I'm confused about Angel and Twilight

[ladydorotea]

ladydorotea says that white avenger is wrong because the creators supposedly say so. Sorry but art is all about interpretation and there's nothing in the comic to disprove white avenger's theory. He's not wrong just because the creators are cheating.

I said that the art is open to the interpretation - and his is one that is very personal and- I believe - somewhat far fetched. I also quoted from the creative team mostly to support my claim that the story is likely was intended to be interpreted differently. There is such a phenomena as as fanon, as you well know, as opposed to canon. I am not saying that fanon has no place or not enjoyable on its own though.

 

[EVIL UU]

Because the audience does not want to see what they do not want to see but prefers their own interpretation.

But that's the right of the audience. They don't have to see the work of art the same way the creators do, that's the beauty of it. The creators should not interpret their own works, it's not their job, doing so they rob their audience, take away a part of their experience. The audience can be wrong because what's so wrong about being wrong? It's just fiction.

the majority of the audience trusting the online interpretations rather than their eyes.

I'll never understand that. I usually avoid fan-masturbation, symbolism analysis and such are one thing but what shippers do is just insane. It's one of the reasons I generally stay away from fan communities, these people terrify me.

Same as the 'hit-and-run' approach not working on the licensed story. I.e. : when they bring up a new writer every few month and the said writer so focused on the current arc that they forget what happened a few issues back - this is lazy writing.

It's usually editor's job to keep said writers in check.

 

[white avenger]

I can see how members of the creative team of either title can say that THEY have no intention of character assassination or major character changes, but, ultimately, they aren't the ones who have the final say in the matter. Joss is. If Joss decides to have Angel dye his skin blue and move to Pandora, the artists had better stock up on blue paint.

Joss Whedon has made major character changes in the cast before, Spike being a prime example, and he will continue to do so whenever and however he pleases just as long as he retains creative license, which, as far as I know, he still has. In fact, he has said on at least one occasion that he would not hesitate to completely abandon Season 8 canon, or anything that comes thereafter, if a good enough story idea presents itself. The ending of Season 8, written entirely by Joss himself, was contrary to canon established in the "Fray" miniseries, also written by Joss.

Joss Whedon enjoys plot twists, the bigger and more shocking, the better, and, though he may assure us that he has all of Season 9 plotted out, since none of us have access to that plot outline, we would have no idea whether he stayed true to his original plan or not.

 

[EVIL UU]

I also quoted from the creative team mostly to support my claim that the story is likely was intended to be interpreted differently.

That's the problem, it's not about creators' intentions. If the creators want something to be interpreted in only one way they have to make it as clear and as definite as possible so there's no room for interpretation. They can't blame the fans for interpreting ambiguous parts of the story in a wrong way. It's just not fair.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Torture is not quite the same as character assassination : i.e. making the character an epitome of all things evil, not worthy of loving and not redeemable. To like or dislike the character is our choice as fans and that's when interpretation comes into play. What many here want to deny is that there is even a venue for interpretation. That was my argument.

I think it's a thin line: one fan's character assasination is another fan's passing misstep.

Fandom is like a microscope. Everything is blown out of proportion.

I'm afraid the only explanation of Twangel can be done from the writer's perspective.

Angel was servicing Buffy's story.

Joss wanted Buffy to fall. Hard. So Joss took Angel's typical traits (messia complex, cunning mind, readiness to make decisions for other people without telling them, occasionally killing people preventively "for the greater good") and amped them up to the n-th degree.

Will we get more explanations of Angel's actions in the future seasons? Maybe. My guess is that writers will play the "possessed" card again.

But, if Joss will eventually show us a parallel "Twilight-less" dimension in which Buffy is dead and Simone is a ruler of a quasi-fascist state, I won't be surprised. Joss is evil.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Will we get more explanations of Angel's actions in the future seasons? Maybe. My guess is that writers will play the "possessed" card again.

