If Cordelia had been the one to kidnap Connor instead of Wesley, what would Angel do?

That just isn't plausible, Cordelia was Connor's surrogate mother and the significant thing that sets her apart from every other character in the franchise is that she believed in Angel like none other, to the point that she gave up half of her humanity on it. That's the key. When she looked at him she saw a man more than she did a vampire. The concept of it being Cordy who'd discovered the fake prophecy is intriguing as it would have put her faith in Angel to the ultimate test, but I believe nothing would have convinced her that Angel was capable of harming his child.

"You really piss me off, you know that? I thought we trusted each other, but you've been lying. MRIs, Cat scans, it's been going on for over a year? Why couldn't you let me in? I could have helped you!"
- Angel, 'Birthday'

For argument's sake, however, I think it would have been a much deeper betrayal, the entire life he'd built in LA wouldn't make sense anymore. Angel trusted Cordelia more than anyone with Connor. It wouldn't be pure rage, it would be a brain numbing combination of rage, confusion and heartbreak not just from losing Connor but from losing Cordelia. His dearest friend and the extraordinary woman he was falling in love with would suddenly be a stranger to him. He was used to not being completely trusted, even by his own team, but Cordelia was the exception. Her faith in him had been his fuel, but that as well as their entire relationship would be up for question and hence himself. She was the reason he believed he was the champion, that he could be redeemed so if she was a phony for those three years, was all of it?

While the rage in him would be urging him to attack her I'm not so sure he'd be able to bring himself to and there's no way he would have let himself kill her. There would still be a part of him that wanted to believe the woman he'd known, that he'd come to love was still there somewhere.
Connor may have been everything to him but whether he was capable of murder regardless of who the kidnapper was is up for question. I've come to realize that there is something off regarding the incident with Wesley about how two human nurses managed to overpower a being with inhuman strength and the only explanation that makes sense is that he'd wanted to be stopped because he'd never intended to kill Wesley but didn't want him to know that. Having to live with one's sins is the ultimate suffering. That's the whole reason Angel had the curse put on him, death is no suffrage at all but, in fact, a mercy and this was Angel's precious miracle child, his shanshu, mercy wasn't even considerable.
With his hundreds of years of experience, if he'd wanted to kill Wesley he'd have been able to do it in seconds and been out of there before catching the attention of any of the nurses. A morphine OD injection would have been efficient. It's quick, silent and with Wesley's condition there wouldn't have been any suggestion of murder (this happened in a Cold Case episode except in that situation it was mercy, the patient was a few days away from death by cancer).
Even if we were talking about Angelus, however, the suffering method is actually more his style. He'd always liked toying with his prey then digging in while they were still alive to enjoy their pain rather than being the typical fast kill type.

Cordelia would have wanted Angel to hear what she has to say as much as Wesley, but she wouldn't have expected his forgiveness, she'd have conceded to being unworthy. She'd have been filled with guilt the whole time she was running with Connor even with certainty that it was the right thing. It would destroy her to have betrayed Angel's trust and their friendship. That would be how he'd punish her, by doing nothing while she punished herself. Seeing her punish herself would bring him relief because it would be a spark of hope that his dearest friend might not be lost to him.

white avenger said:
Buffy or Faith. Even in the same injured state as Wes (or maybe not, considering Slayer healing abilities) I think that Angel would have been less apt to attack either one of them.
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Why? What makes either of them exempt?
 
Cordy_Chase said:




Why? What makes either of (Buffy or Faith) exempt?
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Simply that he would not be able to easily overpower either of them, even in an injured state, and, as I said further on in my post, I don't think that Angel was as uncontrollably enraged as he pretended to be, otherwise no one would have been able to pull him off of Wes as easily as those two human orderlies did before he was dead. Angel was angry, certain, even enraged, by what had happened, but he wasn't UNCONTROLLABLY enraged. He knew exactly what he was doing, the same thing that Angelus was famous for. He was making sure that Wes would be tortured by guilt and the rejection of his peers for something that wasn't really Wes' fault, exactly the same way that Angel had been tortured by guilt and rejected by Darla when he was cursed with his soul.

Look at the parallels. Angelus was doing exactly what he thought that he was supposed to do, what his group saw as their right: stalking, torturing, and killing humans killing and draining some sweet young thing, and probably defiling her body in the process. Wes, also, was doing what he believed that he should do, what his group saw as their mission: protecting the innocent from harm. Through no fault of his own, Angelus was suddenly assailed with guilt and rejected by his group, made to feel that he had somehow been turned into something despicable. That was a far more diabolical torture than merely dustiing him ever could have been, regardless of the ultimate result of becoming the Slayer's lover and a Champion to mankind. Even after the good things happened, the guilt, the torture, still remained. That was the punishment that the Gypsies gave to Angelus, and that was the punishment that Angel wanted, at that moment, to give to Wes. Not a quick, relatively clean death, but years, even decades, of guilt.

