"If you touch my sister, hurt her, you're gonna wake up on fire"

[dexeded]

Anyone else here who think that Lynch wrote Spike veeeerry out of character in that comics? I hate that it's canon, because I don't believe Spike would have acted like that when losing his soul. He killed people for over a hundred years and enjoyed it, and now he thought he was good, even without a soul? Pu-lease.

Lol, we've had this argument before.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Disappointment at the finality of the loss of the Spike/Dawn friendship... and reminder that Dawn still is an immature teenager, emotionally. 🙁

 

[arabella]

I think it can be compared to if someone removes the part of your brain that makes you feel empathy. Then you do evil things, until someone puts that part back. You're simply not the same person, but not entirely different, you know? And you shouldn't be held responsible when a part of your brain is missing, then returned.

Sociopaths lack empathy as if it were missing from their brains, and yet I most certainly do hold them responsible for their actions. And in the case of Angel/ Spike I am in favor of holding both accountable for their actions while souless and I think their stated need to atone for their actions while souless is an indication that they also feel that they should be accountable.

 

[Dagenspear]

Anybody think that when Angel was cursed, the horror of what he'd done caused his psyche to split apart into two halves, creating two seperate minds? Like multiple personality disorder.

 

[white avenger]

Anybody think that when Angel was cursed, the horror of what he'd done caused his psyche to split apart into two halves, creating two seperate minds? Like multiple personality disorder.

I would agree wit everything except the "two separate minds" part. Actually only one brain split into 2 halves, resulting in Angel's tendency to make so many half witted mistakes.

 

[Living Dead Boy]

I reacted the same way Spike did afterwards.

"And since when did your sister get unbelievably scary."

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Sociopaths lack empathy as if it were missing from their brains, and yet I most certainly do hold them responsible for their actions. And in the case of Angel/ Spike I am in favor of holding both accountable for their actions while souless and I think their stated need to atone for their actions while souless is an indication that they also feel that they should be accountable.

I actually feel as if soulless Spike & Angel are so different from when they have souls, that they're like different people. There is such a huge difference.

And while Spike & Angel might agree with you, I think that they feel responsible proves my case, which is that they're so different. If they didn't feel guilt, which any human being would, that would be a sign that they're not different enough. I mean, it's not like they were bystanders, they saw and experienced themselves bath in blood, and a demon inside of them still wants more of that.

I hope that if I'm drugged, people won't hold me responsible for things I do then. I will obviously feel aweful later on, knowing that a part of me did horrible things. Or if I get a brain tumour or something that alters my personality, people will remember the real me, and think of the locked up loony as something that's not me, just partly me.

 

[white avenger]

I hope that if I'm drugged, people won't hold me responsible for things I do then. I will obviously feel awful later on, knowing that a part of me did horrible things.

But the reality is, you ARE held responsible for your actions while under the influence of drugs, alcohol, or so called "uncontrollable" rage. If I get drunk and accidentally kill someone, or if, under the influence of some drug, I steal in order to support my habit, it is ME, not the alcohol or drugs that are held responsible. Society does not make allowances for a "the DEVIL made me do it" defense. Angel is, despite the fact that he now fights to help the helpless rather than torture, rape, and murder them, simply Angelus with a conscience and a certain degree of self control. He wasn't a hero by anyone's definition until coming to Sunnydale, and even then, by his own admission, more motivated by his infatuation with a 16 year old girl than any desire to atone for his past wrong doings. Certainly, his relationship with Buffy and her friends inspired him to become a champion, but simple rehabilitation and a change of attitude do not take away his guilt for crimes in his past.