This reminds me of one of the biggest issues I have with the Twangel thing. That they seem to make things up as they go along. For example, the possession thing seems to have been made up when writing season 9, because people didn't get why Angel did what he did. It's one thing if they had that in mind from the beginning, but I have a hard time respecting a writer that fanwanks his/her own work.

I have to admit, it's not a big in itself if they added the possession thing as a "detail", for example changed it from Angel being heavily influenced to actually being possessed(which I assume could be it) but combined with the other writing that doesn't seem well thought out, it seems bigger if they added it to make the story make sense.

 

[ladydorotea]

But, if Joss will eventually show us a parallel "Twilight-less" dimension in which Buffy is dead and Simone is a ruler of a quasi-fascist state, I won't be surprised. Joss is evil.

Eh? We have already seen Fray future world, and according to future Willow it would have misted away into nothingness if Buffy was not brought there and sent back. Willow sacrificed her life to make sure that did not happen. Dark or no dark - she made sure Buffy was aware of her message and that triggered Retreat and depowering which in turn triggered Twilight. Whether Whistler is evil, crazy or serving his own agenda - he was basically implying the same - there future threads were not visible if Angel were not choosing Twilight. You can call it all an illusion or what not - but that was freaking three major arcs of S8 that supposedly meant nothing. Just because fandom chooses to ignore all of that does not mean it was not important.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

This reminds me of one of the biggest issues I have with the Twangel thing. That they seem to make things up as they go along. For example, the possession thing seems to have been made up when writing season 9, because people didn't get why Angel did what he did. It's one thing if they had that in mind from the beginning, but I have a hard time respecting a writer that fanwanks his/her own work.

I have to admit, it's not a big in itself if they added the possession thing as a "detail", for example changed it from Angel being heavily influenced to actually being possessed(which I assume could be it) but combined with the other writing that doesn't seem well thought out, it seems bigger if they added it to make the story make sense.

I think thay had to retcon Twangel influence/possession because of fandom reaction. Apparently they didn't expect that fans would react so strongly.

Ladydorotea
Eh? We have already seen Fray future world, and according to future Willow it would have misted away into nothingness if Buffy was not brought there and sent back. Willow sacrificed her life to make sure that did not happen. Dark or no dark - she made sure Buffy was aware of her message and that triggered Retreat and depowering which in turn triggered Twilight. Whether Whistler is evil, crazy or serving his own agenda - he was basically implying the same - there future threads were not visible if Angel were not choosing Twilight. You can call it all an illusion or what not - but that was freaking three major arcs of S8 that supposedly meant nothing. Just because fandom chooses to ignore all of that does not mean it was not important.

Time-travel is a tricky thing. Back in 2008 I read two very well-agrumented essays by two clever and erudite fans who successfully proved two mutually exclusive scenarios: that Buffy's time-travel finally connected Buffyverse and Frayverse; and that Buffy's time-travel branched off Frayverse into an alternate timeline. So I won't even try to argue how Willow's actions changed the main timeline - because I don't understand it.

So far, I don't see in canon anything that connects Angel's Twilight arc and Future Dark Willow's arc, plot-wize.

But if season 8 was actually about Angel saving Frayverse -- then writers did even worse job than we think they did. 🙂

 

[ladydorotea]

So far, I don't see in canon anything that connects Angel's Twilight arc and Future Dark Willow's arc, plot-wize.

Well, I have been through this discussion a few times , so let me repeat myself.

After vampires steal the scythe arc Willow has a vision sent by Saga V. - implying they have to go to NY or else. Saga's image was superimposed with Scythe and a vision of burning, melting NY.

To NY they go - and Buffy falls into the time-space rent. (Later we discover that the said rent was opened by the act of space sex and opening of the Twilight plane - which also caused other major 'ripples' through time-space continuum.

