epo. Here's the quote from Damaged where it's told:

ANDREW
Well, mostly, I talk to Rupert. But we all check in. Xander's in Africa. He sent me an mbuna fish. And Willow and Kennedy are in brazil. They're based in Sao Paulo, but, um, every time I talk to them, they're in Rio.
Ah, thanks, I haven't seen Angel. But, I don't count the things that happen after BtVS ended, cause it wouldn't have been like that if the show kept going so.. In my opinion that's not really for real.

I agree that the Tara/Willow relationship is way too idolised. I used to love them together, and well, I still do, sort of, I think they were "right" for eachother, sure. But their love is too sweet and.. No, really, there's nothing wrong with their love or their relationship, they probably had problems just like everyone else (I mean before the big magic thing). The problem is that we never get to see that, we only get to see how super sweet they are together, which can be nice but also quite ... boring (wrong word but I don't know what to call it), after a while. I think that Tara and Willow idolised their own love, just like everyone else in BtVS did, and that's why we did too. No-one saw any problems and that's why we didn't get to see any either...
Or was Tara/Willow just the perfect love? And the perfect relationship (If we overlook the whole magic thing) that would have lasted forever..? I hate to believe it was, but I guess that could be sweet in some ways too...
 
Xander said:
Wasn't the kiss in "The Body" the first gay kiss on The WB and I'd imagine they would have had to have been pushed to accept that it should be aired.

Right you are.

The story behind the kiss goes thusly: Joss felt it was time for Willow and Tara's relationship to go beyond the metaphor of magic-as-gay-sex and, in keeping with the physicality of the episode, totally fitting in this episode. He also wanted their first kiss to be low-key and not the center point of an episode and putting it in this episode does that and is nothing more than one person who loves another showing that love and support the way most people in love do.

This attitude almost backfired in Joss's face however. WB's head honchos called and wanted the kiss cut. Joss refused saying it was real and beautiful and belonged in the episode and that if they tried to take it out, he would leave the office and never come back. He reportedly returned to his desk and started packing before the suits called back and relented.

It wasn't until the move to the UPN (and the obvious carte blanche they gave Joss) that you saw Willow and Tara act more like a 'real' couple would.
 
eponinethen said:
Really? I had no idea, but I would have never thought they'd be together after a year... I don't think they would have been if BtVS hadn't ended...

I think they would have. I think we would have been given the opportunity to watch their relationship grow.


The problem I had with Willow and Tara is that their personalities seemed too similar to me. I've always found the idea of a couple with similar temperaments as unhealthy . . . almost smacking of narcissm. You know, falling in love with someone who is very similar to you. And couples like these tend to project an image of idealized love. Granted, we saw Willow and Tara encounter problems in their relationship. They even managed to reconcile before Tara's death. But I cannot help wondering how long they would have lasted as a couple if Tara had survived. Around the time of their reconciliation, Willow had never really dealt with her problems. And I also wonder how long each would have been able to deal with a personality very similar to the other.
 
Willow had so dealt with her problems. Trying to stop a habit cold turkey is very difficult and Willow was on her way to a better path. Unfortunately, Tara died and not only put her back on that path, but a little further up the road. I'm not saying they would have been together forever or that Willow would ever become completely "cured", but you have to give the girl credit for trying.
 
LadyLavinia - I know what you mean.. To me they weren't that similar, but they became similar. I mean Tara was way shyer and didn't at all have Willow's sense of humor, they didn't really think like eachother and they didn't act like eachother either... But after a while Willow became more and more lie Tara.. I mean when they were just the two of them they seemed to be just like eachother. I think both of them got too much into their relationship... Of course it's good that they had eachother and loved eachother but.. I don't know.. I sort of agree with Cordelia that Willow had dealt with her problems, I mean she really wasn't doing any magic and she refused to use magic at Buffy's birthday (or the day after, to be exact)... But maybe she needed that thing, maybe she needed something to happen.. Not saying she needed Tara to die, just the thing that follow.. it was scary and terrible but it made Willow way better... Ok, I'm off track, not sure what I'm talking about anymore, sorry..
 
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