If "Seeing Red" Had Never Happened...

[The Bronze]

I don't think it's on record on the show but I imagine the chances that Spike hasn't raped anyone to be vanishingly small. He was a soulless vampire, second in notoriety only to Angelus. He was trained by Angelus. He wasn't monogamous with Dru (she slept with Angel, Spike and Angel talk about not being with Darla and Dru together, implying they'd been with each separately). Spike talks of the "things" he'd done to girls Dawn's age.

The word might not have come up so I guess it's not official canon but I can't think of any reason why he wouldn't have. Which changes nothing about my opinion of soulless Spike. He was always an entertaining villain.

 

[Bluebird]

On the contrary, having his character stay the same, without change or development, over 5 years, would be dull

I agree

And if he hasn't changed very much, then he's as dull as a table lamp to me.

 

[white avenger]

He wasn't monogamous with Dru

I got the distinct feeling that Spike actually was quite faithful to Dru, despite the fact that she didn't afford him the same courtesy. Otherwise, why would he have reacted so strongly the first time that he found out that Angelus had slept with her? If it was a "Yours, mine, and ours" arrangement among Angelus, Darla, Dru, and Spike, what would have been the point of his anger and jealousy?

Spike talks of the "things" he'd done to girls Dawn's age.

There are other "things," far more horrible and despicable, than rape.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I really don't see why it's such a sticking point that Spike raped, or why it's hard to accept.

In film and tv, rape is used as the "a special kind of evil" trope. Basically, if you want a villain to be particularly heinous, you have them rape. It's why Warren goes from an entertaining villain to an evil scumbag after that Katrina scene. It's also why the AR happened, because the writers needed Spike to cross or nearly cross that line which should never be crossed. If the AR had been successful, Spike would've crossed the moral event horizon and would not have been able to come back from that.

In television, you don't make one of your regulars a rapist unless you're going for the "evil all along" trope. The AR was meant to be Spike crossing a line and him realising he's crossed a line. How can that happen if Spike has danced across that line in the past with no problem? You can't go the AR on Buffy is bad because it's Buffy but any previous rapes are ok and you should still like this character because they were in the past and weren't Buffy. (When I say you, I don't mean you you, but you in a general sense. Does that make sense?)

For the record, I am a "he." I thought that that was common knowledge.

I'm sure I've seen it before that you were a "he" but I had a complete mind blank so thought I'd better play it safe.

Spike said on one occasion that he was "all about the kill," and implied that Angelus seemed to prefer humiliation, intimidation, and torture, which, by implication, would probably include rape. "All about the kill" doesn't, to my mind, bring about any images of sexual assault. He also asked, "Do you know what I've done to girls Dawn's age?" which might have included rape or sexual abuse, but might just as easily meant only torture and intimidation. We assume that Spike has raped his victims in the past, just like we also assumed that he went to Africa to get his chip removed, but, though some fans refuse to accept it, Joss says that he always intended to get his soul. Just goes to show, as Samuel Jackson said in "The Long Kiss Goodnight," "When you make an assumption, you make an 'Ass' out of 'U' and 'Umption.' "

Agreed. Spike was more about the violence and the quick kills, Angelus went for the whole torture and take your time. In my opinion the "Do you know what I've done to girls Dawn's age?" line doesn't make sense if it's meant to imply rape for several reasons:

1. It bears no relation to current events. When Spike was being triggered, he was killing and siring, not raping. Why bring up past deeds if they have no relation on the current plot? For the record, Dawn's age in season 7 would be about Buffy's age in season 1 and 2. We saw what happened to a girl "Dawn's age" with Sheila. Spike lured her in then gave her to Drusilla as a meal.

2. In season 7, the audience is supposed to feel sympathy for Spike. You don't elicit sympathy from an audience by revealing that said character is a rapist.

3. Spike's soulless persona and souled persona aren't different unlike Angel and Angelus. Angelus is a rapist and is clearly portrayed as evil and is clearly meant to be seen by the audience as evil. Angel is not held accountable for Angelus' misdeeds. Spike is meant to be seen as one of the good guys.

I don't think it's on record on the show but I imagine the chances that Spike hasn't raped anyone to be vanishingly small. He was a soulless vampire, second in notoriety only to Angelus. He was trained by Angelus. He wasn't monogamous with Dru (she slept with Angel, Spike and Angel talk about not being with Darla and Dru together, implying they'd been with each separately). Spike talks of the "things" he'd done to girls Dawn's age.

I disagree. See above on my reasoning for the "girls Dawn's age" line.

I think Spike was faithful to Dru. We see him turn down the bride Angelus offers him in favour of spending time with Dru, and season 2 bashed you over the head on how devoted to Dru Spike was. Spike isn't necessarily bothered by rape, he kind of went "good for you" when he thought Angelus was raping the bride before finding out it was Drusilla, but Spike isn't into that himself because he's to in love with Dru. Whilst rape isn't about the sex it's about the power, Spike would still see it as sleeping with someone else because his idealised view of love is that he should be with Dru and ONLY Dru.

Angelus' line "you never let us do that" after finding out the Immortal had a threesome with Darla and Dru isn't because he and Spike had discussed it (unless I'm forgetting a scene) but because at that moment in time Angelus considers Spike as an ally on his side against the immortal. Kind of a "So you won't let me or Spike have a threesome with you but you'll let the immortal? That's not fair!". Also I think it is Darla who is the stick in the mud on threesomes. I don't think Darla would sleep with Spike but also I don't think Spike would go for Boy/Boy/Girl. In Crush, Spike and Harmony must've discussed a threesome at some point because Harmony said that she'd told Spike before no threesomes unless it was Boy/Boy/Girl "or Charlize Theron".

In regards to Angelus/Dru, I think there are underlying issues there, I've talked about it a lot on other threads so I won't repeat myself here, but I don't think its a simple case of Dru just opening her legs to Angelus. In season 2 she was still sleeping with Spike whilst he was wheelchair bound as Angelus said that she was giving Spike "pity access". If Dru was cheating on Spike out of vindictiveness, she wouldn't still be sleeping with him. Post season 2 she did cheat out of vindictiveness and Spike called her out on it.

I got the distinct feeling that Spike actually was quite faithful to Dru, despite the fact that she didn't afford him the same courtesy. Otherwise, why would he have reacted so strongly the first time that he found out that Angelus had slept with her? If it was a "Yours, mine, and ours" arrangement among Angelus, Darla, Dru, and Spike, what would have been the point of his anger and jealousy?

Agreed. See above on the Angelus/Dru situation. Spike definitely had a "Dru is mine" mentality, he had it in the past and he had it in season 2.

