Is Angel Lame?

[InsaneMystic]

The very definition of introversion is that you look inside rather than outside. That means, an introvert finds himself more interesting than the rest of the world. So, not a trace of ignorance in that.

If the BHD weren't obsessed with himself, he would not sit around brooding. Ever.

 

[Kean]

The very definition of introversion is that you look inside rather than outside.

However, nowhere does it say what that person is looking at. To say otherwise is a massive assumption.

As well as that, it implies that extroverts don't think about themselves at all. Which again is a rather massive assumption too.

 

[InsaneMystic]

However, nowhere does it say what that person is looking at. To say otherwise is a massive assumption.

Well, obviously, looking inside they'll be looking at something that's part of themselves!? I don't see your point there.

As well as that, it implies that extroverts don't think about themselves at all. Which again is a rather massive assumption too.

Nope, it doesn't... they will, however think about themselves massively less than introverts do.

 

[Kean]

Well, obviously, looking inside they'll be looking at something that's part of themselves!? I don't see your point there.

My point, and I say this with all due respect, because I do respect you, is that being an introvert does not place you in a position to speak for all introverts. Least of all this introvert. More to the point it does not qualify you to make assessments on the content or nature of my thoughts, or anyone elses' for that matter. Which is what you are doing with this claim of all introverts being obsessed with themselves. Quite frankly I'd appreciate it if you didn't continue to make such claims.

Nope, it doesn't... they will, however think about themselves massively less than introverts do.

Have you any evidence to this apart from your own opinion?

 

[InsaneMystic]

My point, and I say this with all due respect, because I do respect you, is that being an introvert does not place you in a position to speak for all introverts. Least of all this introvert. More to the point it does not qualify you to make assessments on the content or nature of my thoughts, or anyone elses' for that matter. Which is what you are doing with this claim of all introverts being obsessed with themselves. Quite frankly I'd appreciate it if you didn't continue to make such claims.

If you are an introvert, then no matter what the content or nature of your thoughts is, they are directed at yourself instead of (or, at the very least, considerably more often than) towards the world. If they aren't, you simply are not an introvert, and if you call yourself such you are effectively mislabelling yourself.

Have you any evidence to this apart from your own opinion?

How about the very meaning of the terms extra- and introversion? 😛

 

[mayfever]

Well, obviously, looking inside they'll be looking at something that's part of themselves!? I don't see your point there.

Introversion, in the Jungian sense, is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life", while extroversion is "the act, state, or habit of being predominantly concerned with and obtaining gratification from what is outside the self". However, we're talking tendencies here - neither do introverts self-obsess the whole time, nor do extroverts never think about themselves. And even so, "thinking about oneself" isn't the same as being selfish and "always putting oneself first". Basically, you're saying that every introvert is a selfish bastard, but surely you can't mean that? Especially since I half remember you saying you are an introvert yourself...?

I think you're correct when you say Angel can be blamed for his tendency to make decisions over people's heads. I don't like that particular trait very much in him either, but it's got nothing to do with selfishness - someone has to make the call, and it's the bane of Angel's existence that his choices, when he makes them, tend to have disastrous consequences. Do you hate Buffy as much for what she said in "Selfless"?

"It is always different! It's always complicated. And at some point, someone has to draw the line, and that is always going to be me. You get down on me for cutting myself off, but in the end the slayer is always cut off. There's no mystical guidebook. No all-knowing council. Human rules don't apply. There's only me. I am the law."

Let's not forget that her actions have had horrible consequences, too...

And I still say his entire "love" for Buffy absolutely stinks of pathetic selfishness, too... but that's an entire different can of worms.

Let's just... not, okay? 😀

 

[Kean]

If you are an introvert, then no matter what the content or nature of your thoughts is, they are directed at yourself

By this definition the very act of thinking is synonymous with introversion.

What I find even more offensive is that you have equated introversion with selfishness and then attributed this belief to every introvert.

No, all my thoughts are not simply directed at myself. I think about politics, and music, that funny joke a friend told me last night and occasionally I will even think about the weather. Simply housing thoughts in my mind does not mean that all those thoughts are about me.

How about the very meaning of the terms extra- and introversion? 😛

That's a no, then?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

that funny joke a friend told me last night

And did you post that in our joke thread? No.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Introversion, in the Jungian sense, is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life", while extroversion is "the act, state, or habit of being predominantly concerned with and obtaining gratification from what is outside the self". However, we're talking tendencies here - neither do introverts self-obsess the whole time, nor do extroverts never think about themselves.

Agreed so far. An introvert who never thinks about himself (which you said the BHD never does, and I assume you do agree he's an introvert) is a contradiction in terms though.

