Is Buffy too forgiving?

[Chosen Enemy]

I noticed Buffy has the tendency to forgive too easily.

She forgives Angel, Spike, Willow, Faith, Giles, Xander and more.
So many people have done wrong to her, yet she forgave them.

Do you think she's too forgiving?

 

[Ms.Trick]

Most of the things she forgave I understand but there are some points were I thought she was a bit too forgiving.

Like with Faith. I know I could never, ever forgive someone who tried to kill my lover, my friends, then took possession of my body and had sex with my boyfriend and then tried to kill my mum. I just don't think I could really forgive that.

And also with Spike and the AR. I was seriously surprised that she seemed to forgive that quite easily.

I think it might be due to what Giles told her in "I only have eyes for you". At that time, she thought the ghost didn't deserve forgiveness for killing his girlfriend. Then Giles told her that "you don't forgive people because they deserve it, but because they need it". And I think that when Angelus turned back to Angel and she had to kill him and he came back, she understood better what Giles meant. Angelus had put her through so much, and yet, she forgave. Everything.

 

[WileyDairyGnome]

I've noticed this too.

I think maybe Buffy forgives "easily" because she likes things to be um, I guess normal. She already has a bunch of shitty stuff going on in her life, the last thing she needs is to have drama between her friends, I think she just likes to forgive and forget and move on.

 

[Kean]

There is no such thing as being too forgiving. The greatest gift Buffy has is her forgiving heart. It is her saving grace.

 

[sisterofmercy]

There is no such thing as being too forgiving. The greatest gift Buffy has is her forgiving heart. It is her saving grace.

I agree. It's part of what makers her different from the other slayers, her heart is overflowing with love. Therefore she's going to be more forgiving towards those she cares for. Part of me wonders whether there was also the underlying fear that if she didn't forgive them then she'd end up alone like the other slayers and therefore weaker as well.

 

[Kean]

I agree. It's part of what makers her different from the other slayers, her heart is overflowing with love. Therefore she's going to be more forgiving towards those she cares for. Part of me wonders whether there was also the underlying fear that if she didn't forgive them then she'd end up alone like the other slayers and therefore weaker as well.

I think there is a genuine question there, but I can't help but feel if it was true, and Buffy's forgiveness was selfishly given, she would be a very bitter woman. And I really don't think she is.

Even with Faith, the one person that she has struggled to forgive, Buffy has found a way to make a general peace with her. Albeit, a sometimes uneasy one.

 

[white avenger]

There is no such thing as being too forgiving. The greatest gift Buffy has is her forgiving heart. It is her saving grace.

I agree, as long as one doesn't become dangerously, blindly, trusting in addition to all of that forgiveness. Something like Angel told Connor. "You're my son, and I love you, now get the hell out of my house." Not EXACTLY the same thing, but close enough for an example, and she DID begin to learn that by the end of the televised series. In Season 5, Giles (rightly) killed Ben, not because Buffy would forgive him, but because she would then almost certainly lose all distrust for someone who she saw as no longer a threat. In Season 7, yes, she did forgive Spike practically the instant that she discovered that he had a soul, but she didn't bring him into her home immediately, she put him somewhere where, she fully believed, he would be unable to harm Xander because of the chip. Then, when she DID finally bring him into her own home, it was under restraint and careful watch. Spike didn't get full run of the house until several weeks later, once Buffy was as certain as possible that he could be trusted. Then, at the end of Season 8, she forgave Angel for being Twilight, but specifically said that she did NOT trust him anymore. Buffy's learning. It just took awhile.

I do wish that she would be a little more trusting of Faith, though...

 

[Tome]

I don't think I could have put it any better than how Kean did. That is one of the reasons I love her so much. 🙂 Also, I usually agreed with her when she forgave someone.

 

[caitaintdead]

I don't know if it's the catholic in me coming out here but I'm a big believer in forgiving people for the things that they have done wrong. I would always hope that friends and family and lovers would forgive me for something I have done wrong if I truly understand what I have done and feel remorse.

Also, I believe that holding onto feelings of hatred makes us weaker, and Buffy needs to be strong and focussed at all times. In a way I feel like other peoples mistakes should not be a burden on us so we should just forgive them.

 

[StarSlayer]

I don't think Buffy is too forgiving. I think she's willing to forgive, and that's a big difference.

Buffy is full of love. She'll give a person a chance to "make amends," but the other person must also do their part. When Buffy sees a real change or knows someone is trying to be a good person, I think she's more willing to forgive.

Yet, in some cases, I think it's hard for Buffy to forget, like with Faith, with Spike in the beginning of s7, and with Angel in s8. She may be willing to forgive, but it's hard to forget. It just takes time.