In the future Buffy discovers that FDW convinced Fray to hold her there - not letting her return - or else. At the same time the demon monkey was instructed to free Buffy ( same monkey that was placed in the stasis box with the scythe btw, by somebody in the past.) As soon as Buffy frees herself, reaches the rent back to the past - and wins the fight with Fray FDW steps in and says basically way to the past is through my dead body. See , I interpret this as Willow making sure that Buffy is in enough shock to actually go through the next step - out of desire to stop this death from happening - and as result ensures it because eventually Willow finds out about it.

Through her dead body shaken Buffy returns and immediately decides to seek out the ways to save Wilow - add here to the list the dream with Angel from S2 telling her that you cannot tell somebody about their future without changing it to god knows what.

Next step - Buffy sees Willow skin the demon alive and shaken by her knowledge and by Twilight targeting their magic - she compulsively makes a decision to flee and hide and convince everybody to give up their magic.

Here she also actually tells Wilow about the future she saw - thus ensuring that present time Willow knows about the future Wilow's fate.

That in turn triggers their major defeat by Twilight - 'Buffy brought low'. That in turn triggers Buffy's final ascendance - and the discovery that already ascended Angel was behind the whole scheme.

They complete the space tantric sex ritual and the Twilight is opened - which in turn triggers the opening of the rent in the past, magic ripples and brings them the vision of Fray holding her scythe in the future - confirming that yes, the Fray future will happen. ( Add minor things like mutant fish here as well. Add Whistler insistence that he cannot see any futures at all if Twilight thing does not happen. He might be evil lying bastard - but FDW said the same to Fray.)

The skies open the demons pour in ( 'I welcome the coming war' : re : Elder demon.)

Buffy smashed the Seed. Magic is gone for 200 years. Fray future is ensured.

Willow needs to 'work the wound'. Which I always interpreted as wound in the Seed of magic.

Add to this that the person whom Saga trusted in the future was likely Willow herself - sending message back to her present self about the rent in space-time and need to bring Buffy there to ensure that Buffy kills her in the future - which causes Twilight. Add Willow dying smiling and reaching out to something 'so close' as if climaxing and stepping into Saga's dimension.

But of course, it is all just 'tricky future storylines'.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Well, I have been through this discussion a few times , so let me repeat myself.

After vampires steal the scythe arc Willow has a vision sent by Saga V. - implying they have to go to NY or else. Saga's image was superimposed with Scythe and a vision of burning, melting NY.

To NY they go - and Buffy falls into the time-space rent. (Later we discover that the said rent was opened by the act of space sex and opening of the Twilight plane - which also caused other major 'ripples' through time-space continuum.

In the future Buffy discovers that FDW convinced Fray to hold her there - not letting her return - or else. At the same time the demon monkey was instructed to free Buffy ( same monkey that was placed in the stasis box with the scythe btw, by somebody in the past.) As soon as Buffy frees herself, reaches the rent back to the past - and wins the fight with Fray FDW steps in and says basically way to the past is through my dead body. See , I interpret this as Willow making sure that Buffy is in enough shock to actually go through the next step - out of desire to stop this death from happening - and as result ensures it because eventually Willow finds out about it.

Through her dead body shaken Buffy returns and immediately decides to seek out the ways to save Wilow - add here to the list the dream with Angel from S2 telling her that you cannot tell somebody about their future without changing it to god knows what.

Next step - Buffy sees Willow skin the demon alive and shaken by her knowledge and by Twilight targeting their magic - she compulsively makes a decision to flee and hide and convince everybody to give up their magic.

Here she also actually tells Wilow about the future she saw - thus ensuring that present time Willow knows about the future Wilow's fate.

That in turn triggers their major defeat by Twilight - 'Buffy brought low'. That in turn triggers Buffy's final ascendance - and the discovery that already ascended Angel was behind the whole scheme.

They complete the space tantric sex ritual and the Twilight is opened - which in turn triggers the opening of the rent in the past, magic ripples and brings them the vision of Fray holding her scythe in the future - confirming that yes, the Fray future will happen. ( Add minor things like mutant fish here as well. Add Whistler insistence that he cannot see any futures at all if Twilight thing does not happen. He might be evil lying bastard - but FDW said the same to Fray.)

