Is Angelus Worse Than Spike?

[flow]

Are there really different degrees of evil ? I mean, stealing cigarettes is probably less evil than murdering. But once you have killed more than ten thousand humans - which both easily have - is there really a better or worse ?

I admit, that would personally prefer a quick neck snap to being tortured to death. But although the first is less painful, can you really say, it is less evil ?
I also want to point out, that spike raised a orphanage and killed a little girl, that was hiding in a coal bin. It wasn't all about the fight for him.

As rape has been mentioned, I would like to know, if it is ever confirmed, that one of them did ever rape a victim. I don't remember that, but I haven't watched all seasons of AtS so far.

flow

 

[Taake]

As rape has been mentioned, I would like to know, if it is ever confirmed, that one of them did ever rape a victim. I don't remember that, but I haven't watched all seasons of AtS so far.

flow

Also interested.
I think it's more insinuated, because they're soulless and evil so the reasoning goes why wouldn't they? I can't remember it is actively stated that they rape, so much as kill indiscriminately and well, obviously torture people. I think they say stuff like "we've done worse" or things to that effect, but can't recall any direct rape statements. (Unless one takes things like Angelus biting the inside of the gypsy girl's thigh in 5x5 as rape...)

 

[thrasherpix]

I definitely got the impression rape was stated, or so close that it might as well been, in a flashback scene of Darla and Angelus where the gypsy girl was a prisoner, though maybe I figured it would just be obvious (that is, it beggars belief that it wouldn't include that, especially if they're so much worst than the rest) combined with other aspects of the show (like Angelus threatening to rape Fred--and I'm not going to assume the best possible interpretation for Angelus just to be kind to Angel). It's too early for me to remember it clearly. Maybe someone else could name the episode.

They sure had Angelus talk about it enough as a threat in Angel season 4, though it's strangely absent in Buffy. Maybe there were rules and regulations involved for the time, channels it was aired on, target audience, etc.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

There was also the bride in Destiny. Angelus offered her to Spike but Spike turned him down in order to spend more time with Dru. When Spike came back and saw Angelus having sex with someone, he thought it was the bride and said "good for you, mate" before it was revealed to be Drusilla. Add in the gypsy girl, and I would say that Angelus most likely did rape. If he raped Dru as well before siring her (her "snake in the woodshed" line) as suggested by other people, then that makes their "relationship" even more messed up than it already is.

 

[EarthLogic]

It's never outright stated, but definitely implied at times (except Angelus' explicit threat to Fred in AtS, which tbh I found rather OOC because it was so crass and so not very chilling at all. It was still gross but also made me roll my eyes), which is what makes it so disturbing. I think we can assume it was part of what he did to Dru. It's also implied in the sexual nature of his biting the gypsy girl. Angelus himself insinuates that it's what he did to Holtz's wife: 'You're wife, she kept repeating on us. Of course you know, I repeated on her a few times myself'. (*s'cuse me while I go throw up*).

I always assumed Spike, and even Darla, may have done their fair share of rape, since they were monsters who enjoyed inflicting pain after all, it's just they might not have made it a frequent part of their MO like Angelus. With Spike the suggestion is there in 'Never Leave Me': 'You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they'll still cry when you— (chokes up) 'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry.'...'You wanna know what I've done to girls Dawn's age?'. Human Darla has no problem having sex with a unaware Angel in S2 so I'd assume vampire Darla may have seduced and tortured her victims similarly, although it seems most of the time she gets off on watching Angelus do it, which is also all kinds of disturbing.

 

[Alittlegrim]

Are there really different degrees of evil ? I mean, stealing cigarettes is probably less evil than murdering. But once you have killed more than ten thousand humans - which both easily have - is there really a better or worse ?

I admit, that would personally prefer a quick neck snap to being tortured to death. But although the first is less painful, can you really say, it is less evil ?
I also want to point out, that spike raised a orphanage and killed a little girl, that was hiding in a coal bin. It wasn't all about the fight for him.

As rape has been mentioned, I would like to know, if it is ever confirmed, that one of them did ever rape a victim. I don't remember that, but I haven't watched all seasons of AtS so far.

flow

It depends on the moral system one is using. From a purely humanist perspecive killing is killing and all exactly the same. From a functionalist perspective a neck snap is much better than slow torture in that it hurts less and is therefore less cruel. This ties into the idea of "mercy killing" which some argue does not exist and a "quick, clean death" which I have heard espoused as a good thing. It could be argued that even killing over ten thousand humans has its degrees of neuance depending on the context, whose blood is spilled, how and why being important factors. It is true it is not all about the fight for Spike. It is about the violence but he goes about it in a more honest way, admitting that this is the case.

 

[Grace]

It is true it is not all about the fight for Spike. It is about the violence but he goes about it in a more honest way, admitting that this is the case.

