"If you touch my sister, hurt her, you're gonna wake up on fire"

[Icarium]

I didn't even remember this happening, so it kind of surprised me after I finished the series I saw people mentioning it. My reaction is pretty much "Talk, all talk". We know that Spike, sadly won't go away, so a moot point doesn't even begin to describe it.

First of all, this was an issue entirely between Spike and Buffy, and Buffy was perfectly capable of extracting any sort and degree of revenge or restitution that she felt was appropriate. It didn't involve Dawn, Xander, Willow, Giles, or the guy with the cheese tray. This is not a case of a man overpowering some helpless woman. Both Buffy and Spike are super powered beings, as nearly equal in strength and skill as any two characters in the Buffyverse, which of itself is proof that Dawn, whatever her motivation might be, would be totally unable to carry out any such threat on a being who could hear her approaching from a city block away and smell her from the other side of town. Just about the only chance that she would have had against Spike would be to borrow Buffy's rocket launcher and take him out from long distance. And on top of everything else, she had warned him in advance. At best, he would be prepared for anything that she might try, and at the worst, he could have found her alone somewhere, and even with the chip firing, killed her so quickly that she wouldn't have any chance whatsoever to defend herself. That takes care of the stupid part.

Huh? What about the chip? If Spike can kill despite it, his arc makes even less sense then it does otherwise. And yes, in a TV show Dawn would never be able to defeat Spike...unless the plot says so - see Anya killing Ubies in Chosen. But since Dawn doesn't know she is a fictional character, she also doesn't know her threat is bound to be empty. There are plenty of ways a human can defeat a vampire, they are just not used in the show becuase the plot demands Buffy to do the heavy lifting fighting-wise. Even if Dawn were so helpless as you claim she could have just given Riley a call, I am sure he would have been very happy to dust Spike with extreme prejudice. Or summoned Anya or Halfrek.

As for the issue being between Spike and Buffy, if a person is content being the victim and making excuses for the abuser, it's perfectly normal and even advisable for the person's friends to step in. If Willow had wiped Tara's mind daily and Buffy learned about that would you say she shouldn't have stepped up because that was an issue between Tara and Willow?

And as Buffy herself said later in the season, in the time and place where Dawn, Buffy, and Spike lived, there was no place for vendettas. The mission had to come first.

Which, funnily enough, clearly proved that Dawn was very much right to consider an intervention as Buffy was putting Spike ahead of the mission without even noticing it.

Strangely, I have been in almost the exact same argument, on the opposite side, arguing about how Angel should be held answerable for Angelus' actions, only to be informed in no uncertain terms that Angel with a soul can be in no way held answerable for what Angelus might have done.

Personally I don't hold Spike responsible for his soulless deeds. But you can't give him credit for helping Dawn and then also give him a get out of jail free card for whatever bad things he did. "It wasn't really me" is a valid argument but it cuts both ways.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Whoo what a topic. I, too, have what is probably considered a more unpopular opinion about this interaction. But let me try to explain myself:

First of all, it broke my heart that this was the last true interaction that the two of them had, (even through season 9). To me, Buffy alone wasn't the face of Spike's quest to be better. Yes of course it started out that way; she was the face of his obsession. At first Spike did things to protect Dawn, for the sake of Buffy's approval, ("Blood Ties" is a great example). But the more he did, the more he felt truly responsible for Dawn, not just out of obligation, but something more. Though it wasn't explicitly discussed, I believe there is plenty of evidence that Spike valued his brotherly relationship with Dawn greatly, and that his relationships with both Dawn and Buffy, even as a monster, are what helped him realize that he wanted to become a man. When Buffy was dead, Spike--the so-called monster--was ready to devote the rest of his un-life to standing by Dawn's side. Not thinking there would ever be any upside as far as a relationship with Buffy was concerned, he was in it for Dawn. I loved that. In other words: Dawn was a very big part of Spike's transformation.

As such, she--like Buffy--got to see firsthand what progress he had made. One of my favorite scenes is in "Tough Love," when Spike desperately tries to make Dawn see that she's not evil. Tries to downplay how much he was hurt by Glory, for her sake. In the presence of Dawn, we see Spike act as an empathetic and devoted protector; she brings out in him the very things that an evil monster is never supposed to be able to achieve.