And, before anyone accuses me of simple Angel bashing, the absolute same things can be said for Spike. Or, for that matter, for Faith, for Willow, or, even for Giles. They are all killers, and, with the exception of Faith, have never made any effort to answer for their crimes in any way other than to say, however sincerely, "I'm sorry, and I promise to try and do better from now on." And there's Buffy, herself, who, as we have seen in Season 8, is a bank robber and might even be seen as attributing to the delinquency of minors and reckless endangerment. And let's not forget funny, lovable Andrew, who murdered his best, one might say only, friend, and Xander, the one who sees everything, whose summoning of a demon caused the deaths of at least two innocent victims and endangered at least two of his closest friends. Do I have to even mention all of the deaths, crimes, and atrocities committed for the sake of simple vengeance, by his girlfriend, Anya. Or kleptomaniac Dawn, possibly the least dangerous of the group, but still an unpunished criminal, nonetheless.

Let's face it, folks, the Buffyverse is the place to be if you want to do the crime without doing the time. Our heroes are self confessed murderers, rapists, terrorists, and thieves. I guess all of the skeptics have been right all along. Movies, TV, and comic books have destroyed the morals of our younger generation.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

But the reality is, you ARE held responsible for your actions while under the influence of drugs, alcohol, or so called "uncontrollable" rage. If I get drunk and accidentally kill someone, or if, under the influence of some drug, I steal in order to support my habit, it is ME, not the alcohol or drugs that are held responsible. Society does not make allowances for a "the DEVIL made me do it" defense.

I think it's a big difference between being drugged and doing drugs. It's the difference between being forced to change and changing on purpose. In today's western society, only a few very ignorant people, many of them children, could get away with the "I didn't know better" excuse. But, to continue my metaphor in the way I intended, Spike & Angel didn't choose to be become vampires. Just like anyone could get drugged so much that they lose themselves and atc like snother person.

Angel is, despite the fact that he now fights to help the helpless rather than torture, rape, and murder them, simply Angelus with a conscience and a certain degree of self control.

I agree, Angel is still Angelus, but with some vonus features. But to me, those differences makes a world of difference. So much that one should be able to say it's like two different people. Granted, one of those people has the demon in him, but it's not in control.

I remember the chemistry lessons in school; if you add or take a way a element, a substance can change and become a new substance. There are common ground between these subtances, but they're not the same. That's the way I view Angelus & Angel.

And, before anyone accuses me of simple Angel bashing, the absolute same things can be said for Spike. Or, for that matter, for Faith, for Willow, or, even for Giles. They are all killers, and, with the exception of Faith, have never made any effort to answer for their crimes in any way other than to say, however sincerely, "I'm sorry, and I promise to try and do better from now on." And there's Buffy, herself, who, as we have seen in Season 8, is a bank robber and might even be seen as attributing to the delinquency of minors and reckless endangerment. And let's not forget funny, lovable Andrew, who murdered his best, one might say only, friend, and Xander, the one who sees everything, whose summoning of a demon caused the deaths of at least two innocent victims and endangered at least two of his closest friends. Do I have to even mention all of the deaths, crimes, and atrocities committed for the sake of simple vengeance, by his girlfriend, Anya. Or kleptomaniac Dawn, possibly the least dangerous of the group, but still an unpunished criminal, nonetheless.

But they all had souls. Angelus & Spike didn't have the ability to love and feel empathy the way these characters did. Angelus & Spike did evil because of their lack of a conscience, the other characters did it despite of their conscience.

Let's face it, folks, the Buffyverse is the place to be if you want to do the crime without doing the time. Our heroes are self confessed murderers, rapists, terrorists, and thieves. I guess all of the skeptics have been right all along. Movies, TV, and comic books have destroyed the morals of our younger generation.

Excuse me, but I don't feel destroyed, and I grew up on Buffy and other popculture. And what society do you compare with? Cavepeople who had none of these mediums?

Popculture doesn't necassarily create corruption; it echos what already is in society. Movies, TV and comic books are made by people like you and me, intended to be viewed and resonate by people like you and me.

And I think tha fact is that we are all able to look at shows like Buffy and think "That's imoral" shows that we are in fact not ruined in any way. It shows that comapred to just a few decades ago, we have gone very far. We are allowed to say "that's wrong". We aren't silenced by Kings, nobelmen, or media.

And I'm sure that in a few decades, people will be more evolved, and look back at us and think we're barbarians. Atleast I hope it will get better and better.