And even so, "thinking about oneself" isn't the same as being selfish and "always putting oneself first". Basically, you're saying that every introvert is a selfish bastard, but surely you can't mean that? Especially since I half remember you saying you are an introvert yourself...?

Obsessed with oneself =/= selfish bastard.

As a pretty extreme introvert, I am most definitely obsessed with myself... and still I think I'm doing a halfway decent job about not being an s.b. (feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken...).

The BHD clearly shares this typical introverted self-obsession (once again, his constant brooding is enough proof of that. Extraverts do not brood). By itself, his introversion does not make him a selfish bastard. He's simply an introvert who also happens to be a jerk (or a jerk who also happens to be an introvert, make your pick 😛).

I think you're correct when you say Angel can be blamed for his tendency to make decisions over people's heads. I don't like that particular trait very much in him either, but it's got nothing to do with selfishness[...]

I could not disagree more. I think it's impossible to unselfishly make decisions over other people's heads.

Do you hate Buffy as much for what she said in "Selfless"? [...]
Let's not forget that her actions have had horrible consequences, too...

Oh, it's a selfish stance, definitely... proving that extraverts (which Buffy quite certainly is) can be selfish, too (just not obsessed with themselves, which is an entirely different thing). Other than the BHD, Buffy doesn't make a habit of this, though... especially not in combination with constant alphabetizing of her past sins without learning anything from them.

Let's just... not, okay? 😀

Kay kay. Snowball chance in hell that we'd agree on anything in that matter, anyway. 😉

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 PM ----------

By this definition the very act of thinking is synonymous with introversion.

Erm... No, it's not? Unless by "thinking", you mean more "pondering, daydreaming, or brooding"... then, yes. Extraverts don't much do that, they go out and interact with the world instead of theorizing/imagining/reminiscing about it.

What I find even more offensive is that you have equated introversion with selfishness and then attributed this belief to every introvert.

No I didn't, on either account.

No, all my thoughts are not simply directed at myself. I think about politics, and music, that funny joke a friend told me last night and occasionally I will even think about the weather. Simply housing thoughts in my mind does not mean that all those thoughts are about me.

They still are directed at yourself, even when they don't have you as a person as their topic. While you think of last nights joke, you withdraw into your memory instead of interacting with the outside world. That equals putting your inside world over the outside one, interacting with yourself instead of with your surroundings. If you habitually do that, you can rightfully be said to be obsessed with yourself.

That's a no, then?

No, that was a yes. 😛

 

[mayfever]

Agreed so far. An introvert who never thinks about himself (which you said the BHD never does, and I assume you do agree he's an introvert) is a contradiction in terms though.

Ok, sorry. I didn't mean to say Angel doesn't think about himself (which he does), I meant he doesn't think of himself first. Prepositions make all the difference. To read makes our speak English good. 😀

The BHD clearly shares this typical introverted self-obsession (once again, his constant brooding is enough proof of that. Extraverts do not brood). By itself, his introversion does not make him a selfish bastard. He's simply an introvert who also happens to be a jerk (or a jerk who also happens to be an introvert, make your pick 😛).

Fair enough, this is where we respectfully disagree and repair to our respective corners of the fandom, then. 🙂

I could not disagree more. I think it's impossible to unselfishly make decisions over other people's heads.

Well, I do think that it's possible. Same consequence applies - respective corners.

Oh, it's a selfish stance, definitely... proving that extraverts (which Buffy quite certainly is) can be selfish, too (just not obsessed with themselves, which is an entirely different thing). Other than the BHD, Buffy doesn't make a habit of this, though... especially not in combination with constant alphabetizing of her past sins without learning anything from them.

Where does Angel not learn from his past mistakes? Surely trying everything in his power to prevent his soul from going astray in that wide blue yonder again is evidence to the contrary?

Kay kay. Snowball chance in hell that we'd agree on anything in that matter, anyway. 😉

ne'er a truer word an' all that 🙂

EDIT:

They still are directed at yourself, even when they don't have you as a person as their topic. While you think of last nights joke, you withdraw into your memory instead of interacting with the outside world. That equals putting your inside world over the outside one, interacting with yourself instead of with your surroundings. If you habitually do that, you can rightfully be said to be obsessed with yourself.

But that's still every act of thinking. Do extroverts never do that?

 

[InsaneMystic]

Where does Angel not learn from his past mistakes? Surely trying everything in his power to prevent his soul from going astray in that wide blue yonder again is evidence to the contrary?

Keep watching (and reading). From stuff you haven't seen yet, I don't think the trying to not lose his soul makes such a big difference (except, you know, making him less cool, less funny, less coherent... i.e., lame. From a point of damage control? Soul, schmoul. 😛

But that's still every act of thinking. Do extroverts never do that?