 

[sisterofmercy]

I agree, as long as one doesn't become dangerously, blindly, trusting in addition to all of that forgiveness. Something like Angel told Connor. "You're my son, and I love you, now get the hell out of my house." Not EXACTLY the same thing, but close enough for an example, and she DID begin to learn that by the end of the televised series. In Season 5, Giles (rightly) killed Ben, not because Buffy would forgive him, but because she would then almost certainly lose all distrust for someone who she saw as no longer a threat. In Season 7, yes, she did forgive Spike practically the instant that she discovered that he had a soul, but she didn't bring him into her home immediately, she put him somewhere where, she fully believed, he would be unable to harm Xander because of the chip. Then, when she DID finally bring him into her own home, it was under restraint and careful watch. Spike didn't get full run of the house until several weeks later, once Buffy was as certain as possible that he could be trusted. Then, at the end of Season 8, she forgave Angel for being Twilight, but specifically said that she did NOT trust him anymore. Buffy's learning. It just took awhile.

I do wish that she would be a little more trusting of Faith, though...

Yeah but with Faith it was a little too close to home. Faith was like what Buffy would have been like if the worst happened. By allowing herself to forgive her fully it would be like she's allowing herself to think it's ok to sink to that level, if that makes sense. It's late here so I'm not sure I've expressed myself fully.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Buffy has a great capacity to forgive. As [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] put it, it's one of her greatest gifts.

However, I'd argue that if you examine each individual case in which Buffy forgave, (or most of the major ones, anyway), it's clear that Buffy puts each "transgression" into context. Who did it, what were they going through, and what did they do to make it up to her?

Angel: It's not as if he knew that the "moment of happiness" would cost him his soul. Of course she forgave him.
When he left? He did it for her own good, so that she could have a normal life. Hard to deal with, especially for an 18 year old girl? Sure. Forgivable? Absolutely.

Anya: Was so remorseful after killing those frat boys, she was willing to sacrifice her life in order to take it back. Absolutely worthy of forgiveness. Not a stretch, there.

Riley: Sure, he was dishonest, at the end of their relationship. But he did nothing to hurt her--quite the contrary. He loved her, wanted to take care of her. He was feeling neglected. At first, she must have felt completely betrayed. But after time and reflection? Forgiveness came naturally.

Willow: Had she tried to destroy the world under any circumstance other a complete loss of control and will to live-- inspired by the death of the love of her life-- maybe Buffy wouldn't have forgiven her. And we wouldn't have been surprised. Not the case, here.

Spike: Buffy didn't truly forgive Spike until she became aware of what he'd gone through, in an effort to atone. To be a good man. His ultimate transgression (arguably, against her), resulted in a transformation for the better. For her benefit. As she told him, "You faced the monster inside and you fought back." Sounds like forgiveness wasn't hard to come by in that context.

Faith might be a bit of an exception here. She doesn't do anything in particular to atone, at least not where Buffy is directly concerned. There are no apologies, and, as Buffy sees it, no real excuses for what she did. But does Buffy really forgive her? She welcomes her into her home in season 7, somewhat reluctantly, because she needs another warrior. She doesn't have time for vendettas. I think when Faith is nearly killed after leading those girls into battle, Buffy feels a true kinship with her. And there is a glimmer in her eyes that suggests forgiveness.

Buffy has the ability to put everything into context. To evaluate more than just the deed, but the circumstances surrounding it. She's no fool; she won't be walked all over and taken advantage of. But given the right circumstances and enough repentance, she'll sympathize and forgive. That takes true maturity and heart. She's a hell of a woman.

 

[Kean]

I don't know if it's the catholic in me coming out here but I'm a big believer in forgiving people for the things that they have done wrong. I would always hope that friends and family and lovers would forgive me for something I have done wrong if I truly understand what I have done and feel remorse.

Also, I believe that holding onto feelings of hatred makes us weaker, and Buffy needs to be strong and focussed at all times. In a way I feel like other peoples mistakes should not be a burden on us so we should just forgive them.

I could not agree more.

There's an old proverb I love, He who seeks vengence must dig two graves: one for his enemy and one for himself.

To forgive someone, to let go of all the poisonous feelings you harbour for someone is the most wonderful feeling in the world. At the end of the day, what good is hating someone or something doing for you?

When Buffy sees a real change or knows someone is trying to be a good person, I think she's more willing to forgive.

That is very interesting. I think perhaps, for Buffy, forgiving Faith is harder because in Buffy's eyes she is still taking everything from her.

While I think Faith is not doing it intentionally, now, she continues to come into Buffy's life and usurp Buffy's role, and often her closest relationships. In Season 3 Faith makes it clear that she came to Sunnydale to be The Slayer and have the gang and everything that goes with it.

In S4, again she comes to Sunnydale with sole intent of taking Buffy's life from her.

In S7, she comes back, and even though she wasn't trying to, she took Buffy's role as the leader. The Potentials looked to her, liked her better. The Scoobies essentially chose Faith over Buffy in Empty Places.

Major Spoilers fro S8 & S9

Spoiler

In S8, again Faith takes Giles. He and Buffy are estranged and he becomes Faith's mentor. Even going so far as trying to kill Buffy. And in his will, Giles leaves practically everything he has to Faith. Now, we are told there is more to this and Buffy is left with something more significant than we know, but I can't imagine it feels that way to Buffy.