The skies open the demons pour in ( 'I welcome the coming war' : re : Elder demon.)

Buffy smashed the Seed. Magic is gone for 200 years. Fray future is ensured.

Willow needs to 'work the wound'. Which I always interpreted as wound in the Seed of magic.

Add to this that the person whom Saga trusted in the future was likely Willow herself - sending message back to her present self about the rent in space-time and need to bring Buffy there to ensure that Buffy kills her in the future - which causes Twilight. Add Willow dying smiling and reaching out to something 'so close' as if climaxing and stepping into Saga's dimension.

But of course, it is all just 'tricky future storylines'.

You mean, Buffy's time-travel in TOYL was the result of space sex?

It's an interesting theory. I always assumed that it was Dark Future Willow who created the rift. At least that's what her conversations with Harth imply.

The explanatory scenes in NY imply that time-travel happened because of an event in the future that caused (will be causing) ripples. It could be space sex or Willow's death or anything else. I always assumed that it was Willow's death.

I don't say you're wrong. I say that reason of Buffy's time-travel is still open to interpretation.

Yes, after Fray flashforward in the sex issue it became clear that Frayverse will exist in the future. But it doesn't prove that it was space sex that sent Buffy there in TOYL.

As to the chain of the subsequent causes and effects, they're too loosely connected to prove anything. Does Buffy really convince slayers to give up their slayerhood only to save Willow? Does the fact that Willow knows about her fate seals their defeat at Tibet?

Athough, I admit that Joss can retcon Twilight arc and show that without Angel's intervention the world could be much, much worse place. Maybe sketchy manner of telling Angel's backstory is intentional. Maybe Joss plans to insert new information later.

Although I doubt it. A plot twist works well within two-hours movie. But introducing a twist several years after telling the story... Then again, maybe Joss is experimenting on us 🙂

 

[RogueDemonHunter]

Ok, well its sad to see the "new angel" and accept his decisions, but i guess its all there is to do 🙁

 

[white avenger]

Something that we haven't even considered here is that, when the Season 8 and After The Fall story lines began, Dark Horse didn't own the rights to Angel and all of its characters. At best, they would have been able to only use them on a limited basis. Having Angel be the Big Bad, or even the chief minion of the Big Bad, from the very beginning, would have been at the best difficult, because there would have been no way to follow up on it in the next Season. I think that Joss' main story line underwent a major reboot once it became a certainty that he would be able to have access to Angel and Spike on an unlimited basis, and that major reboot has caused more than a little confusion.

 

[ladydorotea]

Joss planned the whole Mexican wrestler masked guy since Angel S5 ( RE: Numero Cinco - 'You will be standing in the cemetery wearing a mask' : RE: A Beautiful Sunset), same as he planned Giles to be killed since BtVS S7 (RE : Lies my parents told me 'What if the vampire who kills me saves the world') - he only went to do AtF with IDW because he wanted the story to continue.

 

[kittenpoker]

Wow, this thread is revealing so many layers to me. Now I want to go back and re-read season 8.

🙂

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Something that we haven't even considered here is that, when the Season 8 and After The Fall story lines began, Dark Horse didn't own the rights to Angel and all of its characters. At best, they would have been able to only use them on a limited basis. Having Angel be the Big Bad, or even the chief minion of the Big Bad, from the very beginning, would have been at the best difficult, because there would have been no way to follow up on it in the next Season. I think that Joss' main story line underwent a major reboot once it became a certainty that he would be able to have access to Angel and Spike on an unlimited basis, and that major reboot has caused more than a little confusion.

You may be up to something.

From Allie 's Q&As:

And I think we abandoned the initial Season 9 plan around issue #28 or so, something like that.

Issue 28 was published Sept., 2009.