Sometimes. And sometimes Angelus just snaps his victims' necks, too. I would say that Angelus overall is depicted as worse in terms of his preferred methods. But I think neither Spike nor Angelus' behavior can be categorized as neatly as people like to think.

 

[Alittlegrim]

This is a fair point.

 

[flow]

Unless one takes things like Angelus biting the inside of the gypsy girl's thigh in 5x5 as rape...

That is what I meant. It is implied, it is very heavily suggested. But in the inner thigh there is the second largest artery of a human, so he could just have been feeding as well. It is ambigous and I think it is done that way deliberately, though I don`t know, if the reason for that were restrictions or just that the writers wanted to confuse us.

Angelus himself insinuates that it's what he did to Holtz's wife:

I did not know that line. That really is gross. But it could still be just something Angel makes up,to verbally attack Holtz.

Spike the suggestion is there in 'Never Leave Me':

Yes, and again it is still ambigious, as he is talking about blood. And as Angel might have wanted to enrage Holtz, Spike here clearly wants to get Buffy to stake him.

flow

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But in the inner thigh there is the second largest artery of a human,

That was the whole premise of Once Bitten, Twice Shy.

 

[EarthLogic]

It is ambigous and I think it is done that way deliberately, though I don`t know, if the reason for that were restrictions or just that the writers wanted to confuse us.

I don't think the writers want to confuse us. It may be a case of what the network will allow to be made explicit - for example the original 2nd episode for AtS was shelved because the network thought it far too dark with all the drugs and prostitution. So we know there is a limit to what they will allow to air. But given that Angelus' rape remark is allowed through by WB, as is the AR, I do think the ambiguity was more an artistic decision. The writers give us give us enough to make the assumption, which means they don't have to make anything explicit. It's creepier that way because the viewer is forced to fill in the blanks and imagine the horrors. The mere suggestion is enough to convey the depths of a character's depravity.

Yes, and again it is still ambigious, as he is talking about blood. And as Angel might have wanted to enrage Holtz, Spike here clearly wants to get Buffy to stake him.

I don't think Angelus was lying. Holtz would have seen his wife's body and there was probably enough evidence to confirm it. I think it was deliberate on Angelus' part because he knew how it would horrify Holtz - remember he goes for what causes the most psychological/emotional pain, so when they meet again Angelus is taunting him knowing that it will hurt him.

Yes Spike is trying to get Buffy to kill him, but I don't think he was lying. He feels the weight of his soul acutely at this point so it makes sense for him to be horrified by the reality of what he has done in the past, and for that to be enught to make him think he deserves to be killed.

 

[TriBel]

That is what I meant. It is implied, it is very heavily suggested. But in the inner thigh there is the second largest artery of a human, so he could just have been feeding as well. It is ambigous and I think it is done that way deliberately, though I don`t know, if the reason for that were restrictions or just that the writers wanted to confuse us.

As far as I'm aware, vampires are orally fixated (the psychosexual matching with the fact they've traditionally represented the Id). They find pleasure in biting and sucking so penetration by a vampire's teeth would also qualify, IMO, as rape. They're not just feeding - they're sating their lust.

Yes, and again it is still ambigious, as he is talking about blood. And as Angel might have wanted to enrage Holtz, Spike here clearly wants to get Buffy to stake him.

See above. That said, I was never convinced by this statement. I think at this stage he thinks it's an uphill task and he wants out. He thinks she'll never love him and Thanatos - the death drive - has overcome Eros - the life instinct. It's the life instinct that's sparked with her "I believe in you Spike". It's what gets him through the torture and could explain why his sweater in Potentials has feathers on it (Eros is winged).
(PS. The shooting script is quite telling. It contains this line: "A man who -- even when he had no soul -- struggled to find redemption". I can see why they cut it).

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

IMHO, Spike was tainted by humanity, whereas Angelus was not, and was servant only to the demonic will animating him. This is best explained in becoming part 2.

 

[thetopher]

Simply put- it depends on how you see Spike.

Angelus is evil, unquestionably, even other vampires (except for Darla) never really liked him because he was just unpleasent to be around. He was a bully and a sadist and a user and unpredictable.
Spike...a guy could probably have a beer with Spike- if the vampire was in the right mood. He liked violence and brutality and being strong and killing but not really the pain and suffering of his victims; he didn't think about that as much as Angelus.

But of course if Spike is a 'super-special vampire' who had a residue of a soul inside him all along- as is implied by canon- then its Spike that's the true monster, given that he had more leeway than Angelus but still did what he did; all those deaths.