 

[white avenger]

I remember the chemistry lessons in school; if you add or take a way a element, a substance can change and become a new substance. There are common ground between these subtances, but they're not the same. That's the way I view Angelus & Angel.



Angelus & Spike didn't have the ability to love and feel empathy the way these characters did.

The way that I was taught chemistry half a century ago, elements remain the same, unless transmuted by something like nuclear reaction. Combining those elements in different proportions produce compounds with specific properties, but the base elements themselves remain the same. Hydrogen and oxygen remain hydrogen and oxygen even when combined to create water.

And it has been established in canon that, while Angelus was the typical vampire, incapable of any tender emotion, Spike was perfectly capable of love and a sense of loyalty.

(And, to The Chosen Slayer, please accept my apologies for dragging your thread so far off course. It's a weakness of mine, and I am really trying to do better.)

 

[InsaneMystic]

But the reality is, you ARE held responsible for your actions while under the influence of drugs, alcohol, or so called "uncontrollable" rage. If I get drunk and accidentally kill someone, or if, under the influence of some drug, I steal in order to support my habit, it is ME, not the alcohol or drugs that are held responsible. Society does not make allowances for a "the DEVIL made me do it" defense.

It's a bit more complicated than that, though. I dunno how the law is in other countries, but over here, you will, e.g., not be held criminally responsible for crimes committed under complete intoxication; you will be acquitted on terms of lack of accountability. (Which is further differentiated into temporary/permanent and complete/partial lack... all of which will play a major part in what consequences you'll face afterwards. "Temporary partial" lack will only result in a (often drastically) reduced severity of your sentence, while "permanent complete" lack will likely mean a change of address for you to a forensic psychiatry for a very long time indeed... but you are still acquitted as innocent of the crime you were charged with.)

You can be made criminally responsible for "willfull intoxication", though. I don't know what the penalty for that is, but if you, say, down a bottle and a half of vodka in order to be acquitted of some crime you intend to commit later on... well, the acquittal for the crime will work out for you, but you will be had for willfull intox. And, of course, a long-term psychological problem rendering you lacking accountability will mean that, even though you're acquitted legally, you will face mandatory time in a forensic psychiatric clinic, under no less secure lock-up than you'd face in jail.

Skytteflickan88 agrees: Immature? I actually saw this event as a sign she was growing up. Did you feel she was overdramatic or something?

The "overdramatic" part is a minor aspect. Much more important is that she completely takes Xander's (of all people... he never liked Spike, and has a well known history of hotheaded, gut-level judgmentalness) snap remark and runs with it, without asking Spike's or (we can quite safely assume) Buffy's account of the situation. That's not a mature reaction to me, at all.

 

[white avenger]

I dunno how the law is in other countries, but over here, you will, e.g., not be held criminally responsible for crimes committed under complete intoxication; you will be acquitted on terms of lack of accountability. (Which is further differentiated into temporary/permanent and complete/partial lack... all of which will play a major part in what consequences you'll face afterwards. "Temporary partial" lack will only result in a (often drastically) reduced severity of your sentence, while "permanent complete" lack will likely mean a change of address for you to a forensic psychiatry for a very long time indeed... but you are still acquitted as innocent of the crime you were charged with.)

You can be made criminally responsible for "willfull intoxication", though.

In the U S, the view is, if you knowingly drank the alcohol or knowingly took the drugs, you are held responsible for your actions while under their influence. Likewise, if you knowingly try to operate an automobile or do anything else that might potentially harm people or property while intoxicated, you are fully responsible for any damage that might result, up to and including manslaughter or even murder if you try and flee the scene of the crime. (The logic there being that if you were aware enough to realize that escape was your only alternative to being charged, you were aware enough not to have committed the crime in the first place) Then there's reckless endangerment if you are caught driving while intoxicated with minors in the car with you. Even if you're just involved in some sort of accident that was someone else's fault, if you are intoxicated, you are going to jail.