What bothers me about the scene in question is not that Dawn is upset with Spike. I would be very puzzled if she wasn't. But it's the finality of her tone, and her apparent resignation to hating him indefinitely that bothers me. It's not so much the threat in this scene that bothers me, but more the lack of forgiveness that follows, especially in light of what Spike did in the aftermath of SR. What bothers me is that Dawn didn't know what happened between them for the entirety of their relationship. Didn't know that Buffy beat Spike within an inch of his life and didn't so much as go back to check to see if he had the strength to make it back to his crypt before sunrise, nor did she ever so much as apologize for it. That she treated him like a "thing" and took advantage of his devotion to her. But MOST importantly, I don't think Dawn ever knew what actually happened in the bathroom. That Spike stopped. Buffy kicked him off and he stopped. Didn't try again. Could have, easily. Didn't. Went home. Went to Africa. In other words: Spike was the reason why Spike didn't actually succeed. And he needs to get credit for that.

I mean IN NO WAY to simply excuse the events of SR. But the fact that Dawn only had half a picture of what had actually happened between Buffy and Spike--a blurry watercolor, even--is what makes me so upset. Look, you tell someone "that guy tried to rape your sister," and that "someone" in question, and all he/she meant to you doesn't matter. You just, well, see red. But after all that had happened between Dawn and Spike, I desperately wanted her to learn the details of what happened both in that episode and in the entire season, and to forgive him at some point in the season. To learn that what happened that night wasn't as simple as it was made to seem. To give him credit for his soul. For not actually doing the thing that everyone insists he set out to do, (which I truly believe he most certainly did not, btw).

I think that anyone who doesn't see the events of the scene in SR the way I do, will most likely disagree. I understand that.

 

[Ripper666]

I loved and hated this scene! On the one hand it was very impressing to see Dawn standing up making a point. She showed how much she loved Buffy. I found this impressing becasue I think it's very brave from her to say that as a normal human to a vampire.(Even if I think that she new exactly that Spike wouldn't hurt her).
On the other hand I was sad because I loved the Spike/Buffy and much more the Dawn/Spike friendship. I liked Spike because I tried to help and protect her! I loved how he always said "Cookie" to her! So it made me sad to see this relationship break. And I also think that Spike was really hurt from the things that Dawn said. So aa love-hate scene! ( I tend to hate!)

 

[Kairos]

I would actually have loved a squishy Spike moment when Dawn tells Spike that, while she hates that it happened, she doesn't blame him for any evil deeds he did without a soul. Maybe end with a "But if you ever lose your soul... you better leave town." We only got to see Buffy give Spike that forgiveness/trust, don't we?

Right - because Buffy was the only one who felt it.

Dawn was done with Spike; she trusted him when he didn't have a soul, and he betrayed her by trying to hurt her sister. Whether or not he has one now is irrelevant; if he tried to hurt her sister again, she'd set him on fire either way.

Whatever bond Dawn and Spike had originally came entirely from his pre-soul time. If it's true he's changed since then and he's not the same person who betrayed her, then the bond they had is gone too. They're starting from scratch - or would, if Dawn had any reason to want to start from scratch with him.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

[MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION]

I agree on the second half of you post, but sadly, while I think he would never kill Dawn unless he had to, I think he was simply looking after her because he was happy someone was nice to him, and interested in him, but most importantly, that she was Buffy's little sister. I think he could have stayed with her for years after Buffy's death (maybe even until she died) but I think he would have done that because Dawn's the only piece of Buffy he had left. I read a believeable fanfic once, set in the future, where Spike sleeps with Dawn simply because she smells like Buffy. Because in a way, she is a part of Buffy, or has a part of Buffy in her.

 

[Aloverssoulz]

I was all "Woah! o.o..."

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

My eyebrows raised, I will admit. There's hope for Dawn yet, lol. She's got a fierce streak in her. It also reminds me of what Buffy said toGiles regarding Dawn - that shed have to stop him. If he tried to kill her.

 

[KellGreen]

I was thinking along the lines of WTF?

I thought it was just sad on many so many levels. After what he's gone through just for her, she's gonna be like that? I don't recall at any time seeing a reference to an actual, detailed conversation between Buffy and Dawn wherein she was fully informed about what happened. My understanding was primarily that Xander had told Dawn... but please correct me here if i'm mistaken. I also thought some of it included additional anger that she had directed towards Spike for essentially dropping her after Buffy was brought back, and then leaving her altogether after SR (I think she shares Buffy's abandonment issues, or, well, has her own). Also, the SR scene wouldn't have even happened if Dawn hadn't stuck her nose into things & gone to Spike after Entropy anyway.

