Is Angelus Worse Than Spike?

[Alittlegrim]

Spike didn't get his nickname because he was good at volleyball but compare this to "The Scourge of Europe." A moniker putting Angelus on the same level, at least symbolically, as the Black Plague. They are both killers with a love of violence but they have very different approches. Angelus is truly sadistic, seeing killing as a sort of art form, a trait he shares with many real-world serial killers. Spike, on the other had, seems to love violence as a general idea and sees it as an end in itself. He wants to feed without any bother and mostly leaves it at that, at least by what we have seen, and loves a good fight. He doesn't really seem to care who it is against as long as they challenge him and seems to respect those who can. Notice that his idea of a "real good day" was when he fought the Slayers. Fights which are portrayed as being basically fair and that he could have lost, particularly in the second one, there being several moments in which Wood's mother was really kicking Spike's ass. I also suspect that his respect for Joyce started when she hit him in the head with an axe to keep him away from Buffy.

 

[RachM]

Angelus is definitely worse than Spike but Spike is still a complete monster (railroad spikes through people's heads, I mean, yikes).

Angelus is a sadist, he genuinely gets off on torture, emotional, physical and sexual. Spike is a creature of violence, he gets off on the rush, the crunch, the blood and brute force.

Both vampires are truly evil beings without souls, Angelus being the more evil of the two doesn't really diminish Spike's evil nor the damage he caused.

 

[Alittlegrim]

• This is a fair point. They are both vampires who kill often horribly but I am also interested in the idea of degrees of evil, a notion I realize not everybody holds. While spike did use railroad spikes there is not record of him doing that recently, going more for a straight ahead bit and eat approach which, while it still results in death, seems to me less cruel and in an odd way more fair, giving the intended victim a fighting chance, such as when Joyce walloped him. There are characters who have escaped him. Not so much with Angelus. Perhaps a better question would be who is scarier.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Perhaps a better question would be who is scarier.

I'd rather be killed by Spike than chainsaw tortured by Angelus.

 

[Alittlegrim]

I'd rather be killed by Spike than chainsaw tortured by Angelus.

Here here!

 

[Grace]

There are characters who have escaped him. Not so much with Angelus.

I feel like most of the characters on both shows escaped Angelus at one point or another, didn't they?

 

[Alittlegrim]

The main cast yes but mostly by the skin of their teeth. I didn't mean no one did I meant I didn't happen as often or easily as with Spike.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

This question came up on tumblr and I'll just copy and paste what I said there which is my view on these two demons:

I think unfortunately as Spike’s character (as an unsouled yet neutered vampire) progressed the fandom stopped remembering how he was introduced to begin with - he was introduced as William the Bloody who would torture victims with railroad Spikes. In Fool for Love we see how much Spike loved the fight and relished in the kill to the point where it turned him on.

If we compare the actions of Angelus and Spike on the shows alone, they are pretty neck and neck. They both come into town on a killing rampage. Spike tries to kill Buffy (School Hard, Halloween, and WML) where as Angelus is interested in emotionally torturing her (and I’m sure eventually he was going to get around to killing her) but settles on killing her teacher. Angelus tortures Giles. Spike tortures Angel twice (WML, Into the Dark).

I’m really not here in a quest to defend Angelus - believe me. The demon was sick and twisted and scary. I just want to point out that Spike wasn’t out there saving puppies. I just think that Spike and Angelus were two different incarnations of evil. I think Damage does a good job of explaining between the two:

SPIKE: …for a demon… I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims.

ANGEL: I couldn’t take my eyes off them. I was only in it for the evil. It was everything to me. It was art. The destruction of a human being. I would’ve considered Dana a masterpiece.

And this leads me to my next point which is, that I do believe that the writers of the buffyverse want us to believe that Angelus’ evil is a particular brand of disturbing. It’s not that he is “more vicious” its that the way he carried out his evil deeds is more disturbing - his pleasure in torture and the joy he feels at corrupting innocent people.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Spike tortures Angel twice (WML, Into the Dark).

In WML, Drusilla tortures Angel. Spike is annoyed and mutters about how he himself does not like "foreplay". In Into the Dark, he hires someone else to do the dirty work.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

In WML, Drusilla tortures Angel. Spike is annoyed and mutters about how he himself does not like "foreplay". In Into the Dark, he hires someone else to do the dirty work.

Oh forgive me yes, he gave captured him let his crazy sire tie Angel him up and torture him slowly and painfully while he watched, and hired the sickest vamp in LA to torture him slowly and horrendously while he encouraged him.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Oh forgive me yes, he gave captured him let his crazy sire tie Angel him up and torture him slowly and painfully while he watched, and hired the sickest vamp in LA to torture him slowly and horrendously while he encouraged him.

If Spike ran around torturing people for fun, it would drastically change the way I viewed him. We rarely see him be truly cruel or sadistic. He enjoys watching Angel suffer in Into the Dark, but it is his arch nemesis and his ultimate goal is the magic ring, so I am giving him a pass 😛

 

[RachM]

If Spike ran around torturing people for fun, it would drastically change the way I viewed him. We rarely see him be truly cruel or sadistic. He enjoys watching Angel suffer in Into the Dark, but it is his arch nemesis and his ultimate goal is the magic ring, so I am giving him a pass 😛

So, Spike gets a pass on torturing a souled Angel because he himself did not actually perform the torture and even though Angel has done nothing to warrant said torture and Spike is clearly enjoying watching the torture?