Basically, in the U S, you can drink or you can drive, but you can't bo both at the same time.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Ok, let's get this topic back on track people. We're not discussing the things people do while under the influence of anything; we're discussing our reactions to Dawn's threat to Spike in "Beneath You".

 

[SlayerFest]

Mostly, I thought, "You stupid, ungrateful little twit!" and some other expletives not appropriate to be posted here. I fully realize the severity of what Spike had done, but if Buffy wanted to exact any sort of revenge on him in retaliation, that was her right, and nothing that Dawn should be either obligated or allowed to butt into. And before anyone here starts belaboring me for such an attitude, let me explain.

First of all, this was an issue entirely between Spike and Buffy, and Buffy was perfectly capable of extracting any sort and degree of revenge or restitution that she felt was appropriate. It didn't involve Dawn, Xander, Willow, Giles, or the guy with the cheese tray. This is not a case of a man overpowering some helpless woman. Both Buffy and Spike are super powered beings, as nearly equal in strength and skill as any two characters in the Buffyverse, which of itself is proof that Dawn, whatever her motivation might be, would be totally unable to carry out any such threat on a being who could hear her approaching from a city block away and smell her from the other side of town. Just about the only chance that she would have had against Spike would be to borrow Buffy's rocket launcher and take him out from long distance. And on top of everything else, she had warned him in advance. At best, he would be prepared for anything that she might try, and at the worst, he could have found her alone somewhere, and even with the chip firing, killed her so quickly that she wouldn't have any chance whatsoever to defend herself. That takes care of the stupid part.

Secondly, no matter what had happened between Buffy and Spike, it in no way negated the fact that he had been her friend, supporter, confidante, and defender practically from the first minute that she popped into existence in Sunnydale as a shallow, self centered, spoiled little brat. He had suffered for her and literally saved her life on more than one occasion, and had never hesitated a moment in doing so. All of that loyalty, pain, risk, and comfort should have earned him at the very least the opportunity to offer some sort of explanation for what he had done and what he was thinking at the time. But in actuality, that last part goes back to the part where what happened was entirely between Buffy and Spike, and none of Dawn's business, sister or not. That's the ungrateful part.

Now, I know that there are more than a few people here who are going to disagree with just about every word of this post and accuse me of blind support of one of my favorite characters in the Buffyverse, but that's the way that I see what happened. And as Buffy herself said later in the season, in the time and place where Dawn, Buffy, and Spike lived, there was no place for vendettas. The mission had to come first. With her new found maturity and insight, Dawn should have seen that quite clearly.

If someone tried to rape my sister...I wouldn't give a damn about the fact that they might have protected me in the past, or whatever the hell. I don't understand why everyone took her threat so seriously, I would have said the same thing. I don't doubt that she would have tried it, if Spike actually had tried to hurt Buffy again, but it was similar to when Xander told Buffy he'd kill her if anything happened to Willow in season 2. It was just a way to express his anger, he obviously wouldn't have tried to kill Buffy. Also, why doubt that she could have pulled it off? If The First made him attack Buffy or something, after the ordeal he would probably spend much of his time crying/sobbing uncontrollably in the basement, again. He would be vulnerable, and if he did manage to sleep in between his crying fits, Dawn could totally set him on fire (how she'd manage to get in the school with the necessary supplies is another story). She made that one comment to him, rightfully so, to express how she felt. She didn't continue to bring it up or threaten to kill him on more than one occasion, she just wanted to make it clear that she knew what he'd done, and that she'd do anything to protect her sister. And about it not being her business, if someone tries to hurt my family, it's my damn business. There is no explanation for attempted rape, nothing makes that okay. Perhaps it was wrong for Dawn to say what she did, because technically Spike with a soul is a new man, but it's understandable that she felt the need to say it.

To answer the question, I smirk whenever she says that line.

---------- Post added at 04:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:26 PM ----------

Also, the SR scene wouldn't have even happened if Dawn hadn't stuck her nose into things & gone to Spike after Entropy anyway.

This is wrong on so many levels.