 

[zianna]

I got the distinct feeling that Spike actually was quite faithful to Dru, despite the fact that she didn't afford him the same courtesy. Otherwise, why would he have reacted so strongly the first time that he found out that Angelus had slept with her? If it was a "Yours, mine, and ours" arrangement among Angelus, Darla, Dru, and Spike, what would have been the point of his anger and jealousy?



There are other "things," far more horrible and despicable, than rape.

Spike is talking about raping.
In the parenthesis are my comments.


"
SPIKE
I'm not talking about the cellar. The people in the cellar got off easy. I'm talking about me. Buffy, you have never met the real me.

BUFFY
Believe me, I'm well aware of what you're capable of."

(Here Buffy remembers her AR)

"
SPIKE
No, you got off easy too."

(Buffy got off easy, she just had the experience of an attempting rape, she wasn't raped in the particular way that Spike enjoyed, continues explaining..)

"Do you know how much blood you can drink from a girl before she'll die? I do. You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they'll still cry when you— (chokes up) 'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry."

(The trick is to drink just enough blood to make them not being able to resist and fight him but at the same time still conscious and aware if what he was doing to them and how he was raping them, hearing them crying,,because rape is not worth it if there is no cry.
So Buffy got off easy with the AR.

As for Spike being faithful or not to Drusilla, he was as far as enjoying sex and not only receiving but giving pleasure as well was concerned.
Rape is in the vampire's nature and it's not considered cheating.
So Spike yes he was faithful but was raping as well.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Spike is talking about raping.
In the parenthesis are my comments.


"
SPIKE
I'm not talking about the cellar. The people in the cellar got off easy. I'm talking about me. Buffy, you have never met the real me.

BUFFY
Believe me, I'm well aware of what you're capable of."

(Here Buffy remembers her AR)

"
SPIKE
No, you got off easy too."

(Buffy got off easy, she just had the experience of an attempting rape, she wasn't raped in the particular way that Spike enjoyed, continues explaining..)

"Do you know how much blood you can drink from a girl before she'll die? I do. You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they'll still cry when you— (chokes up) 'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry."

(The trick is to drink just enough blood to make them not being able to resist and fight him but at the same time still conscious and aware if what he was doing to them and how he was raping them, hearing them crying,,because rape is not worth it if there is no cry.
So Buffy got off easy with the AR.

As for Spike being faithful or not to Drusilla, he was as far as enjoying sex and not only receiving but giving pleasure as well was concerned.
Rape is in the vampire's nature and it's not considered cheating.
So Spike yes he was faithful but was raping as well.

He could still be talking about torture. He used to drive rail road spikes through his victims hence how he earned his name, he also used to be known as "William the Bloody" because of the violence he inflicted. He probably just killed and sired the people in the cellar, no torture.

The point is, in television and movies, when you want a character to garner sympathy from the audience, you keep them as far away from committing rape as possible. The shock factor of the AR, both in-show and out of it, is diminished if Spike has raped before. Why would he be shocked by the AR if he'd done it before? Why should the audience be shocked if Spike has a history of it? Why should Buffy be considered a special snowflake because of the AR yet other nameless victims of rape get hand waved away?

 

[zianna]

He could still be talking about torture. He used to drive rail road spikes through his victims hence how he earned his name, he also used to be known as "William the Bloody" because of the violence he inflicted. He probably just killed and sired the people in the cellar, no torture.

The point is, in television and movies, when you want a character to garner sympathy from the audience, you keep them as far away from committing rape as possible. The shock factor of the AR, both in-show and out of it, is diminished if Spike has raped before. Why would he be shocked by the AR if he'd done it before? Why should the audience be shocked if Spike has a history of it? Why should Buffy be considered a special snowflake because of the AR yet other nameless victims of rape get hand waved away?

In the particular scene, Spike was trying to make Buffy dust him.
He had just killed 10 people, God knows how, she found those people turned into vampires trying to kill her, but she still couldn't dust Spike. He then attacks even Andrew in her house, but still she doesn't dust him.

Of course he plays the rape card afterwards, the whole scene makes no sense if he talks just for "torture".
Buffy has never seen the real him, she says she has, he replies that she got off easy because what he used to do to girls Dawn's age was even more terrifying, raping them just before killing them. She got off easy with the attempting rape.

Spike wasn't shocked about his attempting rape, he was shocked that he tried to do that to Buffy the person he claimed he loved. And then he is also shocked why he didn't actually do it.

"SPIKE: Why *didn't* I do it? (looks up at the ceiling, sighs) What has she done to me?"

When Buffy managed to pull him away, he stopped. He could have kept on trying, but when she says "asks me again why I could never love you" he gets shocked and realizes what he tried to do and stops and runs away. And later in his crypt he tries to understand why he stopped, why he "didn't do it".

You are right about what you say about rape in television, which is EXACTLY the reason why they NEVER say it explicitly and just let the viewers understand it from the meaning, reading between the lines. They do the same with Angel, who raped Drusilla when he killed everyone in her family before killing her

"Drusilla: Black sky. It wants a little wormy me.
[Angelus and Darla break apart and look over at a sobbing Dru.]
Drusilla: No. No. Make it stop!
Darla: What is she doing here? I thought you killed her.
Angelus: No. Just her family.
[He pushes Darla down on the floor and rolls on top of her.]
Drusilla: Eyes like arrows - like-like needles.
Angelus: This one's special. I have big plans for her.
[He leans down to kiss Darla.]
Drusilla: Snake in the woodshed. Snake in the woodshed. Snake in the woodshed! Snake in the woodshed!
[Darla rolls them over so she's now on top)"


Drusilla talks about a "snake in the woodshed" when she's already mad because of what Angelus did to her.

Another scene, when Darla brings the gypsy girl as a gift to Angelus and she says she wants to "watch" and Angelus fall on the poor girl biting her thigh. Jenny's uncle says he defiled her, that he "destroyed her" he doesn't say just kill her although it's exactly what he says for the rest if her family.

"Enyos: So you just forget that he destroyed the most beloved daughter of your tribe?! That he killed every man, woman and child that touched her life?! Vengeance demands that his pain be eternal as ours is! If this, this girl gives him one minute of happiness, it is one minute too much"

Holtz implies that Angelus raped his wife before killing her, Angelus admits she was a screamer.
Angelus even says the word himself

"Like smacking your girl around? I betcha Wes would never hit her. He's all proper and English. And that accent—Oh, chicks just love a good accent. Makes 'em all buttery in their nether regions. Isn't that right, Fred? You know, I had a bit of an Irish brogue back in the day. If you'd like, I could use it on you when I rape you to death... or—"

The sex scene between Angel and Darla in AtS S2 was supposed to be a rape but they were afraid of what the viewers would think of a protagonist in his own show raping a woman and changed it, etc

Throughout the seies, both of them, there are tons of implications of Angelus and Spike raping.
Vampirism itself is a metaphor of raping.
Spike yes, he used to rape, a lot.
So did Angelus, Spike's teacher.