I'm all for the "burning bed" treatment and all (great movie IMO), but it just didn't fit here in my head. I mean, would we have cheered on Clem for threatening to set Buffy on fire while asleep after the extreme DV brutal beating she gave Spike in Dead Things? (If Clem had pulled a Dawn there, of course)

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I was thinking along the lines of WTF?

I thought it was just sad on many so many levels. After what he's gone through just for her, she's gonna be like that?

I kind of think "tried to rape my sister" beat "taking care of me, trying to save me, telling me stories, being generally nice".

I don't recall at any time seeing a reference to an actual, detailed conversation between Buffy and Dawn wherein she was fully informed about what happened. My understanding was primarily that Xander had told Dawn... but please correct me here if i'm mistaken.

As been said above, I think anyone who hears "X tried to rape your sister" have enough details to get seriously pissed, and be ready to side with the victim, not the predator. I mean, what was she going to do, force Buffy to go through it in detail, so Dawn could make sure exactly how bad it was.

Maybe Dawn thought "Maybe he's sorry". But why should she care? She didn't owe him anything after that.

I think that's also when it hit Dawn; "Spike's a murderer. He's tried to kill Buffy. He's killed others. He might have raped others. Oh God, he really is a monster".

I also thought some of it included additional anger that she had directed towards Spike for essentially dropping her after Buffy was brought back, and then leaving her altogether after SR (I think she shares Buffy's abandonment issues, or, well, has her own). Also, the SR scene wouldn't have even happened if Dawn hadn't stuck her nose into things & gone to Spike after Entropy anyway.[/quote]

I think that's probably part of what made Dawn so mad; she must have blamed herself. Not that she ever should. That's actually a really bad thing to say. Dawn didn't make Spike try to rape Buffy. Spike did that all on his own.

I'm all for the "burning bed" treatment and all (great movie IMO), but it just didn't fit here in my head. I mean, would we have cheered on Clem for threatening to set Buffy on fire while asleep after the extreme DV brutal beating she gave Spike in Dead Things? (If Clem had pulled a Dawn there, of course)

I wouldn't cheer Clem on for anything. I don't like him. He hangs out with murderers. He's either a bad guy, or he's fine with hanging out with bad guys. Either way, I don't like him. So comparing him to Dawn, bad. However, I would probably respect for him for standing up for a friend.

PS. I think that everything Buffy did to Spike could be excused because a)he has it coming b)she was in a really bad place and Spike was exploiting that.

 

[Hale Caesar]

I reacted like "Shut up Dawn, no one likes you. Spike is 50x more awesome than you"

 

[dexeded]

I would actually have loved a squishy Spike moment when Dawn tells Spike that, while she hates that it happened, she doesn't blame him for any evil deeds he did without a soul. Maybe end with a "But if you ever lose your soul... you better leave town." We only got to see Buffy give Spike that forgiveness/trust, don't we?

Strangely, I have been in almost the exact same argument, on the opposite side, arguing about how Angel should be held answerable for Angelus' actions, only to be informed in no uncertain terms that Angel with a soul can be in no way held answerable for what Angelus might have done.

Personally I don't hold Spike responsible for his soulless deeds. But you can't give him credit for helping Dawn and then also give him a get out of jail free card for whatever bad things he did. "It wasn't really me" is a valid argument but it cuts both ways.

What puzzles me about this thread is the lack of responsibility people seem to thrust upon Spike for his actions in his pre-soul period. I don't distinguish Spike as soulless 'Spikelus' and ensouled Spike. He's just Spike. In the later seasons of BtVS, my preconceived notions of souls making all the difference, like it was implied with Angel, were abolished. Spike sought out his soul. That's different from Angel have been cursed with one. Spike wanted a soul. He wanted to be good. If he ever lost his soul, I'm sure the guilt made possible by the moral compass would've been gone, but he wouldn't have been evil. And even as a soulless being, he would've still felt guilt for what he did to Buffy, not because it was inherently, morally wrong, but because he hurt the one he loves. Soulful Spike should still be held responsible for his soulless actions, but actively getting his soul would set him ahead in redemption.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Spike sought out his soul. That's different from Angel have been cursed with one. Spike wanted a soul. He wanted to be good. If he ever lost his soul, I'm sure the guilt made possible by the moral compass would've been gone, but he wouldn't have been evil. And even as a soulless being, he would've still felt guilt for what he did to Buffy, not because it was inherently, morally wrong, but because he hurt the one he loves. Soulful Spike should still be held responsible for his soulless actions, but actively getting his soul would set him ahead in redemption.