Maybe it was about that time that they decided not to prolong the IDW option.

 

[Ripper666]

Finished it right now too and I m confused too! Personally I pick the reason that Angel wanted to live with Buffy all alone, even if I think that this doesn't fit to Angels character at all!

 

[ladydorotea]

I think things might get a bit less ( or more) confused if I post (selected) answers from Scott Allie Q/A's to Angel and Faith #5 from this week. They are all related to Twilight business. Hold on to your seats gentle readers.

1. Bamph: What do you think makes Angel heroic?

Scott: He wants to do right, he wants to help people, he wants to confront evil where he sees it, and he'll put his life on the line to do it. He doesn't ever mean to put himself first.

4. Sosa Lola: Hi, Scott, loved the Harmony issue, so funny! In the issue, Harmony wants to start a campaign to fix Angel's image, twisting the truth by saying that Angel was going to take the good humans to Twilight and leave the bad ones to burn. Angel says later, "But that IS what I was going to..." Was he talking about "creating a new universe and leaving the current one to burn" or "taking the good people to the new universe he created and leaving the bad ones."?

Scott: He meant both. I want to do an issue of Angel drawn by Bob Sikoryak in the style of Charles Schulz in which Angel keeps trying to explain what he was thinking in Season 8, but Faith repeatedly pulls the football out from in front of him, and no one else will listen to him, and every page ends with him saying, "Good grief!" Twenty-two pages of that, at the end of which, still no one knows what the hell he was thinking.
Angel was manipulated into taking point on a very bad plan that he never fully understood because he never bothered to understand it, too wrapped up in the idea of doing an ultimate good deed.

7. Moscow Watcher: Great issue: witty, bouncy sense of humor; priceless jabs at pop culture; dialogues to frame and put on a wall. Christos Gage hit his strige here, and the issue is pure delight from the first to the last page.
Question: when you were working on the issue, especially on the panels where Harmony talks about grooming Angel's public image, did you and Gage talk and maybe joke about parallels between Harmony's PR team and Dark Horse team, who also has to work hard to reestablish Angel as a hero?

Thank you! Happy New Year!

Scott: Yeah, definitely to some degree. We wanted to wink and to nod at some of what's gone on. But we're not trying to say that Angel is a perfect hero, and you should ignore the things he's done. That was Harmony's idea for him, but I think the story is all about his shortcomings as a hero, and how his poor choices and his heroic aspirations come into conflict.

8. Dorotea: Do you think Harmony is right - i.e. 'letting go' of the past and not burdening one's consciousness with guilt is what benefits the individual - and by extension the humanity - the most?

Scott: I think Angel could use a little letting go of the past. You gotta take responsibility for what you've done, trying to atone for it is good, but in this way, yeah, I think Angel could learn a little from Harmony. I think Faith has learned this already, and is better off because of it. We've all got regrets, we've made mistakes, probably none of us so much as Angel. But if you make every day be all about the things you've done in the past, it's a pretty bad way to live.

9. Menomegirl: Hi, Scott. First off, I'd like to say thank you for continuing to do these Q & A's. Secondly, I'd like to say that I'm enjoying these Angel & Faith comics quite a lot. For the first time, I feel like I'm reading a story that's truly worthy of the Angel series itself.

My questions are: how much whitewashing of Angel's character is there going to be? By that I mean, is everything Angel did as Twilight going to be handwaved away (the same way the bad things he did on the series were)?

Scott: I don't think we're trying to do that. Is that what Moscow Watcher was getting at above? I don't read it that way, but I'm curious what readers are seeing. In my comment above, about letting go of the past"”that's not meant to be whitewashing either. Letting go a little isn't saying it never happened, it's just syaing that there's more to life than what already went by. Angel can't seem to do that. A guy who's obsessed with redemption, with making up for his sins, who's hated by a lot of the people around him"”how is that whitewashing? Who's saying Angel didn't screw up? Not us. Not Faith. Certainly not Nadira, who's meant to be a sympathetic character. When a sympathetic character views one of the protagonists as a villain, that's not whitewashing.