 

[white avenger]

Spike is talking about raping.
In the parenthesis are my comments.

And that is your interpretation, which, clearly, not all fans share. It seems more logical to me that torture and rape would be Angelus' thing, while violence (more specifically, fighting) and killing were Spike's. That's what makes the two characters unique.

 

[zianna]

And that is your interpretation, which, clearly, not all fans share. It seems more logical to me that torture and rape would be Angelus' thing, while violence (more specifically, fighting) and killing were Spike's. That's what makes the two characters unique.

So Spike wonders why he didn't rape Buffy because he was only torturing with spikes.
He talks about GIRLS Dawn's age (not people, not teenagers, not children, not kids, not persons etc but GIRLS) because he liked to damage them just enough just before he...tortured them and heared them scream?
He chokes up and isn't able to say the word "kill" or "torture" in front of Buffy for what reason? In the same scene before he specifically admitted of killing half of Sunnydale..

Not to mention that Angelus used to be Spike's mentor and he was the one who taught Spike. The first years (or months, whatever) Spike was looking up to him and following him and Angelus considered him a partner in crime. So if Angelus was raping, then Spike was following his footsteps.

And yes you are right that Angelus was more into torture, but NOT just flesh. He was going for the psychological torture, the reason for stalking, killing relatives, people beloved, hunting the victims, etc. It's what he did to the gypsy girl, it's what he did to Drusilla, it's what he tried to to do Buffy in S2.He considers the crazy slayer in AtS S5 a masterpiece, he's all about psychological torture. But that takes time, effort, studying the victim, stalking it, and that is no fun.

While on the other hand, Spike is more into fun. He hates studying the victim, he is not patient, he follows his blood not his brain. Which is why he attacks Buffy in her school and doesn't stick to his plan. Angelus' way is way more careful, making the right moves on the right time only. But that is no fun and needs patience. Spike is all about the fun, attack, get what you want, not caring if he'll draw attention and he'll have to fight for his life.

It is absolutely your right to interpret whatever scene in any way you want. I can't control what's in your mind. But no matter how you interpret what, Angelus and Spike were raping. They were even "swingers", he says "you never let US do that" to Darla and Drusilla when they learn that they had sex together at the same time with the Immortal. He uses plural, which means both Spike and Angelus were having sex with both girls, just not at the same time. Or that they BOTH wanted to swing but the girls didn't let them.

Spike's whole "monogamy phase" with Drusilla during their years together is not based on monogamy like we mean it. It is based on permission. And rape is what the fang four was enjoying doing, since it's what vampires do. Drusilla was raped by Angelus before getting killed, but once she becomes a vampire she doesn't hold that against him and she even has sex with him, because rape is not a shock anymore for her, it is something normal.

So yeah, Angelus is more into torture than Spike, but he is into more psychological torture. Physical torture is what Spike likes, William the Bloody, and rape IS a PHYSICAL TORTURE.
Rape becomes a psychological torture ONLY AFTERWARDS, once the victim survives and has to live with the consequences of the physical torture he/she was put into.

 

[Bluebird]

So Spike wonders why he didn't rape Buffy because he was only torturing with spikes.
He talks about GIRLS Dawn's age (not people, not teenagers, not children, not kids, not persons etc but GIRLS) because he liked to damage them just enough just before he...tortured them and heared them scream?
He chokes up and isn't able to say the word "kill" or "torture" in front of Buffy for what reason? In the same scene before he specifically admitted of killing half of Sunnydale..

Exactly. Why is souled Spike uncomfortable and choking up over torture and killing? The whole point was that souled Spike didn't take responsibility for what he did without a soul (that is text).
He wants Buffy to stake him at that point. He is using the reminder of him being a predator and rapist in the past and bringing up the AR so she would stake him. He believes he's dangerous around girls. He knows what he's done in the past.
If silly shy William is Spike and Spike is William, and there is no difference between human and vampire, then I don't see the point of making him a soulless vampire villain. Why not make him a human villain? A saintly soulless vampire is the biggest loser of them all, as far as my interest goes. But I don't believe Spike is as dull as that. I think he was ripped apart by knowing how his romanticism had been corrupted into obsession and rape etc. That's a good story idea.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

And that is your interpretation, which, clearly, not all fans share. It seems more logical to me that torture and rape would be Angelus' thing, while violence (more specifically, fighting) and killing were Spike's. That's what makes the two characters unique.

Agreed. Angelus was definitely a rapist, and because of that, they made Angel as different to him as possible. It is very clear which one is souled and which one isn't. Spike never had that distinction which seems odd if the writers decided to give him a rapey past because they want the audience to have sympathy for Spike in season 7. You don't elicit sympathy by telling the audience to feel sorry for a rapist.

So Spike wonders why he didn't rape Buffy because he was only torturing with spikes.
He talks about GIRLS Dawn's age (not people, not teenagers, not children, not kids, not persons etc but GIRLS) because he liked to damage them just enough just before he...tortured them and heared them scream?
He chokes up and isn't able to say the word "kill" or "torture" in front of Buffy for what reason? In the same scene before he specifically admitted of killing half of Sunnydale..

Spike is not horrified at witnessing rape, he was practically cheering Angelus on when he thought Angelus was raping the bride, but he doesn't partake himself because he is too hopelessly devoted to Drusilla. Spike's romantic poet nature wouldn't let him, when he falls for a woman, he falls hard, and he wants to be with her and only her because that is a big romantic notion. Sex with another person (even if it is rape) would contradict that world view. It's one of the reasons why Spike gets pissed at Angelus for sleeping with Drusilla, as by doing so Angelus is ruining Spike's romantic view of his and Drusilla's relationship. Spike wonders why he didn't rape Buffy because he's SUPPOSED to be a soulless monster but he's feeling genuine shock at his action like a human should. His "can't be a monster, can't be a man" line is because he's caught between two worlds yet doesn't quite belong in either. Rape shouldn't bother him, it never bothered him before even though he didn't partake (see above), but it bothers him now. If he'd tried it on any of the other Scooby women, he'd probably be reacting in the same way. He shouldn't care but he does care, he cares about what he did a lot, and that confuses the hell out of him.

