disturbedvanity
Five by Five
*sigh* imo Spike never got back to his bad-ass potential. I will love him always, but he got too soft
IS Spike unique in his humanity
- Thread starter Irish Spike
- Start date
wiccianslayer
Vampire Diva
Okay I am going to keep this short and sweet.
Obviously Angel didn't really agree with what Buffy said so it does have something to do with who the human once was.
Obviously Angel didn't really agree with what Buffy said so it does have something to do with who the human once was.
Hmm, this is an interesting thread, and I've been itching to discuss Spike, so this'll be a long one.
The confusion on Spike's humanity can either be blamed on Joss's failure to maintain consistent canon, or can be considered just another interesting facet of the Buffyverse. I personally believe the latter, but one way or another, Spike was always different.
The emotions he showed were very genuine, very human, and based on countless episodes, there is no denying that he felt them. The examples of this are so numerous that I'm having trouble pinpointing just one at the moment. If you start from the beginning, there's the fact that his love for his mother stayed with him after his turning, enough that he wanted to "save her" and bring her with Drusilla and him. The next example is Drusilla herself; he most certainly loved her. It may have been twisted and demonic, but it was real nonetheless.
I do believe his love for Buffy started as an obsession, and I think he loved her that way long before the chip (Drusilla nearly confirmed as much with, "I can see her, floating around you"¦ why won't you push her away?"). But the last few episodes of Season 5 showed the change in him; he didn't give Dawn up to Glory despite the torture, he grabbed a sword with his bare hands to save Buffy, and he continually marched into battle knowing he could very well die"”all of that was selfless. It might not fit with the canon view of vampires, but it was there nonetheless. This point is further shoved home with his complete breakdown upon laying eyes on her body, and with his subsequent behavior. How many evil demons would stick around to baby-sit the younger sister of the Slayer, just because of a promise and a love for said Slayer?
On a different note, I think there's a reason for the way he killed while he was an unhindered, chipless vamp. While it can't be denied that he became a demon, and was therefore different than William, I think William's experiences played into Spike's behavior. He was treated like scum most of his life, denied by the woman he loved because he was "beneath her," and then he was given this extraordinary power. He no longer had to respect the laws of men, or even place value in human lives. He went from being below everyone, being William the Bloody Awful Poet, to being powerful beyond imagining. The way he altered his accent expressed his need to act tough, to create an image other than the one he'd always worn. Also, I think he found in himself a fierce love for violence and fighting ("When's the last time you unleashed it"¦. nothing but fists and fangs?").
His history aside, the real reason he was able to change, I think, was because of the chip. This was a situation completely unique to Spike; no vampire in the Buffyverse had ever had their power to kill taken away from them. It forced the parts of him that weren't the demon"”the parts that still managed to maintain his humanity"”to surface. What would anyone do when their purpose in life is taken away from them? Find something else worth living (er"¦ unliving) for. It was either bother Buffy and the Scoobies or be alone, and I don't think Spike could have handled the loneliness. So he fell in love with Buffy, bonded with Dawn, realized that Willow was kind even to a creature who'd previously tried to kill her, and suddenly he had all of these ties that he'd never meant to make.
There was proof of his change when he tried to attack the girl in the alley in Dead Things. He thought he could hurt humans again, so of course he went out to find a victim. Once he'd cornered her, however, he had to talk himself into it, force himself to think about Buffy and her cruel words and the fact that he was a monster. But the pleasure of the kill was gone; the lust for violence (at least in this way) was gone. The only things that allowed him to continue with the attack (and I do believe he would have killed her if the chip hadn't worked) were his bloodlust and his need to believe that he hadn't changed.
In Season 6 it became murkier, and there were parts with which I disagreed. Without delving into the twisted relationship between Spike and Buffy (and it was twisted"”on both sides), I think the fact that he got a soul is solid evidence both that he loved Buffy and that he was different than almost any other vampire. Even Angel, who was the reigning Vampire Hero, didn't choose to have a soul. Spike's decision to regain his, his fight to win it, showed that he had indeed changed. No other "evil, soulless thing" would have bothered, because no other vampire could have loved Buffy the way he did.
