"If they hurt Willow, I'll kill you."

[Tome]

I personally think that he was right to say that to Buffy at the time. She was acting stupidly, and it put her friends in danger. Obviously, Xander wouldn't have killed Buffy(not like he could lol), but just saying that was pretty awesome. Someone close to Buffy had to come out and say something to her.

 

[brinkster130]

Im not a big fan of Xander but this line never made he dislike him anymore. I thought it was totally understandable for him to react that way. That line it did make me laugh a little.

 

[BuffyElevated]

me too. I use to LOL at that line. He's talking to the Slayer, after all. 'You wish' is my reply to that line every time. Partly I do understand his anger here, but still it sounds laughable and misplaced. Therefore, this scene doesn't make me particularly hate Xander. He's done and said much worse.

I don't think it's "laughable" or "misplaced". Of course we all know he couldn't really physically hurt Buffy (not without a weapon, anyway); so did he. It was the point he was trying to make. His love for Willow and the strength of their friendship was what he cared most about, and he was making that point to Buffy, basically to tell her that whatever she was going through in her mind to make her think she had a right to act the way she'd been acting was not relevant; saving the people they cared about was.

zobothehobo agrees: I'll be honest, the speech to Dawn is cute but sometimes if I'm in the right mood, I get annoyed when I hear it and want to punch him in his face.

Why in the world would his speech to Dawn make you want to punch him??? Seriously???

 

[WakingNightmare]

I love Xander here. I genuinely don't understand how anyone can get angry at him for this. He's already lost Jesse and now Willow, his best friend, is in danger again, and this time it looks like they won't be able to save her. Buffy was acting like a stupid bitca and I cheered Xander on for calling her out on it. It's such a wonderful Xander moment. Buffy's not been treating him[/I ] so well either and Xander puts that aside for his friend. Buffy needs to hear the truth, and that's where Xander steps in. He's not afraid to criticize her when it's needed. Cordelia's speech is brilliant too. My one true ambition in life is to use the words "Spank your inner moppet" in a conversation one day 😀

 

[zobothehobo]

Opinions on Xander: I hate him. I have always hated him. Now of course, there are things I do like... namely The Zeppo. When I first saw that episode I was so angry at the Scoobies for the way they treated him. And I was SO routing for him. Which is why I was a little irked he didn't tell them what went down but I think the message was supposed to be he proved it to himself so he didn't have to blah blah blah.

But anyway, yeah, I always hated Xander. From his annoying little crush on Buffy.. to his leaving Anya at the alter (BTW, Xander leaving Anya at the alter was NOT OOC. I mean since when is it OOC for Xander to act like a little man-child? Answer: it's not). I think what I hate most about him though is that he always has to have an opinion on everything and then yell it a people... no matter how misinformed his opinion is. He's a man-child. He never grows up. That pisses me off. And he's judgmental about everything his friends do.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Opinions on Xander: I hate him. I have always hated him. Now of course, there are things I do like... namely The Zeppo. When I first saw that episode I was so angry at the Scoobies for the way they treated him. And I was SO routing for him. Which is why I was a little irked he didn't tell them what went down but I think the message was supposed to be he proved it to himself so he didn't have to blah blah blah.

But anyway, yeah, I always hated Xander. From his annoying little crush on Buffy.. to his leaving Anya at the alter (BTW, Xander leaving Anya at the alter was NOT OOC. I mean since when is it OOC for Xander to act like a little man-child? Answer: it's not). I think what I hate most about him though is that he always has to have an opinion on everything and then yell it a people... no matter how misinformed his opinion is. He's a man-child. He never grows up. That pisses me off. And he's judgmental about everything his friends do.