So because the victims are girls Dawn's age, they must automatically be victims of rape because they can't have possibly suffered any fate other than that? Spike could obviously get pretty nasty with his torture, earning him a reputation as the "most violent vampire in history, second only to [Angelus]". If Spike was raping like Angelus, then why aren't they on equal reputation? What did Angelus do that elevated him to number 1. IMO the answer is that Angelus raped alongside the torture which made him THE WORST whilst Spike only tortured people horribly which made him bad but not as bad.

Spike probably is horrified at how low he could go on the torture stakes. Imagine this scenario, he's got a girl Dawn's age, he's bitten her and drank from her but not enough to kill her. She's still alive and well aware that she's alone in a room with a monster. She's terrified. Spike then pulls out a railroad spike and sticks it through her leg. The girl screams from the pain. Spike then pulls the spike out and sticks it in again. He lets the girl know it's going to be a long night (the implication being he's going to be stabbing her with the spike all night). The girl is screaming for mercy and crying with pain as the railroad spike goes into her yet again, over and over, and not necessarily in the same place twice.. Spike is feeling pretty pleased with himself as the girl screams yet again because of the continuous impalement. The girl eventually begs him to kill her, wanting to die because she can't stand the pain, so Spike does exactly that, taking pleasure in the fact that he got someone to beg him to kill them (which he was going to do anyway) but he forced them to ask to die.

Also in season 2, Giles read out a passage about Spike that said he'd earned his name by "torturing his victims with railroad spikes". The main question there is what made that particular type of torture so noteworthy that Spike's reputation would be built around it. He was "William the Bloody" with a violent streak, so what was it about the torture with railroad spikes that was so significant that it earned Spike a new name? I think it was not only the viciousness of it but the type of victims it was inflicted on aka Girls Dawn's age.

Also by season 7, girls Dawn's age were the same age as Buffy was in season 1&2. In "School Hard" we saw Spike lure in Sheila (who was in Buffy's year) tie her up and gag her and give her to Dru to snack on. So although "Girls Dawn's age" kind of makes you think of season 5 Dawn, we're actually taking season 2 Buffy Dawn if that makes sense.

Not to mention that Angelus used to be Spike's mentor and he was the one who taught Spike. The first years (or months, whatever) Spike was looking up to him and following him and Angelus considered him a partner in crime. So if Angelus was raping, then Spike was following his footsteps.

Spike turned down the bride that Angelus offered him in favour of spending time with Dru. Angelus then slept with Dru in order to teach Spike a lesson and Spike was PISSED at him because Angelus did it completely out of spite. From what we've seen of Angelus and Spike in flashback, they got along on occasion but they weren't best buddies. Spike isn't someone to follow blindly, he does what he wants, hence why Angelus and him had a scuffle in the mineshaft because Spike was doing his own thing and landing the Whirlwind in trouble instead of listening to Angelus.

It is absolutely your right to interpret whatever scene in any way you want. I can't control what's in your mind. But no matter how you interpret what, Angelus and Spike were raping. They were even "swingers", he says "you never let US do that" to Darla and Drusilla when they learn that they had sex together at the same time with the Immortal. He uses plural, which means both Spike and Angelus were having sex with both girls, just not at the same time. Or that they BOTH wanted to swing but the girls didn't let them.

I disagree for several reasons.

1. Dru wouldn't be bothered about sleeping with Angelus and Spike, she does it anyway.

2. Spike doesn't like to share Dru, especially with Angelus.

3. When a threesome was brought up in relation to Spike in "Crush", it was strongly implied that he and Harmony had a conversation about it and Harmony had told him that she'd only agree to a threesome if it was Boy/Boy/Girl or "Charlize Theron". Considering Spike hasn't taken her up on that offer, he wants two women and him, hence why a Spike/Drusilla/Angelus threesome is out. It is likely Angelus shares the same view, two women or no dice. As an additional note, Spike never loved Harmony therefore he wasn't hopelessly devoted to her like he was with Drusilla.

4. Darla is obviously the sticking point. From what we've seen of her in flashback, she doesn't seem to hold Spike in high esteem which suggests that a Spike/Dru/Darla threesome was never really a likelihood.

5. Upon finding Darla, Spike says that the immortal had made Angelus "a right cuckold". In other words, the immortal had his way with Angelus' woman. Spike regards Dru as his and Darla as Angelus' so why would Spike a) sleep with Darla when he's in love with Dru, and b) get so worked up over Angelus sleeping with Dru if it was just a simple case of sleeping with Darla instead.

6. Angelus' use of the word "US" isn't because Spike has wanted a threesome and not got one either, but because against the immortal, Spike is on his side and is part of his team. In other words, Angelus is including Spike in the "us" but what he's really saying is "It's not fair! You never let ME do that!"

Spike's whole "monogamy phase" with Drusilla during their years together is not based on monogamy like we mean it. It is based on permission. And rape is what the fang four was enjoying doing, since it's what vampires do. Drusilla was raped by Angelus before getting killed, but once she becomes a vampire she doesn't hold that against him and she even has sex with him, because rape is not a shock anymore for her, it is something normal.

I've always theorised that the Angelus/Dru pairing had underlying issues hence why Spike blamed Angelus for sleeping with Dru but not Dru herself, but called Dru out when she cheated with the chaos demon. Spike doesn't consider it as Dru cheating with Angelus but likely sees it as Angelus taking advantage of Dru. Add in the fact that Dru was still sleeping with Spike when he was in a wheelchair whilst the "affair" with Angelus was going on, plus the possibility of vampire hierarchy (what the dominant vampire says goes) then the Angelus/ Dru relationship becomes very messed up. I think Dru sleeps with Angelus quite happily because Angelus has trained her to respond to him in that way hence why Dru is unfazed because she sees it as normal, that is how she's "supposed" to behave.

Exactly. Why is souled Spike uncomfortable and choking up over torture and killing? The whole point was that souled Spike didn't take responsibility for what he did without a soul (that is text). He wants Buffy to stake him at that point.

Because Spike has a soul and he feels great guilt over what he did. He's been murdering people whilst souled without knowing it and now he knows. Spike does take responsibility over his past actions, he feels guilt but acknowledges they were done when soulless and doesn't mope about it unlike Angel. Angel is consumed by guilt for his past actions. Spike wants Buffy to stake him, hence why he invokes Dawn's name, because it makes it more personal for Buffy. If he said "I used to torture teenage girls", they're just faceless victims. If he says "girls Dawn's age", suddenly those victims have Dawn's face. Spike is uncomfortable an choking up over torture and killing because of the depths contained in that torture and killing plus Dawn's face.

 

[zianna]

SPIKE
Guess I don't have to worry about that, 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...


Joss Whedon has stated that Angel and Spike had at least one sexual encounter.

So Spike WAS NOT FAITHFUL and that is CANON.

