IS Spike unique in his humanity

[Irish Spike]

I was thinking. When Angelus got his soul his personality went through a major shift, sadist to distraught, to mean and moody, back to distraught and finally champion. But Spike's personality went guilty for a few months then back to badass. And I was thinking, is this because even before he got his soul he was more human then other vampires. He killed his mother, not for the usual reason a vampire kills their family but because he thought it would make her well. He really regretted staking her. He was in an actual committed relationship, on his side. Going by Angelus's statements in Destiny doesn't seem like that's common. He wasn't interested in being like Angelus, with a vision. He just wantd day by day life. Maybe, his personality remained the same because he was more human then other vampires. Which would make him more evil in a way, since he'd be able to have more fun with that when he killed them.

 

[nerd4hire]

There is all that "humanity" stuff concerning The Judge from Surprise and Innocence, isn't there?

Giles: The more I study the Judge, the less I like him. His touch can
literally burn the humanity out of you. A true creature of evil can
survive the process. No human ever has.

then

The Judge steps out of his box. He has difficulty keeping his balance.
He points at Drusilla.

Judge: You!

Spike: (rolls over to him in Dru's defense) Ho, ho, ho. What's that,
mate?

Judge: You two stink of humanity. You share affection and jealousy.

finally

Spike: (to the Judge) Don't just stand there. Burn him.

Angelus: Gee, maybe he's broken.

Spike: (to Drusilla) What the hell is going on?

Drusilla's face takes on a look of realization.

Judge: This one... cannot be burnt. He is clean. (removes his hand)

Spike: Clean? You mean, he's...

Judge: There's no humanity in him. (turns and goes)

Some vamps do seem more demon than others. With Harmony it's like the whole demon thing just didn't take.

I always felt Spike's badass persona after the soul was more a front.

 

[Irish Spike]

Up until that episode about the creation of the original slayer, I'd agree. After, he went badass, but good guy badass.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Spike did seem to have been more Human then the other vamps, not wanting to kill him mum.

But if you look at season 2 spike he is pretty badass, then when he gets the chip he slowly develops to a point where when he gets a soul, he isn't much different from before.

Then we seems clips of his past in season 7 and he is nowhere near as badass as he was in season 3, I personally think it was a little inconsistency

 

[Irish Spike]

I guess if I was around for more then a hundred years, my personality might change a few times.

 

[Lyri]

i think his personality changed from the time when he got the chip. he was slowly beginning to look at the Scoobies as...well, not friends, exactly, but co-workers maybe? and he was falling in love with Buffy, so by the time he got his soul back, he was no different than chipped Spike, but different from Pre-chipped Spike. get it?

that actually brings up another point. vampires, according to many sources in the shows, Daral, Angel etc, vampires aren't supposed to be capable of love. so how were Spike and Drusilla able to be in love? how was it possible for Spike to fall in love with Buffy?

 

[Irish Spike]

I was watching the commentary on LMPT(S7). And Whedon says that it helps emphasis the fact Spike is more human then he seems.

As for friends...first person he considered tht I'd say was Fred.

 

[nerd4hire]

that actually brings up another point. vampires, according to many sources in the shows, Daral, Angel etc, vampires aren't supposed to be capable of love. so how were Spike and Drusilla able to be in love? how was it possible for Spike to fall in love with Buffy?

Well, there is something some vampires think of as love, and they do think they're capable of it. Spike makes that clear in Fool for Love. Drusilla outright says it in Crush. Then there's James and Elizabeth in Heartthrob. Lyle Gorch gets married. Even if you go past romantic love, why does Spike vamp his mom, if he doesn't feel something for her?

I'm trying to think of the bits where vampires say they're not capable of love. They're not coming to me. Where are they?

Edit

I just thought of something else. Spike obviously had some kind of sincere feeling for Joyce in his chipped days. What was that?

 

[Irish Spike]

Spike is a complicated little fecker.

 

[Lyri]

I'm trying to think of the bits where vampires say they're not capable of love. They're not coming to me. Where are they?

the bit that's sticking in my mind is Darla, during her pregnancy, she feels loves towards Connor, and she says something along the lines of 'i'm not supposed to love it'
there's another one that i just can't get right now. i'll come back to it.

but you're right, there are a ton of examples of vampires 'in love'. but were any of them the same love that Spike felt for Buffy? before he got his soul back. i mean, he REALLY fell in love with her...or at least, what passed in Spike's head for love.
maybe that's it. maybe all vampires are capable of love, but because they're supposed to be evil, they think they're not supposed to love. but then, this brings us back to, does Spike love more because he has more humanity than other vampires?
it's a visious circle!

 

[Irish Spike]

Spike is definetly a bit of a freak.

Darla pregnant was a good idea, the wa she shraed the soul, even if I think Connor is a poor character

 

[watcher1006]

I just thought of something else. Spike obviously had some kind of sincere feeling for Joyce in his chipped days. What was that?

I've always thought that the Spike character raised the question what it means not to have a soul.

It's funny that although their first encounter was her bashing him on the head in "School Hard", it always seemed Joyce always liked Spike more than she liked Angel, whether the latter had a soul or not.

The soul-less Spike was never as evil as Angelus, after all he made the deal with Buffy at the end of Season 2. Partly to get Drusilla back but also, as he told Buffy, the idea of sucking the world into a hell dimension just didn't appeal to him.

And I don't see how anyone can honestly claim that the soul-less Spike had no humanity in him. How could someone with no humanity weep so bitterly over Buffy's body at the end of "The Gift"?

 

[Rayne]

Spike is awesome. He's definately not like all other vampires. His emotions run warm...human...he's absolutely one of a kind.