*sigh*
Attempt at defending Xander #3,002,147........ Here goes.
Sorry, but saying that Xander never grows up is totally NOT true. Xander definitely matured over the course of the show, and there are many instances where we see this. Yes, it's true that Xander can be very selfish and bratty but so can ALL the characters on the show. Xander's sense of humor is very sarcastic and goofy, which I personally find very refreshing in a show that would take itself a little too seriously otherwise. Just because he's silly at times doesn't mean he is not mature. In the earlier seasons of the show (1-3), they were high school students, so for Xander to be bashed for being immature or childish in those seasons is pretty ludicrous because they were all still kids. They weren't adults, and people seem to forget about that. In Season 4-7, Xander was more mature than any of the other Scoobies because he was out in the working, adult world, and trying to have his first adult relationship with Anya (who could be much more childish than he could at times, whether people want to admit it or not). Look at the insight he showed in his talks with Buffy in Seasons 4 and 5, and look at how he refused to turn his back on Willow after she went evil. That is a sign of maturity; being able to look past the bad things someone's done to see to the heart of them.
It REALLY gets under my skin when people say that Xander leaving Anya at the altar was "childish", and I notice that it's mostly younger unmarried people who say that. Sorry, but if you're already having doubts about marrying someone, it's more mature NOT to go through with the wedding than to try to make a relationship work when you don't know for sure that it can. Also?? It wasn't like he left and NEVER came back, either. He left for a few minutes to clear his head, then came back to tell Anya that he couldn't go through with it. He was MATURE enough to come back to face her, even though he knew what he was about to do was going to crush both him and Anya.

 

[zobothehobo]

*sigh*
Attempt at defending Xander #3,002,147........ Here goes.
Sorry, but saying that Xander never grows up is totally NOT true. Xander definitely matured over the course of the show, and there are many instances where we see this. Yes, it's true that Xander can be very selfish and bratty but so can ALL the characters on the show. Xander's sense of humor is very sarcastic and goofy, which I personally find very refreshing in a show that would take itself a little too seriously otherwise. Just because he's silly at times doesn't mean he is not mature. In the earlier seasons of the show (1-3), they were high school students, so for Xander to be bashed for being immature or childish in those seasons is pretty ludicrous because they were all still kids. They weren't adults, and people seem to forget about that. In Season 4-7, Xander was more mature than any of the other Scoobies because he was out in the working, adult world, and trying to have his first adult relationship with Anya (who could be much more childish than he could at times, whether people want to admit it or not). Look at the insight he showed in his talks with Buffy in Seasons 4 and 5, and look at how he refused to turn his back on Willow after she went evil. That is a sign of maturity; being able to look past the bad things someone's done to see to the heart of them.
It REALLY gets under my skin when people say that Xander leaving Anya at the altar was "childish", and I notice that it's mostly younger unmarried people who say that. Sorry, but if you're already having doubts about marrying someone, it's more mature NOT to go through with the wedding than to try to make a relationship work when you don't know for sure that it can. Also?? It wasn't like he left and NEVER came back, either. He left for a few minutes to clear his head, then came back to tell Anya that he couldn't go through with it. He was MATURE enough to come back to face her, even though he knew what he was about to do was going to crush both him and Anya.

I understand and actually agree with most if not all of this. But I have an irrational dislike for Xander. I know it's irrational. And I know that it's probably because the things I dislike in Xander, I possess myself. Xander has all of the traits of me I hate. So my hate for him is irrational because I've dealt with these traits in myself for years...

I do agree though with the leaving Anya at the alter thing. I put that in there because it was a moment I disliked in general... but I don't think Xander was too far in the wrong. He shouldn't have proposed to her that early... but stopping the wedding was not the mistake he made. That was actually kind of responsible.

 

[Icarium]

I wonder if people hate Buffy for saying "And I'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn" in The Gift. Because it's very, very similar.

No, it's not. Buffy's actions are orders of magnitude worse than Xander's.

But they also were often misplaced and based on a lesser knowledge... It's something I dislike in some people's behaviour in real life too. Those ones who constantly feel the urge to comment on things they have no idea about. Xander was often just like that. I'm not saying he was always wrong, but mostly I felt like his judgment wasn't necessary. Nobody has ever complained about his relationship with Anya. She was always welcomed to the scoobies even after the fight against Buffy. Why do you think is that? Because unlike Xander, the others were able to forgive and give second chances, let someone improve themselves to them. Because none of them were perfect, not Angel, not Spike, not Buffy, not Willow, [the list goes on], everyone of them made bad choices and did questionable things. Still, it was possible for them to look past that, besides Xander of course.

Yes, Xander never gave nobody a second chance. Oh, wait:

- "Angel's our friend. Except I don't like him"
- Helping Buffy help Angel in Amends.
- sheltering Spike into his home in S4 and then again in S7
- saving Willow in Grave and never holding her wicca rampage against her, etc

I think what I hate most about him though is that he always has to have an opinion on everything and then yell it a people...

You are a fan of Spike, right? Pot, kettle anyone?