As far as the romantic version of a souless vampire that some people have, sorry but it is just ridiculous.
Spike loved to torture and RAPE IS A PHISICAL TORTURE.
End of story.

Spike, William the Bloody, Angelus, they were all raping but nobody got a rapist nickname.

 

[white avenger]

Imagine this scenario, he's got a girl Dawn's age, he's bitten her and drank from her but not enough to kill her. She's still alive and well aware that she's alone in a room with a monster. She's terrified. Spike then pulls out a railroad spike and sticks it through her leg. The girl screams from the pain. Spike then pulls the spike out and sticks it in again. He lets the girl know it's going to be a long night (the implication being he's going to be stabbing her with the spike all night). The girl is screaming for mercy and crying with pain as the railroad spike goes into her yet again, over and over, and not necessarily in the same place twice.. Spike is feeling pretty pleased with himself as the girl screams yet again because of the continuous impalement. The girl eventually begs him to kill her, wanting to die because she can't stand the pain, so Spike does exactly that, taking pleasure in the fact that he got someone to beg him to kill them (which he was going to do anyway) but he forced them to ask to die.

And people accuse ME of having an evil mind...

But, yeah, Spike was into the kill, and making a victim actually beg for death would be his style. When he tried to kill Willow in Season 4, his threat was, "You're gonna die. No doubt about that. What you get to decide is whether or not I bring you back," as in, turn Willow into a vampire. If he ever had a golden opportunity to rape some helpless, terrified girl (at least that's how he saw her) that would have been it, and he didn't even attempt it. Rape is about domination and humiliation as much, if not more, than physical torture, and it would seem to me that there would be much more thrill for the rapist if his victim were still fully conscious and strong enough to fight back, even if doing so would be less than futile. Someone barely conscious from blood loss wouldn't be able to do that.

Spike's threat to willow was death, and the possibility of becoming a monster like him, not rape.

Giles read out a passage about Spike that said he'd earned his name by "torturing his victims with railroad spikes".

Yeah, if rape had been part of Spike's M O, it's a pretty good bet that the Watchers would have had it fully documented, and Giles would have definitely warned Buffy about such a danger.

SPIKE
Guess I don't have to worry about that, 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...


Joss Whedon has stated that Angel and Spike had at least one sexual encounter.

So Spike WAS NOT FAITHFUL and that is CANON

"Except for that one..." doesn't necessarily imply mutual consent, and it would be perfectly within Angelus' character to rape Spike just to enforce his status as Alpha Male. Given that Angelus definitely IS a rapist, that would seem to be a more plausible scenario than Spike and Angelus having a quasi-romantic interlude when Dru and Darla not around.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

But, yeah, Spike was into the kill, and making a victim actually beg for death would be his style. When he tried to kill Willow in Season 4, his threat was, "You're gonna die. No doubt about that. What you get to decide is whether or not I bring you back," as in, turn Willow into a vampire. If he ever had a golden opportunity to rape some helpless, terrified girl (at least that's how he saw her) that would have been it, and he didn't even attempt it. Rape is about domination and humiliation as much, if not more, than physical torture, and it would seem to me that there would be much more thrill for the rapist if his victim were still fully conscious and strong enough to fight back, even if doing so would be less than futile. Someone barely conscious from blood loss wouldn't be able to do that.

Spike's threat to willow was death, and the possibility of becoming a monster like him, not rape.

Agreed. Also in "Lovers Walk", Spike makes a drunken pass at Willow (though there is evidence to suggest he was thinking more along the lines of drinking her blood/siring her) and Willow tells him no. She'd do his spell for him but there would be no "having of any kind". If Spike was a rapist, he would've done what he wanted regardless of what Willow said. He threatened to shove a glass bottle in her face, at no point did he threaten to rape her.

Yeah, if rape had been part of Spike's M O, it's a pretty good bet that the Watchers would have had it fully documented, and Giles would have definitely warned Buffy about such a danger.

Agreed. Also, since Spike was a villain in season 2, if rape was a part of Spike's past, then that would've been the time to reveal it because trope wise "rape is a special kind of evil". You don't just "reveal" that kind of thing about one of your good guys when you are trying to elicit sympathy from your audience unless you're going for the character being "evil all along". Since the writers were going for a redemption arc with Spike, having him be a rapist would go against that thematically. The AR was supposed to be Spike almost crossing the moral event horizon, if he'd raped before then he's already crossed that line and there's no coming back from that, he's already irredeemable..

"Except for that one..." doesn't necessarily imply mutual consent, and it would be perfectly within Angelus' character to rape Spike just to enforce his status as Alpha Male. Given that Angelus definitely IS a rapist, that would seem to be a more plausible scenario than Spike and Angelus having a quasi-romantic interlude when Dru and Darla not around.

I rewatched that scene because it doesn't make sense that Angel and Spike would suddenly get it on, especially after seeing their interactions in flashback and present day. From the delivery of that line, my interpretation is that Spike and Angel may have been under some kind of spell when that encounter happened, either that or an extremely drunken kiss possibly leading to second base but I don't think it ever went to actual sex. It's almost like saying Xander and Giles had a secret intimate encounter when Xander was helping Giles out at his house. It would come out of left field.

 

[zianna]

And people accuse ME of having an evil mind...

But, yeah, Spike was into the kill, and making a victim actually beg for death would be his style. When he tried to kill Willow in Season 4, his threat was, "You're gonna die. No doubt about that. What you get to decide is whether or not I bring you back," as in, turn Willow into a vampire. If he ever had a golden opportunity to rape some helpless, terrified girl (at least that's how he saw her) that would have been it, and he didn't even attempt it. Rape is about domination and humiliation as much, if not more, than physical torture, and it would seem to me that there would be much more thrill for the rapist if his victim were still fully conscious and strong enough to fight back, even if doing so would be less than futile. Someone barely conscious from blood loss wouldn't be able to do that.

Spike's threat to willow was death, and the possibility of becoming a monster like him, not rape.

And THAT particular scene and episode played as if as Spike had a sexual problem and couldn't get it hard.
And when Willow says that it is not her fault but hers, he replies that the previous year when he had her as hostage he was thinking sexually about her, right, you just managed to convince anyone but yourself and maybe DeadlyDuo as well..

Yeah, if rape had been part of Spike's M O, it's a pretty good bet that the Watchers would have had it fully documented, and Giles would have definitely warned Buffy about such a danger.

So, remind me again the episode in which Giles or any other Watcher specifically mentions that Angelus used to love raping his victims, warning Buffy about such a danger...

"Except for that one..." doesn't necessarily imply mutual consent, and it would be perfectly within Angelus' character to rape Spike just to enforce his status as Alpha Male. Given that Angelus definitely IS a rapist, that would seem to be a more plausible scenario than Spike and Angelus having a quasi-romantic interlude when Dru and Darla not around.