That leads to an important question: could Spike have found his direction without the soul? I think so, yes. Obviously that is just my opinion, but I think there is enough evidence to say that Spike is, indeed, an exceptional vampire.
So, I'll end on another crucial question: Did Joss and Co. mean to do it? Was Spike an accidental break from canon, or was there purpose behind his character? Well, consider Buffy, herself. When has she ever fit the mold of the Slayer? When has she meekly taken orders from the Council, or cut everyone out of her life to do her duty, or even stayed dead, for that matter? Buffy The Vampire Slayer constantly showed things differently than they appeared. It was always about presenting us with something, building up our expectations, and then smashing them down around us. The show was never afraid to dive into the gray area and shake up the rules. I think it's entirely plausable that Spike was one of those characters intended to break up the black-and-white views of right and wrong.
The confusion on Spike's humanity can either be blamed on Joss's failure to maintain consistent canon, or can be considered just another interesting facet of the Buffyverse. I personally believe the latter, but one way or another, Spike was always different.
The emotions he showed were very genuine, very human, and based on countless episodes, there is no denying that he felt them. The examples of this are so numerous that I'm having trouble pinpointing just one at the moment. If you start from the beginning, there's the fact that his love for his mother stayed with him after his turning, enough that he wanted to "save her" and bring her with Drusilla and him. The next example is Drusilla herself; he most certainly loved her. It may have been twisted and demonic, but it was real nonetheless.
I do believe his love for Buffy started as an obsession, and I think he loved her that way long before the chip (Drusilla nearly confirmed as much with, "I can see her, floating around you"¦ why won't you push her away?"). But the last few episodes of Season 5 showed the change in him; he didn't give Dawn up to Glory despite the torture, he grabbed a sword with his bare hands to save Buffy, and he continually marched into battle knowing he could very well die"”all of that was selfless. It might not fit with the canon view of vampires, but it was there nonetheless. This point is further shoved home with his complete breakdown upon laying eyes on her body, and with his subsequent behavior. How many evil demons would stick around to baby-sit the younger sister of the Slayer, just because of a promise and a love for said Slayer?
On a different note, I think there's a reason for the way he killed while he was an unhindered, chipless vamp. While it can't be denied that he became a demon, and was therefore different than William, I think William's experiences played into Spike's behavior. He was treated like scum most of his life, denied by the woman he loved because he was "beneath her," and then he was given this extraordinary power. He no longer had to respect the laws of men, or even place value in human lives. He went from being below everyone, being William the Bloody Awful Poet, to being powerful beyond imagining. The way he altered his accent expressed his need to act tough, to create an image other than the one he'd always worn. Also, I think he found in himself a fierce love for violence and fighting ("When's the last time you unleashed it"¦. nothing but fists and fangs?").
His history aside, the real reason he was able to change, I think, was because of the chip. This was a situation completely unique to Spike; no vampire in the Buffyverse had ever had their power to kill taken away from them. It forced the parts of him that weren't the demon"”the parts that still managed to maintain his humanity"”to surface. What would anyone do when their purpose in life is taken away from them? Find something else worth living (er"¦ unliving) for. It was either bother Buffy and the Scoobies or be alone, and I don't think Spike could have handled the loneliness. So he fell in love with Buffy, bonded with Dawn, realized that Willow was kind even to a creature who'd previously tried to kill her, and suddenly he had all of these ties that he'd never meant to make.
There was proof of his change when he tried to attack the girl in the alley in Dead Things. He thought he could hurt humans again, so of course he went out to find a victim. Once he'd cornered her, however, he had to talk himself into it, force himself to think about Buffy and her cruel words and the fact that he was a monster. But the pleasure of the kill was gone; the lust for violence (at least in this way) was gone. The only things that allowed him to continue with the attack (and I do believe he would have killed her if the chip hadn't worked) were his bloodlust and his need to believe that he hadn't changed.