 

[BananaBuffy]

It's not often that I hate Xander, only in times where he's really, majorly frusterating but I honestly don't see how this could be a line that could make people hate him. Why shouldn't he say this? When saying this he is proving his love for Willow above his love for Buffy even though he's apparently 'in love' with Buffy. But he's proving that he cares about his best friends more than a little fantasy. He has every right to be saying this stuff to Buffy because it is her fault. And this isn't showing a bad aspect of his character. In all truths, it's showing us one of his best qualities which is his love. How you could hate him for doing, showing and saying this is totally beyond me.

 

[caitaintdead]

*sigh*
Attempt at defending Xander #3,002,147........ Here goes.
Sorry, but saying that Xander never grows up is totally NOT true. Xander definitely matured over the course of the show, and there are many instances where we see this. Yes, it's true that Xander can be very selfish and bratty but so can ALL the characters on the show. Xander's sense of humor is very sarcastic and goofy, which I personally find very refreshing in a show that would take itself a little too seriously otherwise.

Okay, I feel the need to point out that AtS is much darker and it takes itself much more seriously then BtVS does. AtS on the other hand does not have any lame joke sidekicks that are purely there to do nothing but tell really bad jokes at inappropriate moments.

Just because he's silly at times doesn't mean he is not mature. In the earlier seasons of the show (1-3), they were high school students, so for Xander to be bashed for being immature or childish in those seasons is pretty ludicrous because they were all still kids. They weren't adults, and people seem to forget about that.

Yes, they were high school students. It does not change the fact that his behaviour was largely inexcusable throughout most of his time there. I'm fairly certain that if you saw a 17 year old boy acting incredibly homophobic, racist, or sexist you would still believe that he was liable to take responsibility for his behaviour.

Those older teenage boy years show so much about what it is to be a man, and to me they sum Xander up. I understand that he lacked confidence due to a distressing home life, but he was also presented with a strong male figure to look up to, yet refused. This makes me feel like Xander was not interested in maturing, but interested in staying stagnant.

In Season 4-7, Xander was more mature than any of the other Scoobies because he was out in the working, adult world, and trying to have his first adult relationship with Anya (who could be much more childish than he could at times, whether people want to admit it or not).

I think it's quite brave to use Season 4 Xander as an example of how mature he is! I find it quite funny that you will argue that because he working rather than going to university that it makes him more adult! For starters, the reason he was working rather than at college was because he wasn't intelligent enough to actually go. Also, he was hardly a hard working guy with a good set of work ethics. The joke all through the season was that he was getting fired all the time. Basically - he didn't even have the maturity level to hold down a job that 14 year olds can manage.

Also, while Anya could very easily be childish it was a different type of childish to Xander. I don't really like using the word 'childish' in general to describe adults because there are so many different ways that children act.

It REALLY gets under my skin when people say that Xander leaving Anya at the altar was "childish", and I notice that it's mostly younger unmarried people who say that. Sorry, but if you're already having doubts about marrying someone, it's more mature NOT to go through with the wedding than to try to make a relationship work when you don't know for sure that it can. Also?? It wasn't like he left and NEVER came back, either. He left for a few minutes to clear his head, then came back to tell Anya that he couldn't go through with it. He was MATURE enough to come back to face her, even though he knew what he was about to do was going to crush both him and Anya.

I am unmarried, yes. I likely have more insight on this particular topic then a lot of people around here though right now. I was engaged for those of you who don't know. We were together for almost 4 years, and I had started planning a wedding for October next year. It was going to amazing, good food, good company, good music. A perfect way to show my commitment to my best friend, and love of my life.

As most of you have heard though - just before I was about to buy my wedding dress, the douchebag walked out on me. He packed his bags and he before I knew it he was gone.

Sorry?! What was that? He made the decision BEFORE the day of the wedding? Well how about that then.

It is simply completely disgusting to leave someone at the altar. Not only is it completely heartbreaking for the person, but utterly humiliating. There is no way that anyone can say that Xander didn't have doubts previous to the actual wedding day. We are shown in many episodes previous that he is uncertain about marriage. The mature thing to do would be to discuss it with Anya, instead of watching her get excited only to let her down at the actual wedding.

Okay, so I did promise myself that I wasn't going to get to involved in Xander bashing in this thread, especially since I started so well by sticking up for him. I understand that some people really love the guy, and I respect that, but I had to give my two cents worth. Also, I'm going to start saving all my Xander rants in word documents - I've done way to many of these over the years!