Hole in the World DVD commentaries, watch what Joss Whedon comments.

Agreed. Also in "Lovers Walk", Spike makes a drunken pass at Willow (though there is evidence to suggest he was thinking more along the lines of drinking her blood/siring her) and Willow tells him no. She'd do his spell for him but there would be no "having of any kind". If Spike was a rapist, he would've done what he wanted regardless of what Willow said. He threatened to shove a glass bottle in her face, at no point did he threaten to rape her.

And the following year this is EXACTLY what he admitted of having in his mind, sex with her.

Agreed. Also, since Spike was a villain in season 2, if rape was a part of Spike's past, then that would've been the time to reveal it because trope wise "rape is a special kind of evil". You don't just "reveal" that kind of thing about one of your good guys when you are trying to elicit sympathy from your audience unless you're going for the character being "evil all along". Since the writers were going for a redemption arc with Spike, having him be a rapist would go against that thematically. The AR was supposed to be Spike almost crossing the moral event horizon, if he'd raped before then he's already crossed that line and there's no coming back from that, he's already irredeemable..

And remind me again in which scene in S2 of BtVS or even S3 or S1 it was revealled that Angelus was a rapist. Since the writers actually gave Angel his own show for 5 years, don't you think they would have to elicit much more sympathy for a character with his own show, than for a character who had just a redemption arc?

I rewatched that scene because it doesn't make sense that Angel and Spike would suddenly get it on, especially after seeing their interactions in flashback and present day. From the delivery of that line, my interpretation is that Spike and Angel may have been under some kind of spell when that encounter happened, either that or an extremely drunken kiss possibly leading to second base but I don't think it ever went to actual sex. It's almost like saying Xander and Giles had a secret intimate encounter when Xander was helping Giles out at his house. It would come out of left field.

"Spike and Angel...they were hanging out for years and years and years. They were all kinds of DEVIANT. Are people thinking they never...? Come on, people! They're opened minded guys!"

Joss Whedon comments in the episode in which Spike so readily holds Angel's hand.

And again let me get this straight...

The vampire who is notorious for psychological pain and for killing everyone you love before you, gets blamed as a rapist. And we had absolutely no flashback or present time of Angelus raping anyone. He kills Jenny, no rape. He kills Buffy's classmate, the body has no signs or any kind of rape. He is a villain in S2 for more episodes than Spike (since he was handicapped and couldn't get out) but we never see him raping anyone or hearing of any rape or Giles warning Buffy and her teenage friends that Angelus' way is raping.

But the vampire who is notorious for physical pain, and IS the vampire who was actually shown on screen trying to RAPE someone, gets away with it as someone who has never ever raped anyone...

You people are so funny, I have really really missed all those ridiculous character bashing and false assumptions of the Buffyverse fandom!

 

[DeadlyDuo]

And THAT particular scene and episode played as if as Spike had a sexual problem and couldn't get it hard.
And when Willow says that it is not her fault but hers, he replies that the previous year when he had her as hostage he was thinking sexually about her, right, you just managed to convince anyone but yourself and maybe DeadlyDuo as well..

Whilst that scene may have played as a metaphor for impotence and the preceding actions could've been played as an attempted rape (Spike turning up the music and pinning Willow down), that was never the point of the scene. Spike wasn't intending to rape/have sex with Willow, he was intending to kill her and possibly sire her. Willow thought the issue was that she wasn't attractive enough to be considered "biteable" and Spike only settled for her because she was there. Spike reassured her that that wasn't true and he thought about biting her in Lovers' Walk.

So, remind me again the episode in which Giles or any other Watcher specifically mentions that Angelus used to love raping his victims, warning Buffy about such a danger...

Angelus only happened in the latter part of season 2 and was gone by the end. Giles did warn Buffy about Angelus (though I can't remember specifically what was said) but he did warn her that she wasn't dealing with Angel any more so she had to be careful.

And the following year this is EXACTLY what he admitted of having in his mind, sex with her.

Incorrect. He admitted that he thought about biting her at that time. Whilst that scene can be interpreted as a drunken pass, there is evidence to suggest that Spike was thinking about biting Willow. His "I haven't had a woman in weeks, unless you count that shop keeper" line, he killed the shop keeper. His "that scent....your neck" line. Where do vampires mostly bite their victims? On the neck. Also, if Spike was thinking of raping Willow, why would it make any difference if she said no? If Spike had wanted to rape her, her saying no wouldn't have stopped him.

Just because a scene LOOKS LIKE something doesn't mean it IS about that thing.

And remind me again in which scene in S2 of BtVS or even S3 or S1 it was revealled that Angelus was a rapist. Since the writers actually gave Angel his own show for 5 years, don't you think they would have to elicit much more sympathy for a character with his own show, than for a character who had just a redemption arc?

Angelus and Angel were played as completely separate characters inhabiting the same body. There was no mistaking who had a soul and who didn't. Spike never got that distinction because he did not have a complete attitude overhaul between his soulless and souled self, therefore where did soulless Spike stop and souled Spike begin? (in terms of place them in a room, are you speaking to souled Spike or soulless Spike. You know when your talking to Angelus or Angel).

"Spike and Angel...they were hanging out for years and years and years. They were all kinds of DEVIANT. Are people thinking they never...? Come on, people! They're opened minded guys!"

Joss Whedon comments in the episode in which Spike so readily holds Angel's hand.

Spike only held Angel's hand because I think Angel was passing him one half of a wire (been a while since I watched the episode but Angel was passing him something and the handholding was so it wasn't obvious). They weren't holding hands for the sheer fun of it.

So Joss is implying that Spike and Angel engaged in a homosexual encounter because they were "all kind of deviant"? Not exactly a positive comment. "They're open minded guys" funny how they weren't portrayed that way on Buffy. There wasn't a hint of a past sexual encounter outside that line in "Power play" or the commentary for the hand holding scene.

And again let me get this straight...

The vampire who is notorious for psychological pain and for killing everyone you love before you, gets blamed as a rapist. And we had absolutely no flashback or present time of Angelus raping anyone. He kills Jenny, no rape. He kills Buffy's classmate, the body has no signs or any kind of rape. He is a villain in S2 for more episodes than Spike (since he was handicapped and couldn't get out) but we never see him raping anyone or hearing of any rape or Giles warning Buffy and her teenage friends that Angelus' way is raping.