A "100% pure" extravert would indeed probably "never" sit down and ponder, just as a "100% pure" introvert would "never" go out and interact. On the statistical average, intros will do most of the thinking and extras most the acting, even though the values will be quite considerably away from the 100% mark.

 

[Kean]

Extraverts don't much do that, they go out and interact with the world instead of theorizing/imagining/reminiscing about it.

I understand that there are people who behave in this manner, however, what I don't understand is how you keep making this blanket claims about whole groups of people. Claims that can't ever be backed up.

I don't know if it is your intention but to me you are gravely insulting both sides: Introverts are selfish bastards and extravert's thoughtless fools.

No I didn't, on either account.

That's how it is reading to me.

They still are directed at yourself, even when they don't have you as a person as their topic. While you think of last nights joke, you withdraw into your memory instead of interacting with the outside world. That equals putting your inside world over the outside one, interacting with yourself instead of with your surroundings. If you habitually do that, you can rightfully be said to be obsessed with yourself.

That only addresses one of the examples of types of thoughts I gave. That is just one aspect of my thoughts. Hardly enough to make claims for all of them.

Anyway, I don't accept, for a second, that thinking of the past, present or any other time, qualifies me as being self obsessed. Until you actually know me, which you don't, you aren't in a position to call me self obsessed either.


I'm going to leave it here because writing this, it has struck me how utterly pointless it is engaging in this type of conversation with you IM 😛 It is long established that our minds work in very different ways. I don't think either of us will enjoy a satisfactory outcome to this discussion. 🙂

 

[InsaneMystic]

I don't know if it is your intention but to me you are gravely insulting both sides: Introverts are selfish bastards and extravert's thoughtless fools.

Hun, it's you who's adding these judging/valuing undertones. I never did that. There's nothing bad (or good) about being obsessed with yourself, and neither is there anything bad (or good) about interacting with the world rather than thinking about it. If you see any evaluation in it, that's not really my fault.

I'm going to leave it here because writing this, it has struck me how utterly pointless it is engaging in this type of conversation with you IM 😛 It is long established that our minds work in very different ways. I don't think either of us will enjoy a satisfactory outcome to this discussion. 🙂

Yup. 😀 😛

 

[white avenger]

This is inspired bt the thread that proposed that Spike became more lame after Season 3. This is NOT a Spike/Angel debate, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Spuffy/Bangel, the question is, simply:

Do you think that Angel is more lame than Angelus, or that Angel is a less interesting character as his feelings for Buffy develop?

Just a reminder about what this thread is supposed to be concerned with...

 

[Professor Walsh]

Can someone with a precise knowledge of the English language help me out a little? In my use of the words «intro-» and «extrovert», I have thought that they are equal to what we in Norwegian call «innadvendt» (literally: «turned inwards») and «utadvendt» (literally: «turned outwards»). The way InsaneMystic uses the words, the words seem more related to what I would call «egocentric» versus «altruistic». What do the words mean in English? If this is too off-topic for the thread, feel free to send me a PM.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Can someone with a precise knowledge of the English language help me out a little? In my use of the words «intro-» and «extrovert», I have thought that they are equal to what we in Norwegian call «innadvendt» (literally: «turned inwards») and «utadvendt» (literally: «turned outwards»). The way InsaneMystic uses the words, the words seem more related to what I would call «egocentric» versus «altruistic». What do the words mean in English? If this is too off-topic for the thread, feel free to send me a PM.

Nope, "intro vs. extra" and "egoism vs. altruism" are two different concepts, you can have them in any combination.

Egocentric Intro - Someone who withdraws from the world because he doesn't give a damn about anything but himself. (e.g., my interpretation of the BHD)

Altruistic Intro - Someone spending lots of time thinking about others and about his own relationship to them, but considerably less time actually interacting with them IRL (e.g., Highschool Willow, or how mayfever and Kean see the BHD)

Egocentric Extra - Someone who's very outspoken and constantly active, without giving much thought about how he comes across to others. (e.g., Anya)

Altruistic Extra - Someone who acts to care for and/or protect others, without doing much sitting down and planning beforehand. (e.g., Buffy)

 

[Angelus Domini]

"You callin' me lame, boy?"

 

[Professor Walsh]

@InsaneMystic's rep to me:
I should have been more clear. In Norwegian, the words describe how people seem when you see them from the outside, they say nothing about how the person is thinking. A person can easily be «utadvendt» yet a masive egoist, or «innadvent» yet largely thinking about others (showing a a great level of altruism).