Also, we see Spike act cruelly plenty of times, let's not start pretending he is something he isn't.

 

[white avenger]

Angelus is depicted as a sadistic killer who prefers to torture his victims to the point of insanity before killing them in the slowest, most painful way that his twisted mind can comprehend. His first known act after crawling out of his grave was to kill his entire family.

Spike was portrayed as a killer who went out of his way to track down the most powerful opponents he could find in order to test his skill and ferocity against them in more or less honorable combat (I've often wondered if he sought out other exceptionally powerful demon fighters, or if he was just focused on Slayers). He turned his own mother, but it was in an attempt to stop her suffering, thus, in his way of thinking, an act of mercy and even love.

Both were killers with little or no equal, each unique in their own way, and I wouldn't want to meet either of them in a dark alley.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Spike was portrayed as a killer who went out of his way to track down the most powerful opponents he could find in order to test his skill and ferocity against them in more or less honorable combat (I've often wondered if he sought out other exceptionally powerful demon fighters, or if he was just focused on Slayers). He turned his own mother, but it was in an attempt to stop her suffering, thus, in his way of thinking, an act of mercy and even love.

Sometimes - sometimes he just kills girls like this:

And I mean - Sheila is probably a badass but I wouldn't call her a powerful opponent.

 

[RachM]

Sometimes - sometimes he just kills girls like this:

And I mean - Sheila is probably a badass but I wouldn't call her a powerful opponent.

He also came for Willow in Season 4, who had no real fighting skills and whose magic was not advanced enough to fight him off. Also he was ready to slaughter a basement full of helpless humans in Lie To Me. And in Lovers Walk he brags about himself and Drusilla killing a homeless man, whom I'm guessing couldn't really fight back.

While I agree that Spike did have a thing for testing himself against powerful opponents and definitely got off on taking them down, let's not pretend that he was above killing helpless victims.

 

[Fool for Buffy]

Sometimes - sometimes he just kills girls like this:

And I mean - Sheila is probably a badass but I wouldn't call her a powerful opponent.

Drusilla kills her, actually. All Spike did was lure her back to his place and tie her up. Call that what you wish.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I’m starting to see that what Spike is... is very good at delegating his evil. Mark of a good leader. I should take notes.

 

[white avenger]

Sometimes - sometimes he just kills girls like this:

And I mean - Sheila is probably a badass but I wouldn't call her a powerful opponent.

No, she was a dumbass, and Spike didn't kill her, he fed her to Dru.

He also came for Willow in Season 4, who had no real fighting skills and whose magic was not advanced enough to fight him off.

He was trying to provoke Buffy by killing one of her best friends.

While I agree that Spike did have a thing for testing himself against powerful opponents and definitely got off on taking them down, let's not pretend that he was above killing helpless victims.

I never meant to imply that Spike ONLY killed powerful fighters. If he did that, he would have starved to death. Spike never avoided a fight. He pretty much said that when Angelus had him, Darla, and Dru hiding in that coal mine.

Angelus was a certainly powerful fighter, I'm not denying him that, but he avoided fighting, preferring intimidation, torture, and rape. Spike reveled in combat, even to the point of recklessness.

 

[Alittlegrim]

So, Spike gets a pass on torturing a souled Angel because he himself did not actually perform the torture and even though Angel has done nothing to warrant said torture and Spike is clearly enjoying watching the torture?

Also, we see Spike act cruelly plenty of times, let's not start pretending he is something he isn't.

This is a fair point. Like I said, I am thinking of relative evil and recognize that both Spike and Angelus are bad. Which is why I specifically used the term "worse" in the title. Just so I am clear about that.
 

Angelus is depicted as a sadistic killer who prefers to torture his victims to the point of insanity before killing them in the slowest, most painful way that his twisted mind can comprehend. His first known act after crawling out of his grave was to kill his entire family.

Spike was portrayed as a killer who went out of his way to track down the most powerful opponents he could find in order to test his skill and ferocity against them in more or less honorable combat (I've often wondered if he sought out other exceptionally powerful demon fighters, or if he was just focused on Slayers). He turned his own mother, but it was in an attempt to stop her suffering, thus, in his way of thinking, an act of mercy and even love.

Both were killers with little or no equal, each unique in their own way, and I wouldn't want to meet either of them in a dark alley.

This is pretty much what I was thinking. Don't meant to down play the evil done by either of them. It just seems to me that Spike is a lot more direct, in terms of being blunt, and honest about what he is. He has none of the illusions about "good kills" and "pure artistry" as espoused by Angelus in the flashback scene in "Fool For Love". He just likes to fight and will take any and all comers with no need to sneak about and act all sinister. Hence his delight when he finds out he can still hurt other demons even with his chip. I wouldn't want to meet either of them either but if I had a choice I would prefer Spike in a one on one. He is more likely to just come at me directly, kill me quickly and most likely to be persuaded to turn me rather than outright kill me. From a strictly functionalist perspective this would be preferable.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

So, Spike gets a pass on torturing a souled Angel because he himself did not actually perform the torture and even though Angel has done nothing to warrant said torture and Spike is clearly enjoying watching the torture?

Also, we see Spike act cruelly plenty of times, let's not start pretending he is something he isn't.

I'm very good at pretending.

Spike's brand of evil is mostly stomachable to me. Angelus brings out a stronger reaction from me, even though they are equally destructive. Spike derives his power as a character from his ambiguity and insidious appeal.