 

[Kean]

I have my issues with Xander but I have no issue with this, in fact, I think he was being the consummate friend, to both Buffy and Willow, in that scene.

When you are being an arse it is your best friends that sometimes need to say things like that to you, to wake you up. Which, BTW, that's exactly what happened with Buffy. Buffy needed to hear what Xander was saying. She was so traumatised by her death that she had pushed ever single person close to her away, albeit in an effort to protect them from her and her life. Xander was letting her know that her plan wasn't working, in fact it achieved the exact opposite of Buffy's intentions, and now she had to wake up and get back in the game.

Secondly, he was demonstrating how strongly he felt for Willow. If it was me, and my best friend was in danger? Quite frankly, I would go through anyone who got in my way in helping her.

I know I have said some variation of that line before. And I'd do it again in a heart beat if it meant it helped or protected my friends.

Buffy and Willow were lucky to have a friend like Xander that night.

 

[Ms.Trick]

I don't hate Xander. I love Buffy.
I wasn't mad at Xander for saying this. Buffy kind of needed to be put back at her place. I mean, she obviously realized that she had messed up, but the whole episode she was being awful. So I understand that Xander said that. I felt like it was a kind of "We taken it so far but now we've had it, things have been going out of control partly because of you, wether you like it or not".

(And it's a bit off-topic but I absolutely love when Buffy had killed all the vampires and Willow says "It's over" and Xander says "No, it isn't", looking at Buffy.)

The debate about that line reminds me of the debate about his "Kick his ass line". I totally get why Xander said that, even tough on the first watch I thought "HEY! That's just not what she said!".

 

[Icarium]

The joke all through the season was that he was getting fired all the time. Basically - he didn't even have the maturity level to hold down a job that 14 year olds can manage.

Of course, he did well enough to get promoted by early season five but why bother with inconvenient facts? And maybe Buffy is an immature loser too then since she had to flip burgers for a living...

Yes, they were high school students. It does not change the fact that his behaviour was largely inexcusable throughout most of his time there. I'm fairly certain that if you saw a 17 year old boy acting incredibly homophobic, racist, or sexist you would still believe that he was liable to take responsibility for his behaviour.

Fact? You wish. And are you just throwing these words out there for effect or you actually think Xander is racist, sexist or homophobic?

Those older teenage boy years show so much about what it is to be a man, and to me they sum Xander up. I understand that he lacked confidence due to a distressing home life, but he was also presented with a strong male figure to look up to, yet refused. This makes me feel like Xander was not interested in maturing, but interested in staying stagnant.

He refused? I presume you mean Giles as the strong male figure. When has Giles ever tried to be a presence in Xander's life, apart from demon slaying?

For starters, the reason he was working rather than at college was because he wasn't intelligent enough to actually go.

There was also a certain lack of, you know, money. And not everyone who doesn't go to college is "not intelligent enough". Xander isn't the bookish type, that doesn't make him stupid. Cordelia couldn't go to college, is she "not intelligent enough" too?

Okay, I feel the need to point out that AtS is much darker and it takes itself much more seriously then BtVS does. AtS on the other hand does not have any lame joke sidekicks that are purely there to do nothing but tell really bad jokes at inappropriate moments.

I know, I know. This Andrew fellow. Annoying, is 't he? Wait, you meant Xander? You might want to rewatch The Harvest, Prophecy Girl, Killed By Death, Go Fish, What's My Line, Becoming, Halloween, The Zeppo, Where the Wild Things Are, Primeval, Grave among other episodes. Yes, in later seasons Xander was mostly a wallpaper but then again you can say that about everyone not named Buffy, Willow or Spike (in S7 you can also safely remove Willow from the list too).

There is no way that anyone can say that Xander didn't have doubts previous to the actual wedding day. We are shown in many episodes previous that he is uncertain about marriage. The mature thing to do would be to discuss it with Anya, instead of watching her get excited only to let her down at the actual wedding.

Yes, because Anya was so willing to engage in such discussions. Not.

 

[caitaintdead]

Of course, he did well enough to get promoted by early season five but why bother with inconvenient facts? And maybe Buffy is an immature loser too then since she had to flip burgers for a living...

I'm guessing that probably work in one of these horrible jobs and I've offended you? I don't really understand why you're using Buffy working at Double Meat Palace as a comparison to Xander's job problems? We are definitely shown that he is not very good at many of the jobs he actually does manage to get.