13. Skytteflickan88: I'm still very confused about the Twangel deal, but figured another general "WTF was Angel thinking" question wouldn't add to the discussion. So I'm going to ask specifically about something that's been bothering me ever since I read it. When Buffy and Angel are still in the Twilight world, and Buffy rips open a portal and they see Xander and the others fighting against the demons, Buffy wants to go back, but Angel wants her to leave her friends to fight on their own. He actually seems to not understand why she wants to go back, almost like he doesn't get that she can't leave those she loves to fight for their lives. Why is that? Why does it seem like he's forgotten what it feels like to be willing to die for those you love? Did he think they would actually be ok on their own? Did he simply not care about the outcome? Was Twilight possessing him?

Scott: Yes, he was somewhat possessed at that point, but he was also just so caught up in this mission he was committed to that it was the only thing that mattered. He believed that if he followed through on Twilight, it'd all be all right. I know some people are frustrated with the "somewhat possessed" concept, but that's how this works. There are times when he's outright possessed, a puppet, and others when he's heavily influenced, and still others when it's simply his own imperfect judgment buying into the Twilight idea and taking him down bad paths. He believed that what they were doing would bring an end to the fighting, and he believed their friends would be okay"”"They'll survive. They always do.""”but you can see his resolve breaking down in #35 as he and Buffy talk it out.

14. Menomegirl: Thank you! I've read both your reply to me and to Moscow Watcher; you've definitely given me something to think about as the series progresses.

I would like to pose a question that asks for your opinion, rather than a question about the comics, if I may.

Do you think it's redemption that Angel's actually seeking? Or is it absolution that he craves?

Scott: Well, if I understand the difference, I'd say he wants redemption. Absolution would just be forgiveness, and I don't think that's what he wants. Redemption is more objective, more of an actual feat or accomplishment, and that's what he wants. For his current actions to cancel out his previous actions. Also, Absolution is a fine comic written by Christos Gage for another publisher.

22. Moscow Watcher: Hi again, Mr.Allie,

I'm sorry if my previous question sounded like concern about the possibility of whitewashing. I asked about your awareness of certain parallels because I'm curious about the creative process, and how much fandom reactions influence the final product.

My question: on the eve of the New Year, could you tell fans what to expect in 2012? And what do you expect from us in return?

Thank you for answering our questions!

Scott: I just want to understand the notion of whitewashing, because it seems like it's a topic among readers. I've gotten a few emails about it, and the word was used in someone's questions yesterday. I've had emails this week saying that we're either condemning him, trying to destroy him as a character, or whitewashing him, which I think reveals the strong perspectives in the readership. In terms of the new year ... there'll be some shocks and surprises, some fury directed at us, and some announcements about side stories that I think will be exciting. At this moment, we're working on the collections of the first arcs, and the first hardcover collection of Season 8. So I'm gonna have an increasing stack of books I'm proud of, and we're going to get a lot of input from readers.

23. Dorotea: I would like to ask about Whistler and his role in S9, besides being the most irrelevant and badly dressed Big Bad the verse had ever known. With him being stuck in England - are we to assume that his fixation on 'setting things straight' with Angel is his personal obsession, or is this more of a general 'juctice always finds its mark' thing? I mean - he used to be a prominent figure in BtVS verse, why is he currently only concerned with Angel's end of things, when it was really Buffy who ended Twilight?

Scott: Whistler has a complicated agenda that'll be revealed over time. But I think he's always been more interested in Angel than Buffy.


26. Maggie: Hi Scott,

Faith keeps drawing parallels between her and Angel -- but their falls are actually quite different. Will that difference become part of the story? Or are all redemption stories more or less the same?