In Season 6 it became murkier, and there were parts with which I disagreed. Without delving into the twisted relationship between Spike and Buffy (and it was twisted"”on both sides), I think the fact that he got a soul is solid evidence both that he loved Buffy and that he was different than almost any other vampire. Even Angel, who was the reigning Vampire Hero, didn't choose to have a soul. Spike's decision to regain his, his fight to win it, showed that he had indeed changed. No other "evil, soulless thing" would have bothered, because no other vampire could have loved Buffy the way he did.
That leads to an important question: could Spike have found his direction without the soul? I think so, yes. Obviously that is just my opinion, but I think there is enough evidence to say that Spike is, indeed, an exceptional vampire.
So, I'll end on another crucial question: Did Joss and Co. mean to do it? Was Spike an accidental break from canon, or was there purpose behind his character? Well, consider Buffy, herself. When has she ever fit the mold of the Slayer? When has she meekly taken orders from the Council, or cut everyone out of her life to do her duty, or even stayed dead, for that matter? Buffy The Vampire Slayer constantly showed things differently than they appeared. It was always about presenting us with something, building up our expectations, and then smashing them down around us. The show was never afraid to dive into the gray area and shake up the rules. I think it's entirely plausable that Spike was one of those characters intended to break up the black-and-white views of right and wrong.
palabravampiress
Bidet of Evil
Good point.
I don't know whether or not I think Spike was unique. I mean, Dru maintained her madness when she was turned. Liam retained his desire to be the alpha male. Darla retained her sexuality. Harmony retained pretty much *everything* about her personality. Based on the vamps that we get to know the best, I think more than mere memories cross over; I think strong personality traits cross over, too.
clemsgirlfriend
Potential
I agree that it was well-established in the canon that vampires can love and exhibit other aspects of humanity. For example, long before Darla's comment about not knowing how to love Connor and Angel's comment to her about how he could never love her while he was a soulless vampire, it was established that Dru and Spike loved each other and exhibited traits of humanity. And they were not unique in that, either - one of their vampire gang in season 2 (the one with glasses who worked for them as a translator) was able to be burned by the judge because that vampire had too much humanity in him ("he reads"), while Angelus could not be because he had no trace of humanity. And as other posters have already mentioned, Dru says outright that vampires can love (well if not wisely) in season 5, and Spike showed in season 3 that he was in love with Dru and was pining over her when she left.
I believe that the fact that Angel made the claim that vampires couldn't feel true love (after it was already established in canon that Spike and Dru felt love and that other vampire who reads had humanity in him) came from Angel not recognizing the feeling of love, since Liam had never felt it before, and neither had Angel until Buffy came along, and that was already after he had a soul, so he would likely have assumed that it wasn't possible until then since he hadn't known love before. The same is likely true of Darla, who worked as a prostitute before being changed over. But she did show evidence of loving Angelus when they were together.
I do agree, though, that although Spike was not unique among vampires without souls in feeling love or human emotions, the chip allowed those emotions to be more completely developed. It's analogous to what happens when people become vegetarians for health reasons. Vampires who kill humans to feed are no more evil than humans who kill cows or chickens to feed. In both cases, it is not necessary for survival - vampires can survive without blood, but they get brain damage (mentioned by Wesley when Angel was submerged under the ocean), and humans can survive with no health problems at all without eating other (formerly) living beings. But in both cases, they convince themselves that they need to kill to feed, and it is not until people stop eating killed animals for other reasons, such as health, that they can fully understand the compassion aspect of not killing other beings to eat them - until then, they block it out of their awareness and convince themselves that it is necessary. The same was true with Spike - until he got the chip, he just felt like he had to feed, and after he could no longer do that, he was able to imagine another way of being, and therefore could fall in love with Buffy, a human, just as he had previously done with Drusilla.
His actions towards Buffy and her friends and family proved that he was in love with Buffy and not just obsessed: letting himself be tortured to protect her and Dawn, and continuing to help her friends and protect Dawn even after Buffy died (i.e. when there was nothing in it for him and no chance of "impressing" her with his actions).