Fact? You wish. And are you just throwing these words out there for effect or you actually think Xander is racist, sexist or homophobic?

Fact to me yes, because lying and manipulated is not acceptable in my eyes.

And yes, the words were there for effect. I thought that it was pretty clear that they were there for effect, but I guess not...

He refused? I presume you mean Giles as the strong male figure. When has Giles ever tried to be a presence in Xander's life, apart from demon slaying?

Yes I meant Giles. I think it's fair to say that Xander spent more time with Giles then his own father. Giles definitely looked out for Xander, and despite the fact that Giles found Xander annoying most of the time, he definitely would have stepped up to teach Xander more about life.

Also, having a good male figure in his life didn't mean that he needed a father. It can be just as much about purely seeing the way a good man lives his life.

There was also a certain lack of, you know, money. And not everyone who doesn't go to college is "not intelligent enough". Xander isn't the bookish type, that doesn't make him stupid. Cordelia couldn't go to college, is she "not intelligent enough" too?

I do forget that in America that poor people often can't get into college cause of the money thing, so I'll give you that... Partly.

People can be intelligent and not go to college, I absolutely agree. Can you find me a quote where I said 'everyone who doesn't go to college is "not intelligent enough". I'm fairly certain I have once again just touched a raw nerve here, because that is simply making things up that I haven't said!

Xander isn't the bookish type, I agree.

Also, I never said he was stupid.

Cordelia couldn't go to college cause her dad lost all their money, that's correct. I don't know how intelligent Cordelia is. I still feel like we get many different indications of intelligence level, sometimes she's written as intelligent, sometimes she comes out with incredibly bimbo moment! That is definitely getting this thread WAAAY off topic though! I think there was a discussion about it somewhere - shall I try and find you the thread?

I know, I know. This Andrew fellow. Annoying, is 't he? Wait, you meant Xander? You might want to rewatch The Harvest, Prophecy Girl, Killed By Death, Go Fish, What's My Line, Becoming, Halloween, The Zeppo, Where the Wild Things Are, Primeval, Grave among other episodes. Yes, in later seasons Xander was mostly a wallpaper but then again you can say that about everyone not named Buffy, Willow or Spike (in S7 you can also safely remove Willow from the list too).

Sorry, why do I need to rewatch those episodes? I don't get it. And I definitely agree about Season 7 neglecting many excellent characters and focusing to largely on other things, but once again, we're getting very off topic.

Yes, because Anya was so willing to engage in such discussions. Not.

Anya was willing to discuss it. She wants to discuss it in As You Were and Xander insists that although he is afraid of the wedding day itself he very much wanted to marry her.

Okay, I'm pretty much going to end that there. The Xander topic makes people really upset. I assume it's because a lot of you see your geeky goofy side in him. Can you all please try to remember that I am not personally attacking you, I am discussing a fictional character!

 

[Icarium]

I don't really understand why you're using Buffy working at Double Meat Palace as a comparison to Xander's job problems? We are definitely shown that he is not very good at many of the jobs he actually does manage to get.

Because Buffy's S6 arc is quite similar to Xander's S4 arc, only with 895454854% more angst and naked demonic lover. If Xander isn't "mature enough" to get a half-decent job immediately when he needed one, then I guess Buffy isn't good enough, either, if we are to follow your line of reasoning. The whole point is that they were in a funk, depressed, not themselves, yadda, yadda.

Fact to me yes, because lying and manipulated is not acceptable in my eyes.

Xander was lying and manipulating people all the time back in high school? Damn, he is machiavelian indeed, isn't he?

Yes I meant Giles. I think it's fair to say that Xander spent more time with Giles then his own father.

I really don't think so, unless Xander's dad was never home. It's not as if the gang deals with demons every day.

Sorry, why do I need to rewatch those episodes?

Because Xander wasn't just comic relief in them but a vital part of the main plot and was the one who either helped a lot or was even essential in saving the day. You claimed he was purely there "to do nothing but tell really bad jokes at inappropriate moments.". This is demonstrably false, hence my examples.

Anya was willing to discuss it.

Anya's way of discussing anything is "my way or the highway". See The Replacement or Triangle or Where The Wild Things are.

People can be intelligent and not go to college, I absolutely agree. Can you find me a quote where I said 'everyone who doesn't go to college is "not intelligent enough". I'm fairly certain I have once again just touched a raw nerve here, because that is simply making things up that I haven't said!