Angel is simply Angelus, with a soul, a conscious, and a moral compass, but, just like Rupert Giles, his dark side is still there, still accessible, still ready to act. Angelus was a schemer, a plotter, and a torturer. He went for the pain and the slow kill. That's what he wanted for Wes, as close to what he, himself, had been feeling for the last couple of centuries. Killing Wes would have been merciful, and Angel wasn't in a merciful mood at that moment.

Call all of that a stretch if you care to, but just remember, I'm the guy who looks for the hidden meanings, the obscure sub plots, and the often lack of logic in the surface story. I'm the conspiracy theorist who can give you valid reasons why the second rifleman was on the grassy knoll and why Bruce Lee was actually murdered by the traditional Chinese martial arts community.
 
I agree that he wasn't uncontrollably enraged, as I pointed out I too believe he was intentionally going for the slow torture rather than a kill. He had to have let those two nurses overpower him for them to have been able to do so.

white avenger said:
Call all of that a stretch if you care to, but just remember, I'm the guy who looks for the hidden meanings, the obscure sub plots, and the often lack of logic in the surface story.
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Same, I'm that gal. Granted I don't always do the best job of it logically, but I enjoy trying none the less. 🙂
 
Wow, it's hard to imagine that, even in the hypothetical because it would be so out of character for Cordelia. But if she had done it, I doubt he would've taken such a violent approach, but the trust would definitely be gone. But I also think they probably would reconciled faster because I think Cordelia would've worked harder for forgiveness then Wesley did. Wesley just sat around his apartment wallowing in self pity and being mad at his friends for not having his back, even though what he did warrants their anger.
 
I find it hard to say, because I honestly struggle to imagine it going so far with Cordy. Wesley was in full watcher mode; keeping it secret while he did what "needed" to be done. Keeping big stuff to herself isn't exactly Cordy's strong suit to begin with. I certainly can't imagine her meeting with Holtz and Justine.

But imagining this did all go down... like say Cordy was sent a fake vision of Angel killing Conner or something and kidnapped him. I seem to be in the minority, because I actually do think Angel could have been as violent with her as he was with Wesley. If anyone had been instrumental in losing Angel's son, I think he'd have responded with the same anger.
 
VisionBoy said:
I find it hard to say, because I honestly struggle to imagine it going so far with Cordy. Wesley was in full watcher mode; keeping it secret while he did what "needed" to be done. Keeping big stuff to herself isn't exactly Cordy's strong suit to begin with. I certainly can't imagine her meeting with Holtz and Justine.

But imagining this did all go down... like say Cordy was sent a fake vision of Angel killing Conner or something and kidnapped him. I seem to be in the minority, because I actually do think Angel could have been as violent with her as he was with Wesley. If anyone had been instrumental in losing Angel's son, I think he'd have responded with the same anger.
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Had Cordy been there it wouldn't have happened - but I do think she would have taken Connor. She just would have given Angel a lecture on getting too happy and taken him for the night. No way would she have fallen for the rest of the scheme - Cordy would have run in the other direction from Justine, or even run her over with her car.

Wesley had no one because Gunn and Fred didn't know Angelus, and would need protection. Worse, if they let Angelus know that Wes was on to him, they would have all died. Lorne - the same - well, worse since Lorne was unable to lie or hide anything. Cordy could have helped if Wes had been able to contact her. She would know what his fears were - been able to help him be less isolated - talked to Angel and to Lorne.

As for Angel wanting Wes dead - give me a break. He could have snapped Wesley's neck in seconds. Hell, he could have pulled his heart out of his chest. I think that was more of a warning.
 
Well as I said, I can't imagine it, I'm just rolling with it hypothetically for the sake of the question.

When did I say he wanted Wesley dead? I don't believe he did. That doesn't mean what we saw from in in the hospital wasn't genuine anger and a desire to scare the living sh*t out of him for what he'd done.
 
I think Angel would have scared the bejesus out of her like he did with Wes. I don't think he would have put a pillow over her head because it's obviously not death that scares her anymore but I think he would have asked to have a word with her alone. Then he'd more than likely describe the happy ending love life that he HAD wanted with her up until that point. I think his last words to her would have been along the lines of, have fred gather your stuff up and get the hell out of my house. I'm pretty sure he'd get bumpy forehead for emphasis.

Faith he'd just have her sent back to jail and stop visiting her. I think she'd get the message.

Buffy wouldn't be in the hospital either because of you know, slayerness and whatnot. I think there would have been a huge argument, with some violence. I don't think Angel would throw the first punch but I think he'd goad her into getting physical. One would best the other but not to the death. If he won, he'd say something along the lines of never coming to him for help again, and that she should have stayed dead. she'd probably say under her breath that he should have too, If he lost, he'd say something about her taking connor away out of jealousy that they couldn't have children together and vow that if she were to eve have kids that he'd o the same to her.
 
Having literally just rewatched the episode this morning, it shocked me as to how brutal it actally was.... more so than I remember.

I honestly believe that if it were Cordelia, it wouldn't have been as violent. He would have scared her, he would have been so angry she would have cowered and maybe feared for her life, but I don't believe he would have treated her like he did Wesley.
 
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