 

[alexa]

Spike is awesome, he's grown on me a lot. But it is weird how he's not completely evil like other vampires.. maybe it's just like how not all demons are evil.. like Lorne etc. Oh well I guess it's not logical so much as a good plot device, as was making Angel/Angelus so different.

 

[Rayne]

He's the champion!!! 😀

That would be cool. 🙂

 

[PhenixRising]

the bit that's sticking in my mind is Darla, during her pregnancy, she feels loves towards Connor, and she says something along the lines of 'i'm not supposed to love it'
there's another one that i just can't get right now. i'll come back to it.

but you're right, there are a ton of examples of vampires 'in love'. but were any of them the same love that Spike felt for Buffy? before he got his soul back. i mean, he REALLY fell in love with her...or at least, what passed in Spike's head for love.
maybe that's it. maybe all vampires are capable of love, but because they're supposed to be evil, they think they're not supposed to love. but then, this brings us back to, does Spike love more because he has more humanity than other vampires?
it's a visious circle!

Spike and the other vamps are incapable of love. Joss broke his own canon to maintain a popular character and all the excuses he makes are just self serving nonsense. Spike like all other Vampires share a lot of things in common with people who have anti-social personality disorder. Feel free to look up the diagnosis and symptoms. Vampires are incapable of human love because they do not have a human soul/conscious. With out a human soul no emotions are possible. You really need to listen to interviews with APD patients to fully understand their disconnection from human society but they are incapable of human attachment.

Is Spike a cool character? Yes, but Joss broke his own canon to maintain him as that character. It took Angel 100 years to come to grips with the things that he did to the world and Spike was with him for most of that carnage. What was Spike doing for the next 100 years? If I'm not mistaken he occasionally fed babies to Dru. What about the two slayers? O and the hundreds or thousands of people he killed while a vampire. If he has a soul then he can FEEL their terror and pain. Joss really did not want to deal with these issues because in dealing with them Spike would have to change as a character. Instead Joss keeps him as a badass that all the fans like and essentially jumps the shark.

Yes its very clear that I don't like Spike in season 6 or 7. The only reason I do not like Spike is that I think I misunderstood the original intent of season 6. I thought Spuffy was meant to show Buffy at her worst and in order to do that they used Spike as the foil. However most people found that relationship either loving or sexy when I believe the original intent was the exact opposite. Spike should have just lost his chip and went after the Slayer in season 7.

 

[nerd4hire]

I don't know PR. I can't help thinking you're less concerned with what Buffyverse canon is, and more concerned with what you think it should be based on external bits of knowledge.

As has been shown in this thread the idea vampire's believe they can feel something they call love is consistent throughout Buffy and Angel. That makes it Buffyverse canon in my book. Now one might not like that, but it is what it is.

 

[white avenger]

Remember what Angel said in Season 1 about how when a person who had been turned died, their soul and very essence dies, leaving only the memories and a part of the personality when the demon takes over? Well, we know that not all demons are completely evil, so maybe the one that possessed Spike's body had enough "good" attitude to allow him to retain such desirable human traits as honor, love, courage, and a sense of loyalty. Illyria referred to vampires as "halfbreeds." Maybe in Spike's case the two halves struck up a sort of symbiotic relationship instead if the demon being in complete domination.

 

[PhenixRising]

Remember what Angel said in Season 1 about how when a person who had been turned died, their soul and very essence dies, leaving only the memories and a part of the personality when the demon takes over? Well, we know that not all demons are completely evil, so maybe the one that possessed Spike's body had enough "good" attitude to allow him to retain such desirable human traits as honor, love, courage, and a sense of loyalty. Illyria referred to vampires as "halfbreeds." Maybe in Spike's case the two halves struck up a sort of symbiotic relationship instead if the demon being in complete domination.

I don't know PR. I can't help thinking you're less concerned with what Buffyverse canon is, and more concerned with what you think it should be based on external bits of knowledge.

As has been shown in this thread the idea vampire's believe they can feel something they call love is consistent throughout Buffy and Angel. That makes it Buffyverse canon in my book. Now one might not like that, but it is what it is.

The only reason I believe that Joss changes his canon is because it actually changes to bring Spike into the fold. White Avenger alludes to Angel's speech about love and emotional attachments as a vampire. Angel makes it clear that Vampires are incapable of human love because they are no longer human. Angel reinforces this concept when he is with Darla. Furthermore, Darla's connection with Connor reinforces it because she is able to love while carrying Connor. She is able to love because Connor's human soul is nourishing her with emotions. If I'm not mistaken these are all sources of Buffyverse canon.

In season 5 we can see Spike develop an obsession for Buffy that he claims is love but people who watch it straight through will remember that vampires can not love. Spike's obsession is rewarded when Buffy completely unravels and enters into a mutually abusive relationship that somehow became a loving relationship in the eyes of many fans. I've read that the writers had to explain to people that Spike was originally meant as a bad boyfriend analogy. I thought that was clear since he encourages Buffy to abandon her friends and by extension abandon her sister who would have been removed from the house if Buffy did not go all invisible.

 

[nerd4hire]

The only reason I believe that Joss changes his canon...

I don't get it. You keep talking about some change in canon as if it's a given fact it happened. What change of canon? What specifically are you talking about? When did it happen?

I'd like to be clear what we're talking about. White Avenger, I believe you're referring to the bit from the Buffy episode Angel, are you not?

Angel: When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesn't get your soul. That's gone! No conscience, no remorse... It's an easy way to live. You have no idea what it's like to have done the things I've done... and to care. I haven't fed on a living human being since that day.