Well, you ignored all the other valid reasons why Xander might have decided not to go to college - lack of money, lack of inclination, etc, so what was I to think?

 

[BuffyElevated]

Of course, he did well enough to get promoted by early season five but why bother with inconvenient facts? And maybe Buffy is an immature loser too then since she had to flip burgers for a living...



Fact? You wish. And are you just throwing these words out there for effect or you actually think Xander is racist, sexist or homophobic?



He refused? I presume you mean Giles as the strong male figure. When has Giles ever tried to be a presence in Xander's life, apart from demon slaying?



There was also a certain lack of, you know, money. And not everyone who doesn't go to college is "not intelligent enough". Xander isn't the bookish type, that doesn't make him stupid. Cordelia couldn't go to college, is she "not intelligent enough" too?



I know, I know. This Andrew fellow. Annoying, is 't he? Wait, you meant Xander? You might want to rewatch The Harvest, Prophecy Girl, Killed By Death, Go Fish, What's My Line, Becoming, Halloween, The Zeppo, Where the Wild Things Are, Primeval, Grave among other episodes. Yes, in later seasons Xander was mostly a wallpaper but then again you can say that about everyone not named Buffy, Willow or Spike (in S7 you can also safely remove Willow from the list too).



Yes, because Anya was so willing to engage in such discussions. Not.

I love you... You said everything I would have said if I'd been here to reply right after seeing Cait's post. You seriously stole every argument against her points right out of my mouth/head. 🙂

 

[caitaintdead]

Because Buffy's S6 arc is quite similar to Xander's S4 arc, only with 895454854% more angst and naked demonic lover. If Xander isn't "mature enough" to get a half-decent job immediately when he needed one, then I guess Buffy isn't good enough, either, if we are to follow your line of reasoning. The whole point is that they were in a funk, depressed, not themselves, yadda, yadda.

Once again you aren't exactly listening (reading?) what I'm saying. You're intentionally swapping words here and there to try and make what I'm saying take on a different meaning. I don't really feel any need to do that, so I won't. I will just reiterate again that my issue wasn't with him being 'able to get a half-decent job immediately when he needed one'. Once again, you're writing like I said that... I'm fairly certain that you'll find that I didn't. My entire issue with his job problems was that he couldn't hold a job. He kept getting fired, and not trying very hard to be adequate. If you want to use Buffy as a comparison, aside from her 'the burgers are people' firing, which was due to supernatural reasons and not her, she came to terms with what she had to do to survive in the world, gritted her teeth, and got on with it.

It's been awhile since I've seen Season 4, but I'll try and find some of the reasons why he got fired. I mean obviously loudly talking about having sex with Anya in front of young children wasn't a great moment was it? (Well... hilarious for the audience I suppose!)

Xander was lying and manipulating people all the time back in high school? Damn, he is machiavelian indeed, isn't he?

Don't tell me I never give him credit for anything then 😉 And yes I realise this is opening a whole new can of worms, but I thought his behaviour in attempting to manipulate Buffy to kill Angel in Becoming 2, and then again his manipulation of the situation in Revelations in trying to get Faith to murder a souled being, was out of line. If you don't agree, that is fine, but personally I feel that omitting information and taking advantage of situations is a bad character trait.

I really don't think so, unless Xander's dad was never home. It's not as if the gang deals with demons every day.

Well we have no idea exactly what his home life was like really do we? We are only given glimpses.

Because Xander wasn't just comic relief in them but a vital part of the main plot and was the one who either helped a lot or was even essential in saving the day. You claimed he was purely there "to do nothing but tell really bad jokes at inappropriate moments.". This is demonstrably false, hence my examples.

I actually haven't watched many Xander centric episodes because I don't like him. Maybe I should give them a re-watch at some point. I can't stand The Zeppo though so won't be watching that one.

Anya's way of discussing anything is "my way or the highway". See The Replacement or Triangle or Where The Wild Things are.

We're not discussing Anya's way of discussing things. We are discussing whether or not Xander should have bought up the fact that he didn't want to marry her before the actual day of the wedding. We are discussing if it is okay to leave a woman standing on her own, crying, at her own wedding, over something that is basically a fancy nightmare and walk away.

Well, you ignored all the other valid reasons why Xander might have decided not to go to college - lack of money, lack of inclination, etc, so what was I to think?