Incorrect. Whilst we didn't see Angelus mid-rape, it was all but shown onscreen that he was going to rape the gypsy girl. In the "Girl in Question", Spike walked in and thought Angelus was raping the bride before it was revealed to be Drusilla, Angelus had offered Spike the bride but Spike turned him down in favour of spending time with Drusilla. It was also hinted that Angelus did unpleasant things to Holtz's family as well which may have included rape. Angelus and Angel are distinctive from each other (to the point where Angelus is the Hyde to Angel's Jekyll). Angel is shown having no control over his soulless actions whereas Spike is shown to have control over his because he doesn't have that split personality angle going on.

How you portray a character is important to how the audience perceives them. Angel/Angelus are presented as Good/Evil respectively. Spike is portrayed the same regardless of if he has a soul or not.

But the vampire who is notorious for physical pain, and IS the vampire who was actually shown on screen trying to RAPE someone, gets away with it as someone who has never ever raped anyone...

See above. Spike does not have that soulless/souled distinction that Angelus gets, and he also doesn't get scenes where it's obvious that rape is going to happen. In fact, he gets a scene that shows him turning down the chance to rape someone. All those factor together to give the impression that Spike was NOT a rapist whereas Angelus WAS a rapist.

"Show, don't tell" is an important narrative function eg It's all very well TELLING the audience that Buffy is a kickass vampire slayer but you have to back that up by SHOWING the audience that she can do that. They never showed the audience that Spike was a rapist and they never told the audience that Spike was a rapist, in fact Spike turning down the bride kind of shows that he was NOT a rapist. Outside of one very highly ambiguous line (which can be interpreted either way depending on your viewpoint), there is no suggestion whatsoever that Spike was a rapist. With Angelus, whilst they didn't show the rapes, they showed enough to suggest what was happening.

Also in regard to Spike and Angel's "intimate" encounter, the audience weren't SHOWN anything about this encounter, they were TOLD that Angel and Spike were "intimate" one time but not to what degree eg a kiss is "intimate" but so is full on sex and everything between the two. Joss never actually says they had sex . Joss says "Are people thinking they never...? Come on, people! They're opened minded guys!" Never what? Kissed? Had sex? Wanked each other off? Perhaps Joss should've finished his sentence instead of leaving it hanging. Also, if Joss wanted that to be an aspect of Angel and Spike's past, then maybe they should've taken the time to show that part rather than just throwing it in from left field. The fact that Joss also feels he has to clarify what was meant by that line (even though he didn't really clarify more than SOMETHING happened instead of going into detail) outside of the show suggests that it was never clear IN-Show. Now this could be because of either shoddy writing, or the writers deliberately wanted to leave it open for the audience to decide what this "intimate" encounter was and how it came about. If it's the latter, then really nobody is wrong because it's up to each individual on how they interpret that line. In my opinion Angel and Spike never had sex, you might think they did. Neither of us is wrong.

You people are so funny, I have really really missed all those ridiculous character bashing and false assumptions of the Buffyverse fandom!

Everyone has their own opinion which they are entitled. It doesn't make one right over the other. You think Spike raped in the past, fine, that's your prerogative. However, @white avenger and I don't share your view. We've given our reasons why we think differently, whether you agree or not is irrelevant because neither of us is wrong, we just interpret the lines different ways.

 

[zianna]

Whilst that scene may have played as a metaphor for impotence and the preceding actions could've been played as an attempted rape (Spike turning up the music and pinning Willow down), that was never the point of the scene. Spike wasn't intending to rape/have sex with Willow, he was intending to kill her and possibly sire her. Willow thought the issue was that she wasn't attractive enough to be considered "biteable" and Spike only settled for her because she was there. Spike reassured her that that wasn't true and he thought about biting her in Lovers' Walk.

And you know that exactly HOW?
The scene played EXACTLY as an attempted rape possibly following by a murder.
It's called snuff porn, if you've never heard of it, look it up.
It's exactly how snuff porn is done.
EXACTLY.

Angelus only happened in the latter part of season 2 and was gone by the end. Giles did warn Buffy about Angelus (though I can't remember specifically what was said) but he did warn her that she wasn't dealing with Angel any more so she had to be careful.

And then again he NEVER warned her that Angelus was raping, although the previous "argument" was that the Watchers should have had records of Spike raping and they should have warned Spike if that was the case.
Totally ridiculous argument.

Incorrect. He admitted that he thought about biting her at that time. Whilst that scene can be interpreted as a drunken pass, there is evidence to suggest that Spike was thinking about biting Willow. His "I haven't had a woman in weeks, unless you count that shop keeper" line, he killed the shop keeper. His "that scent....your neck" line. Where do vampires mostly bite their victims? On the neck. Also, if Spike was thinking of raping Willow, why would it make any difference if she said no? If Spike had wanted to rape her, her saying no wouldn't have stopped him.

Just because a scene LOOKS LIKE something doesn't mean it IS about that thing.

And I am sure than when Willow said

• 
  Willow : I know I'm not the kind of girl vamps like to sink their teeth into. It's always like, "ooh, you're like a sister to me," or, "oh, you're such a good friend."
  

she was talking about all those vampires she was hanging out and not about Oz who had dumped her and about those people in the party and the fact that nobody was paying attention to her and thought of her as a geek and just a friend, nothing more.

Angelus and Angel were played as completely separate characters inhabiting the same body. There was no mistaking who had a soul and who didn't. Spike never got that distinction because he did not have a complete attitude overhaul between his soulless and souled self, therefore where did soulless Spike stop and souled Spike begin? (in terms of place them in a room, are you speaking to souled Spike or soulless Spike. You know when your talking to Angelus or Angel).

So since Angel and Angelus were played as "completely different characters" why didn't they actually show Angwlus raping but they had only implications?
Huh?

Spike only held Angel's hand because I think Angel was passing him one half of a wire (been a while since I watched the episode but Angel was passing him something and the handholding was so it wasn't obvious). They weren't holding hands for the sheer fun of it.

So Joss is implying that Spike and Angel engaged in a homosexual encounter because they were "all kind of deviant"? Not exactly a positive comment. "They're open minded guys" funny how they weren't portrayed that way on Buffy. There wasn't a hint of a past sexual encounter outside that line in "Power play" or the commentary for the hand holding scene.

ANGELUS
Don't mistake me. I do love the ladies. It's just lately... I've been wondering...
(holds his own fist in the beam of sunlight)
what it'd be like...
(watches his hand sizzle)
to share the slaughter of innocents... with another man.
(turns his hand over so the palm is in the light now; looks admiringly at it as it smokes)
Don't... don't think that makes me some kind of a DEVIANT, hmm?
(pulls his hand back close to his face)
Do you?

Staring at Angelus, William sticks his own hand in the light�voluntarily this time)

You are not the arbeiter of canon, Joss Whedon is.
That scene is a total homosexual one and Spike agreed voluntarily.
Also. last Gleaming, written by Joss, again CONFIRMED Angel and Spike kissing.
Spike, is CANON, that he was NOT faithful to Drusilla.