I agree with literally every single word quoted above, in this order. 🙂 This is completely, exactly, how I feel about Spike and his soul. It sums up how I feel about the extent of his responsibility, and the extent of his redemption. The value of it. The likely consequences of a situation in which he doesn't have his soul later on, (

Spoiler

proven in the Spike comics

). How he feels about what happened in SR, and the nature of it.

Every word of this! (Can I use it as my "signature?") 😀

 

[white avenger]

As been said above, I think anyone who hears "X tried to rape your sister" have enough details to get seriously pissed, and be ready to side with the victim, not the predator. I mean, what was she going to do, force Buffy to go through it in detail, so Dawn could make sure exactly how bad it was.

Maybe Dawn thought "Maybe he's sorry". But why should she care? She didn't owe him anything after that.

On the contrary, the initial reaction that just about anyone who is told "X tried to rape your sister," when X was not only someone who they considered a close friend, but also as a trusted protector would be shock and disbelief. Look at the cases where serial killers or war criminals are arrested and all of their neighbors, co-workers, and friends totally deny the charges, even going so far as to serve as character witnesses as to the accused's sterling personality. Add to that the fact that Dawn knew how much Xander, whose version of what happened would have almost certainly been the one that she would have heard, disliked and distrusted Spike, even when he stayed to protect Dawn and patrol with the Scoobies after Buffy died. Dawn never thought of Spike as a monster, even when his motives for helping Buffy and the gang were in doubt. I can't see her totally condemning Spike without at the very least giving him a chance to defend himself. Also remember that it was that very "monster" who Buffy herself wanted to protect Dawn AFTER the attempted rape occurred, and who, even though limited in any direct action by his chip, could still have quite easily engineered circumstances that would have left Dawn severely injured or dead if that was his intention.

Look at Dawn's initial reaction when she first saw Spike in the high school basement. Granted, she didn't rush to him with open arms, but neither did she treat him like someone who she saw as a monster and potential rapist, either, and that was before she took note of his physical/mental/emotional condition.

The whole "burning bed" threat scene should have either been expanded on, showing Dawn first asking Spike face to face if the event actually happened, her initial shock at hearing the admission from his own lips, and THEN making the totally impossible to accomplish threat, then later, after either getting the full story from Buffy, including Spike's acquisition of a soul as some small atonement, making some sort of conditional truce and offering the possibility of a renewed, if not quite the same, friendship, or the whole thing should have been deleted altogether.

Forgiving Spike under those circumstances would be just as acceptable as the same thing that was done for Angel during Season 3, and, while Dawn wasn't actually there at the time, she would remember the event, due to the false memories implanted in her by the monks who created her.

 

[dexeded]

I agree with literally every single word quoted above, in this order. 🙂 This is completely, exactly, how I feel about Spike and his soul. It sums up how I feel about the extent of his responsibility, and the extent of his redemption. The value of it. The likely consequences of a situation in which he doesn't have his soul later on, (

Spoiler

proven in the Spike comics

). How he feels about what happened in SR, and the nature of it.

Every word of this! (Can I use it as my "signature?") 😀

Whoops, can't rep you right now. Yeah, you can! I always thought this soul thing was how everyone viewed it, but after seeing this thread, I guess not.

 

[Dagenspear]

Wow. You people put a lot of thought into this, didn't you? I honestly didn't put anymore thought into it than, 'lol. How would she do that?' You guys do realize that Spike wasn't really trying to rape Buffy, right? He didn't understand that he was hurting her, and when he did, he stopped. He even got soul so he wouldn't do it again.

 

[Ripper666]

Cookie? Is that how "Niblet" translates on german?

I loved how he always said "Cookie" to her!

"

Well you're right, cookie is not the right word. But I can't translate "niblet" on any translator. In German he always says "crumb" to her!

 

[white avenger]

What puzzles me about this thread is the lack of responsibility people seem to thrust upon Spike for his actions in his pre-soul period.

Personally, I'm fine with either holding Spike responsible for his pre-soul actions or not doing so, just as long as there's a consistency between how he is judged and how Angel is judged. No matter what vile, despicable things Angelus did, Angel is never held responsible for them. It's as if Angelus and Angel were two separate people entirely. Mention Spike, though, and we're supposed to never forget all of the evil things, including killing 2 Slayers, and trying to rape Buffy, despite him havinf a soul now. Maybe we should start referring to him pre-soul as Spikeus so that we can make the distinction more easily.