I assumed that because he didn't do well on his test (only got about 740 combined), that he wasn't the brightest spark, and wouldn't be able to get in to college. I assumed that if he got only half of Willow's score then that would mean he roughly only got 50%, which means he failed right? Someone American can probably clear more up for me I suppose, but that was my assumption!

 

[sosa lola]

Okay, I feel the need to point out that AtS is much darker and it takes itself much more seriously then BtVS does. AtS on the other hand does not have any lame joke sidekicks that are purely there to do nothing but tell really bad jokes at inappropriate moments.

If Xander was just that, then I seriously wouldn't be his biggest fan. What you just described was Andrew, not Xander. There are a lot of episodes, especially in the high school seasons, that treat Xander as a serious character. Actually, Xander lost his sense of humor in S7 and became a quiet, mature young man who sees and thinks more than talks.

I'm fairly certain that if you saw a 17 year old boy acting incredibly homophobic, racist, or sexist you would still believe that he was liable to take responsibility for his behaviour.

When was Xander homophobic, racist or sexist? Do you mean by homophobic his reaction to Larry? What about his relationship with Willow later? That shows he isn't homophobic, unless we call Buffy homophobic for her reaction to Willow coming out.

Xander dated a black woman on the show and S8, that means he isn't racist. Unless you meant Angel and Spike - his reasons for disliking them are more than just them being vampires, though I don't fault anyone for hating vampires, that's common sense.

Sexist? The man who considers a woman his hero, the man whose best man was a woman, the man who voted a woman to be the boss instead of choosing himself.

This makes me feel like Xander was not interested in maturing, but interested in staying stagnant.

I disagree. By S7, Xander was one of the most mature characters in the verse, perhaps more mature than Giles himself. He'd grown up a great deal to become the supportive man in S7.

For starters, the reason he was working rather than at college was because he wasn't intelligent enough to actually go.

Xander could have gone to college if he had enough money. I think he really doesn't wanna go. He's not book-smart but that doesn't mean he's not smart at all, he's smart enough to become the head of a construction crew at the age 19. That's impressive.

The joke all through the season was that he was getting fired all the time. Basically - he didn't even have the maturity level to hold down a job that 14 year olds can manage.

I don't think it's about being dumb as much as lack of direction, depression, and inferiority that made him lose all these jobs. Because if he was that dumb, how come he was able to get promoted in a job in the very next season, he just needed to be in a better place emotionally to be able to succeed.

It is simply completely disgusting to leave someone at the altar. Not only is it completely heartbreaking for the person, but utterly humiliating.

I completely agree. And I'm sorry to hear about what happened to you. That's an awful thing to do to a person.

I think the situation with Xander and Anya is a little different though, because Xander was there and the wedding and was going to marry Anya despite the doubts. "Nothing on earth can stop this wedding now."

What happened? Anya's victim happened. He came seeking revenge and he punished Anya using Xander. I think what Xander did wrong was leaving the place the way he did. He should have stuck around even if he cancelled the wedding.

The mature thing to do would be to discuss it with Anya, instead of watching her get excited only to let her down at the actual wedding.

I think he was excited himself and wanted to marry her despite the doubts. I don't think he thought about running away at all until he lived through those visions.

 

[zobothehobo]

I just want to mention Xander didn't go to college because he didn't get in. I'm still not clear on if he even applied anywhere but never did they mention that Xander had money issues with going to college. Several times they mention Xander had grade issues and SAT score issues with going to college. There are many reasons one would go into the workforce instead of straight into college, I agree... but Xander didn't go to college because he didn't get in and it was heavily implied he didn't get in because of his grades and test scores. Also in no way to grades and test scores directly and/or accurately represent intelligence. I am a very intelligent and capable young woman. However, if you look at my transcripts from high school and college, you won't see good grades.

I believe Xander was smart enough for college... but he didn't get in... and I'm not sure he even made the effort. Since it's not really made clear that he even applied to college, I'm going to assume he didn't apply. Especially since he says when he gets his SAT scores that he'll be going straight into the workforce. He assumed it would be too hard and didn't even look at going to a community college or city school (which are REALLY cheap and they don't really turn people away). Intelligence isn't the issue here... self confidence and work ethic are the issues.

 

[The Unspoken]

Come season 7, Xander is overseeing an entire construction crew. When it comes to career and financial security, he's the most succesful Scoobie by far. Not only that, but he's also capable of perfectly combining his career with aiding Buffy, as demonstrated in 'Lessons'.

And let's not forget:

And the glorified bricklayer picks up a spare.