And in S9 Faith is going to be Angel's closest friend and ally. Right now this looks like a choice but it is still Faith encroaching on roles and relationships of Buffy's.

So, I absolutely agree that Buffy gives her forgiveness to those she believes will work for it, those who really try. And while the audience can see Faith doing just that, to Buffy, I think she still feels that redemption or not, Faith is still taking everything from her.

 

[Icarium]

There is no such thing as being too forgiving.

Yes, there is, when you happen to be judge, jury and executioner. Buffy giving a million chances to everybody and their dog ended up harming innocent people again and again. And it would have hurt many more if the writers didn't bail out Buffy so often like with The First mind controlling Spike, something it couldn't do with anybody else for some arcane reason and turned to be merely a way to portray Spike as a victim and show us how much Buffy trusts him (excuse me while i vomit), or Anya's victims getting revived by her D'Hoffryn or Faith genuinely reforming in jail, instead of escaping and continuing to kill people.

 

[Kean]

Yes, there is, when you happen to be judge, jury and executioner. Buffy giving a million chances to everybody and their dog ended up harming innocent people again and again. And it would have hurt many more if the writers didn't bail out Buffy so often like with The First mind controlling Spike (Something it couldn't do with anybody else for some arcane reason), or Anya's victims getting revived by her D'Hoffryn.

No, that cannot be put on Buffy because both those people had the power to do the right thing and chose not to do. Anya didn't have to become a Vengeance Demon again. She didn't have to kill those lads. Especially when she knew it was wrong. Spike didn't have to stay in that basement, he didn't even have to stay in Sunnydale, regardless of what Buffy asked him to do, he knew he was a threat and he had the full capability of leaving and he didn't.

Buffy's forgiveness is not equal to her causing more destruction. It gives people a fresh start; what they do with it is on them.

 

[Icarium]

Sure, we should blame the culprits a lot more than Buffy but in cases where it's very obvious that there is a high chance of somebody getting back to killing people, it's incredibly irresponsible to let them go anyway. Like say with Vamp Willow or Glory or Anyanka 2.0. If a judge lets a serial killer go free, I doubt anyone would accept that, especially if the killer strikes once again. I would call such a behavior playing with people's lives, something I find completely unacceptable for somebody who is supposed be humanity's greatest protector from demons and the likes. And the worst thing is ,Buffy doesn't learn from her mistakes and continues to operate in the same fashion even in S8 with Dracula and Twilight and maybe other villains that I am forgetting right now,

 

[Kean]

Sure, we should blame the culprits a lot more than Buffy but in cases where it's very obvious that there is a high chance of somebody getting back to killing people, it's incredibly irresponsible to let them go anyway. Like say with Vamp Willow or Glory or Anyanka 2.0. If a judge lets a serial killer go free, I doubt anyone would accept that, especially if the killer strikes once again. I would call such a behavior playing with people's lives, something I find completely unacceptable for somebody who is supposed be humanity's greatest protector from demons and the likes. And the worst thing is ,Buffy doesn't learn from her mistakes and continues to operate in the same fashion even in S8 with Dracula and Twilight and maybe other villains that I am forgetting right now,

Is she really prepared for that though? Is it even her job. I know she says it is in Selfless, but when you look at the Slayer and her role, traditionally she had just been the executioner. Whether the whoever or whatever she was killing were actually guilty or deserving death was never her decision to make. Her job was just to kill them.

Since Buffy has come along the black and white world of demons and slaying has gotten progressively grayer. Does that mean that the whole way in which the system operates should change? For instance, should there be a "Supernatural Court System"?

I mean, does Dark Willow deserve death? Anya? Spike? Angel? Demons and supernatural beings who have shown the ability and dedication to being good, should their be a better way then just killing them?

 

[Icarium]

Is she really prepared for that though? Is it even her job. I know she says it is in Selfless, but when you look at the Slayer and her role, traditionally she had just been the executioner. Whether the whoever or whatever she was killing were actually guilty or deserving death was never her decision to make. Her job was just to kill them.

Since Buffy has come along the black and white world of demons and slaying has gotten progressively grayer. Does that mean that the whole way in which the system operates should change? For instance, should there be a "Supernatural Court System"?

I mean, does Dark Willow deserve death? Anya? Spike? Angel? Demons and supernatural beings who have shown the ability and dedication to being good, should their be a better way then just killing them?

Buffy didn't have to be the judge, she could have chosen to defer to Giles, The Council or whoever commanded the Initiative's successor organization. She chooses to trusts her own judgements, so it's only fair we blame her when they blow right in her face.

 

[Kean]

Buffy didn't have to be the judge, she could have chosen to defer to Giles, The Council or whoever commanded the Initiative's successor organization. She chooses to trusts her own judgements, so it's only fair we blame her when they blow right in her face.

Well then that is a matter of whether we, the audience, are too forgiving of her or not.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Maybe. But that's one of her better qualities.