Angelus was uncomplicated, an avatar of evil that Angel feels ashamed by and takes pains to differentiate himself from (in pretty much all forms) but Spike doesn't; Spike kinda likes who he was before; slayer of slayers and all-round badass

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Angelus was worse than Spike, in regards to being evil. I always got the feeling that Angelus really, really ENJOYED torturing and terrifying people...the killing was more of an afterthought, an anticlimax. His sadistic mind games, and the was he gleefully caused agony....Spike was bad but he was more of a braggart. He liked to show off, he wanted everyone to WITNESS his misdeeds. Angelus didn't care who was around, he was just a sadistic bastard.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

But of course if Spike is a 'super-special vampire' who had a residue of a soul inside him all along- as is implied by canon- then its Spike that's the true monster, given that he had more leeway than Angelus but still did what he did; all those deaths

How is Spike special and where is it implied he has a residue of a soul? The Judge says he stinks of humanity, but he says that of Dru, too. Does Dru have a soul? This humanity is describes as affection and jealousy? Does feeling affection and jealousy make Spike more responsible for his actions?

Spike, Dru, Darla, Harmony, James, Elizabeth and even the Master all seem to have this humanity. Angelus is the only vampire without a single likeable quality. He is the super special one.

Angelus was uncomplicated, an avatar of evil that Angel feels ashamed by and takes pains to differentiate himself from (in pretty much all forms) but Spike doesn't; Spike kinda likes who he was before; slayer of slayers and all-round badass

Spike is clearly ambivalent about himself once he gets a soul. The only way to get on his feet again is to become 'Spike' again. Spike fought impossible odds to win the love of a woman, so it is a useful persona to adopt, considering the stakes in S7. Angel had to build himself up from scratch, because there was nothing about Angelus that was redeemable.

 

[flow]

But of course if Spike is a 'super-special vampire' who had a residue of a soul inside him all along- as is implied by canon- then its Spike that's the true monster, given that he had more leeway than Angelus but still did what he did; all those deaths.

I second WillowFromBuffy, that we have seen traits of the human personality in every vampire - even in Angelus. How else could he have been brought to tears by watching Giselle, if not for residual human emotions ?

Why would Spike need a soul, if he still had a residue of a soul ? How can you cut a soul in pieces ? And if the soul makes you evil, than Faith would be worse than both of them, because she always had her soul - whole and complete and yet - all those deaths.....

flow

 

[Skanky Vamp]

In a darkened alley I would not have as much fear of Spike as I would Angelus. I think Spike you could buy him a pint and get him bitching and moaning about some skirt wronged him at one point or another and he'd forget to eat you. In addition to having retained some of his humanity as others have mentioned, he was also pretty forthright and honest. As far as vampires goes.

 

[thetopher]

How is Spike special and where is it implied he has a residue of a soul?

I mis-spoke a bit; it isn't implied by the show so-much as out-right stated by the writers that Spike is unique; 'soul residue' is pure fanon without any in-show explanation to back it up.Therefore it doesn't exist. In my view Spike isn't special.

But Joss and Marti and co? Oh, they think he's super-special, that's why I was making the point.

Spike, Dru, Darla, Harmony, James, Elizabeth and even the Master all seem to have this humanity. Angelus is the only vampire without a single likeable quality. He is the super special one.

Angelus clearly appreciated the arts and the finer things in life, he was also a vampire of great ambitions (stemming from father issues no doubt) and he had a fondness for Darla. So ambition and asthetic tastes are both admirable qualities. I guess.

Drusilla seemed to have a thing for children/innocents, The Master killed wanotonly, and in the Wishverse wanted to introduce factory-produced genocide to vampire kind, Darla was devious plotter...

Basically all vampires are horrible in different ways, but yeah Angelus seemed especially ambitious when it came to being a evil bugger. I wouldn't call him super-special, the curse/soul thing is what made Angel unique- in-show explanation.

Spike is clearly ambivalent about himself once he gets a soul.

I say kinda likes, you say ambivelent. Potato Potarto. He feels bad about some stuff. For a while. But he clearly enjoys other aspects of his rep even post-soul.

And he goes on-and-on about how he won his soul....which was pre-soul, so yeah, Spike thinks Spike is pretty great, pre and post-soul.

Spike fought impossible odds to win the love of a woman, so it is a useful persona to adopt, considering the stakes in S7.

And in Angel S5 he's still clearly proud of having offed a couple of slayers...watch 'Damage'.

 

[Alittlegrim]

In a darkened alley I would not have as much fear of Spike as I would Angelus. I think Spike you could buy him a pint and get him bitching and moaning about some skirt wronged him at one point or another and he'd forget to eat you. In addition to having retained some of his humanity as others have mentioned, he was also pretty forthright and honest. As far as vampires goes.

This was partly my thinking. He is evil in an objective sense but goes about it in a different way than most. I agree that he could be diverted and even reasoned with.