Incorrect. Whilst we didn't see Angelus mid-rape, it was all but shown onscreen that he was going to rape the gypsy girl.

Just a bite on the thigh, on the artery there which could have killed her.
NO RAPE SHOWN.

In the "Girl in Question", Spike walked in and thought Angelus was raping the bride before it was revealed to be Drusilla, Angelus had offered Spike the bride but Spike turned him down in favour of spending time with Drusilla.

Again, NO RAPE, just voluntary sex with Drusilla.

It was also hinted that Angelus did unpleasant things to Holtz's family as well which may have included rape.

Third time, HINTED, NO RAPE SHOWN OR TOLD.

Angelus and Angel are distinctive from each other (to the point where Angelus is the Hyde to Angel's Jekyll). Angel is shown having no control over his soulless actions whereas Spike is shown to have control over his because he doesn't have that split personality angle going on.

Read the comics, which are CANON, there are times Spike is having difficulty controlling his demon, sometimes even losing it. Which also happened in the latest comic this month.

How you portray a character is important to how the audience perceives them. Angel/Angelus are presented as Good/Evil respectively. Spike is portrayed the same regardless of if he has a soul or not.

If Spike was portrayed as the same, there was no need for the demon trials and they would have left him just chipped. They didn't.

See above. Spike does not have that soulless/souled distinction that Angelus gets, and he also doesn't get scenes where it's obvious that rape is going to happen. In fact, he gets a scene that shows him turning down the chance to rape someone. All those factor together to give the impression that Spike was NOT a rapist whereas Angelus WAS a rapist.

Again continuing with the ridiculous "arguments" and double standards.

"Show, don't tell" is an important narrative function eg It's all very well TELLING the audience that Buffy is a kickass vampire slayer but you have to back that up by SHOWING the audience that she can do that. They never showed the audience that Spike was a rapist and they never told the audience that Spike was a rapist, in fact Spike turning down the bride kind of shows that he was NOT a rapist. Outside of one very highly ambiguous line (which can be interpreted either way depending on your viewpoint), there is no suggestion whatsoever that Spike was a rapist. With Angelus, whilst they didn't show the rapes, they showed enough to suggest what was happening.

Double standards, have your cake and eat it too.
They never showed Angel raping, they never told the audience Angel was a rapist, in fact that bride was not alive and screaming for all we know Spike doesn't like necrophilia lol that is what that scene proves.
Not only the very meaningful scene between him and Buffy in S7 but also the ATTEMPTED RAPE prove that Spike was yes, A RAPIST.
They showed ENOU TO SUGGEST HE WAS RAPING, AND THEY ALSO GAVE US THE ACTION TO PROVE IT.

Also in regard to Spike and Angel's "intimate" encounter, the audience weren't SHOWN anything about this encounter, they were TOLD that Angel and Spike were "intimate" one time but not to what degree eg a kiss is "intimate" but so is full on sex and everything between the two. Joss never actually says they had sex . Joss says "Are people thinking they never...? Come on, people! They're opened minded guys!" Never what? Kissed? Had sex? Wanked each other off? Perhaps Joss should've finished his sentence instead of leaving it hanging. Also, if Joss wanted that to be an aspect of Angel and Spike's past, then maybe they should've taken the time to show that part rather than just throwing it in from left field. The fact that Joss also feels he has to clarify what was meant by that line (even though he didn't really clarify more than SOMETHING happened instead of going into detail) outside of the show suggests that it was never clear IN-Show. Now this could be because of either shoddy writing, or the writers deliberately wanted to leave it open for the audience to decide what this "intimate" encounter was and how it came about. If it's the latter, then really nobody is wrong because it's up to each individual on how they interpret that line. In my opinion Angel and Spike never had sex, you might think they did. Neither of us is wrong.

Sorry, you busted yourself.
Joss comments in a different episode, Hole in the world.
Spike's comment between him and Angel happened in a totally different episode.
And yes, it is cannon, they had sex no matter what you want to believe.

Everyone has their own opinion which they are entitled. It doesn't make one right over the other. You think Spike raped in the past, fine, that's your prerogative. However, @white avenger and I don't share your view. We've given our reasons why we think differently, whether you agree or not is irrelevant because neither of us is wrong, we just interpret the lines different ways.

Of course everyone has their opinion. The reason why we have 3.000 different religions and who knows how many more forgotten. That though doesn't take away my right to laugh at every ridiculous "argument" and every double standard.

If something was implied for Angel, and the same thing was also implied for Spike that means either BOTH DID IT, or NONE.
End of story.
Anything else is just in the sphere of fantasy and personal wishing, covered with double standards and ridiculous "arguments".

 

[Guy]

Yeah, if rape had been part of Spike's M O, it's a pretty good bet that the Watchers would have had it fully documented, and Giles would have definitely warned Buffy about such a danger.

Considering the fact that the WB had a very strict censorship policy in the early seasons, I doubt that they would let Joss show a scene in which Giles says "Spike used to rape people". It's much more likely that Giles just decided not to mention it (because it would be "unseemly" or whatever), or that he DID say that, but in a scene that we never saw. You know, like that scene in which Willow stripped vamp-Willow naked and wore her clothes, which totally happened, but we never saw it.

"Except for that one..." doesn't necessarily imply mutual consent, and it would be perfectly within Angelus' character to rape Spike just to enforce his status as Alpha Male.

 

[zianna]

Considering the fact that the WB had a very strict censorship policy in the early seasons, I doubt that they would let Joss show a scene in which Giles says "Spike used to rape people". It's much more likely that Giles just decided not to mention it (because it would be "unseemly" or whatever), or that he DID say that, but in a scene that we never saw. You know, like that scene in which Willow stripped vamp-Willow naked and wore her clothes, which totally happened, but we never saw it.

It is also heavily implied that Drusilla had a fetish for little children.
We see her playing with dolls and once she goes after a child only to be saved by Angel.
I read once that maybe she was raping children or even having Spike doing it while she was watching.
Of course that was never shown or even implied (Spike raping children for the pleasure of Drusilla), I just mention it. But her fetish for children is heavily implied.

About Spike and Angel again, it is not just implied, it is confirmed when Angelus talks about raping Fred to death and when Spike describes what he used to do to girls Dawn's age.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

@zianna We are just going to have to agree to disagree. You think your way, I'll think mine. I've given my reasons for why I think the way I do, you don't agree, fine, but don't belittle my opinion just because it doesn't match yours. I don't belittle yours so it would be nice if you exchanged me the same courtesy.