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------

On the contrary, the initial reaction that just about anyone who is told "X tried to rape your sister," when X was not only someone who they considered a close friend, but also as a trusted protector would be shock and disbelief. Look at the cases where serial killers or war criminals are arrested and all of their neighbors, co-workers, and friends totally deny the charges, even going so far as to serve as character witnesses as to the accused's sterling personality. Add to that the fact that Dawn knew how much Xander, whose version of what happened would have almost certainly been the one that she would have heard, disliked and distrusted Spike, even when he stayed to protect Dawn and patrol with the Scoobies after Buffy died.

Xander's version was probably: I came upstairs, saw Spike's jacket on the banister...ran into the bathroom and saw your sister on the floor, bruised and crying.

That should have been enough to convince her. Also, you're acting like Dawn shouldn't have been angry with him because he protected her and was generally nice to her. If my dad or grandfather raped my sister, I'd pull a Lorena Bobbit. Everything that they've done for me, would be out the window.

---------- Post added at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 PM ----------

Wow. You people put a lot of thought into this, didn't you? I honestly didn't put anymore thought into it than, 'lol. How would she do that?' You guys do realize that Spike wasn't really trying to rape Buffy, right? He didn't understand that he was hurting her, and when he did, he stopped. He even got soul so he wouldn't do it again.

He stopped because Buffy kicked his ass across the room. If she'd been anyone but the slayer...she would have been raped.

 

[Dagenspear]

And that made him realize that he was hurting her, which made him stop. If his intention had really been to rape her, a kick wouldn't have stopped him. The look on Spike's face says it all. He wasn't trying to rape her.

 

[kndizzle]

She was protecting her sister - It was sweet. She wanted Spike to know she would be watching, as Buffy always had for her. I for one thought it high past time she stopped being such a twit. Of course she reverted back later but it was an important moment for her. I don't think there were alterior motives besides wanting to look out for her sister.

 

[EvilWillow]

I laughed at her....silly little girl, butting into adult problems she has no way of understanding.

 

[EvilWillow]

And that made him realize that he was hurting her, which made him stop. If his intention had really been to rape her, a kick wouldn't have stopped him. The look on Spike's face says it all. He wasn't trying to rape her.

I can't rep you any more, but this!!! 😀

(I love it when you and I agree on something)

 

[white avenger]

Xander's version was probably: I came upstairs, saw Spike's jacket on the banister...ran into the bathroom and saw your sister on the floor, bruised and crying.



He stopped because Buffy kicked his ass across the room. If she'd been anyone but the slayer...she would have been raped.

Considering Xander's personal feelings for Spike, I seriously doubt that he resisted the opportunity to embellish what he saw with what he DIDN'T see to a degree that would have made Andrew green with envy.

And when has Spike EVER been stopped by a single kick, no matter who did it or with how much force was applied? He stopped because he realized that, for the first time since "Smashed," Buffy saying things like "No" and "I don't want you" actually meant what she was saying. If Spike hadn't realized that and stopped himself, Xander wouldn't have been repairing Buffy's house, he would have been rebuilding it from the foundations up.

 

[EvilWillow]

Considering Xander's personal feelings for Spike, I seriously doubt that he resisted the opportunity to embellish what he saw with what he DIDN'T see to a degree that would have made Andrew green with envy.

And when has Spike EVER been stopped by a single kick, no matter who did it or with how much force was applied? He stopped because he realized that, for the first time since "Smashed," Buffy saying things like "No" and "I don't want you" actually meant what she was saying. If Spike hadn't realized that and stopped himself, Xander wouldn't have been repairing Buffy's house, he would have been rebuilding it from the foundations up.

Agreed. I distinctly remember her saying "No" and "stop" before this incident and then continuing to let him do whatever ( and enjoying it as well).

I think it was childish of Xander to even bring it up with Dawn in the first place. She is, in fact, a child and it really was something that shouldn't have been discussed with her. If it had to be discussed, it should have been brought up the way that it was. Xander was just being vindictive because he was still angry at the fact that two women he loved both slept with Spike. But of course, there goes Xander, sticking his nose where it doesn't need to be again.