 

[dexeded]

Personally, I'm fine with either holding Spike responsible for his pre-soul actions or not doing so, just as long as there's a consistency between how he is judged and how Angel is judged. No matter what vile, despicable things Angelus did, Angel is never held responsible for them. It's as if Angelus and Angel were two separate people entirely. Mention Spike, though, and we're supposed to never forget all of the evil things, including killing 2 Slayers, and trying to rape Buffy, despite him havinf a soul now. Maybe we should start referring to him pre-soul as Spikeus so that we can make the distinction more easily.

I agree with the consistency point, which is why I also hold Angel responsible for his actions as Angelus. It makes him more complex, I think, especially considering what he did to the W&H lawyers in AtS. Which is why it annoyed me that only Angelus remembered the Beast. So I'm all down with the consistency, but on the side that soulful beings should be held responsible for their soulless actions, or at least be acknowledged that it was them and not some seperate soulless entity that committed the crimes.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

No matter what vile, despicable things Angelus did, Angel is never held responsible for them. It's as if Angelus and Angel were two separate people entirely.

Exactly, and the writers themselves always gave Angel this out: in Becoming II when his soul is restored, he's confused and doesn't know where he is or what he's done. In Ats, Angel doesn't "remember" the Beast, though Angelus does. Over and over again they set this tone heavily implying that they are two separate beings.

Meh it's ok, look at what progress Spike was able to make without a soul, and compare that to Angelus. 🙂 But I digress...!

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I agree with literally every single word quoted above, in this order. 🙂 This is completely, exactly, how I feel about Spike and his soul. It sums up how I feel about the extent of his responsibility, and the extent of his redemption. The value of it. The likely consequences of a situation in which he doesn't have his soul later on, (

Spoiler

proven in the Spike comics

). How he feels about what happened in SR, and the nature of it.

Every word of this! (Can I use it as my "signature?") 😀

Anyone else here who think that Lynch wrote Spike veeeerry out of character in that comics? I hate that it's canon, because I don't believe Spike would have acted like that when losing his soul. He killed people for over a hundred years and enjoyed it, and now he thought he was good, even without a soul? Pu-lease.

---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------

On the contrary, the initial reaction that just about anyone who is told "X tried to rape your sister," when X was not only someone who they considered a close friend, but also as a trusted protector would be shock and disbelief. Look at the cases where serial killers or war criminals are arrested and all of their neighbors, co-workers, and friends totally deny the charges, even going so far as to serve as character witnesses as to the accused's sterling personality. Add to that the fact that Dawn knew how much Xander, whose version of what happened would have almost certainly been the one that she would have heard, disliked and distrusted Spike, even when he stayed to protect Dawn and patrol with the Scoobies after Buffy died. Dawn never thought of Spike as a monster, even when his motives for helping Buffy and the gang were in doubt. I can't see her totally condemning Spike without at the very least giving him a chance to defend himself. Also remember that it was that very "monster" who Buffy herself wanted to protect Dawn AFTER the attempted rape occurred, and who, even though limited in any direct action by his chip, could still have quite easily engineered circumstances that would have left Dawn severely injured or dead if that was his intention.

I bet she was hesitant at first, but then she had the entire summer to think it through. To recall what Buffy tried to tell her in 'Crush'; that Spike's a monster. After that, I think she believed that he was all to well. Thinking about that he was a murderer (I have no idea how she couldn't get that sooner), realizing he was capable of much evil.

I can't blame any person who reacts the way she did, with the info she had.

Look at Dawn's initial reaction when she first saw Spike in the high school basement. Granted, she didn't rush to him with open arms, but neither did she treat him like someone who she saw as a monster and potential rapist, either, and that was before she took note of his physical/mental/emotional condition.

You mean Buffy, right? Dawn didn't see him, I believe.

---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 PM ----------

Another way to think of Angelus & Angel, and pre-soul Spike and souled Spike.

Angel and souled Spike are different from their previous selves. Even physically, since they have the added oponent of a soul. But the demon who made them to the bad deeds is still in them.

I think it can be compared to if someone removes the part of your brain that makes you feel empathy. Then you do evil things, until someone puts that part back. You're simply not the same person, but not entirely different, you know? And you shouldn't be held responsible when a part of your brain is missing, then returned.