Scott: Yeah, their sins are very different, but I think the more important difference is their redemption and where they're at now. You're totally right, Maggie, absolutely, but the story is about the differences in where they're at now. In the upcoming arc you get some of what you're asking about, but it's more about redemption than the sins themselves.

 

[VisionGirl]

Joss planned the whole Mexican wrestler masked guy since Angel S5 ( RE: Numero Cinco - 'You will be standing in the cemetery wearing a mask' : RE: A Beautiful Sunset), same as he planned Giles to be killed since BtVS S7 (RE : Lies my parents told me 'What if the vampire who kills me saves the world') - he only went to do AtF with IDW because he wanted the story to continue.

Wow, I hadn't made those connections at all. That's amazing!

But I have to say that in general, based on what we have so far, IDW did a far better job with Angel & the other AtS characters. But Joss admits himself that he doesn't "get" Angel. I think some of the other AtS and IDW writers "get" Angel & write him for us a lot better than Joss himself. And that's what I feel is missing. And I'd probably put Allie in that camp, too. I think that Gage is getting closer. That doesn't mean to say that I don't think any of these writers don't care for Angel or are participating in character assassination...I don't. I just think that Angel is a complex character, probably the most complex in the 'verse. And some people flesh him out better than others.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

13. Skytteflickan88: I'm still very confused about the Twangel deal, but figured another general "WTF was Angel thinking" question wouldn't add to the discussion. So I'm going to ask specifically about something that's been bothering me ever since I read it. When Buffy and Angel are still in the Twilight world, and Buffy rips open a portal and they see Xander and the others fighting against the demons, Buffy wants to go back, but Angel wants her to leave her friends to fight on their own. He actually seems to not understand why she wants to go back, almost like he doesn't get that she can't leave those she loves to fight for their lives. Why is that? Why does it seem like he's forgotten what it feels like to be willing to die for those you love? Did he think they would actually be ok on their own? Did he simply not care about the outcome? Was Twilight possessing him?

Scott: Yes, he was somewhat possessed at that point, but he was also just so caught up in this mission he was committed to that it was the only thing that mattered. He believed that if he followed through on Twilight, it'd all be all right. I know some people are frustrated with the "somewhat possessed" concept, but that's how this works. There are times when he's outright possessed, a puppet, and others when he's heavily influenced, and still others when it's simply his own imperfect judgment buying into the Twilight idea and taking him down bad paths. He believed that what they were doing would bring an end to the fighting, and he believed their friends would be okay—"They'll survive. They always do."—but you can see his resolve breaking down in #35 as he and Buffy talk it out.

See, Allie's response to this question confuses me even more, and does nothing to answer our question. Was Angel possessed or not? Allie's saying that Angel could have been, at any time, "outright possessed", a puppet, or heavily influenced, and "still others when it's simply his own imperfect judgment buying into the Twilight idea and taking him down bad paths." wtf? That's just an easy way out of answering the question, by basically saying "Well, he could have been possessed or not! You'll never know!" Skytteflickan88's question was very specific, and Allie answered very generally. Sounds to me, though, that Allie's leaning towards the choice that Angel was not possessed. Thoughts?

 

[brinkster130]

See, Allie's response to this question confuses me even more, and does nothing to answer our question. Was Angel possessed or not? Allie's saying that Angel could have been, at any time, "outright possessed", a puppet, or heavily influenced, and "still others when it's simply his own imperfect judgment buying into the Twilight idea and taking him down bad paths." wtf? That's just an easy way out of answering the question, by basically saying "Well, he could have been possessed or not! You'll never know!" Skytteflickan88's question was very specific, and Allie answered very generally. Sounds to me, though, that Allie's leaning towards the choice that Angel was not possessed. Thoughts?

I'm with you on the confusion, I wish the would give a more clear answer. Although, I didn't get the feeling that he was leading towards the choice that Angel was not possessed, I mean the very first thing he says in his response is that he was somewhat possessed. I'm guessing when the clear answer is given it will be that he was slightly influenced. You know right in the middle. *sigh*