I believe that the fact that Angel made the claim that vampires couldn't feel true love (after it was already established in canon that Spike and Dru felt love and that other vampire who reads had humanity in him) came from Angel not recognizing the feeling of love, since Liam had never felt it before, and neither had Angel until Buffy came along, and that was already after he had a soul, so he would likely have assumed that it wasn't possible until then since he hadn't known love before. The same is likely true of Darla, who worked as a prostitute before being changed over. But she did show evidence of loving Angelus when they were together.
I do agree, though, that although Spike was not unique among vampires without souls in feeling love or human emotions, the chip allowed those emotions to be more completely developed. It's analogous to what happens when people become vegetarians for health reasons. Vampires who kill humans to feed are no more evil than humans who kill cows or chickens to feed. In both cases, it is not necessary for survival - vampires can survive without blood, but they get brain damage (mentioned by Wesley when Angel was submerged under the ocean), and humans can survive with no health problems at all without eating other (formerly) living beings. But in both cases, they convince themselves that they need to kill to feed, and it is not until people stop eating killed animals for other reasons, such as health, that they can fully understand the compassion aspect of not killing other beings to eat them - until then, they block it out of their awareness and convince themselves that it is necessary. The same was true with Spike - until he got the chip, he just felt like he had to feed, and after he could no longer do that, he was able to imagine another way of being, and therefore could fall in love with Buffy, a human, just as he had previously done with Drusilla.
His actions towards Buffy and her friends and family proved that he was in love with Buffy and not just obsessed: letting himself be tortured to protect her and Dawn, and continuing to help her friends and protect Dawn even after Buffy died (i.e. when there was nothing in it for him and no chance of "impressing" her with his actions).
P
Perny
Guest
I wouldn't say he is unique in his humanity since he is a vampire. Maybe after he got his soul, he would have some "humanity."
Unique, however, is something he always has been.
Unique, however, is something he always has been.
WillowSummers
Townie
Spike's humanity
I don't know what about Spike made him seem more human, but he always did. I think it may have been because he was so sensitive before he became a vampire. He wanted to save his mother and was horrified that his mother came on to him, he loved Drusilla and wanted her to be faithful to him, he didn't want to destroy the world and even wanted to keep it the way it was because he enjoyed the same pleasures we do and he did GOOD deeds for Buffy even without a soul. Then he strove to get his soul back for her. I worship Spike. 🙂
Lara
I don't know what about Spike made him seem more human, but he always did. I think it may have been because he was so sensitive before he became a vampire. He wanted to save his mother and was horrified that his mother came on to him, he loved Drusilla and wanted her to be faithful to him, he didn't want to destroy the world and even wanted to keep it the way it was because he enjoyed the same pleasures we do and he did GOOD deeds for Buffy even without a soul. Then he strove to get his soul back for her. I worship Spike. 🙂
Lara
laianna
Potential
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2009
- Messages
- 203
Hmm... I'm going to have to side with Buffy on this one.
In my mind, vampires cannot love without souls. I believe that Spike's "love" for Buffy was a mix of several things-- obsession and admiration of course, but also a challenge. He lusted for her because he wanted to bring her down to his level and prove himself.
I'm as lost as the next person in defining the word, "soul," so in my mind, basically when you became a vampire, you were the demon, yourself, just evil. Spike was as said, a thoughtful poet who "loved" very deeply as a human. But he was kind of obsessed with Cecily too, wasn't he? When Drusilla came along, he got a chance to prove himself to the world. He wasn't "beneath" anyone, and with Angelus as a mentor, you know he had to learn lessons fast. Being a vampire was natural to him because he didn't have to live by the society that ruined his life. He could just be himself, no rules or anything. That's kind of how I think of vamps in general-- no restrictions.
Back to my point though, Spike thought of Drusilla as his destiny. He thought he could finally own something and spent his whole (un) life trying to make her his. He was as obsessed with her as with Cecily and his motherr, and it appeared that she actually loved him back. Something I'd like to point out is that up until Lies My Parents Told Me in season 7 of Buffy, he thought his mother really felt the way she told him after he first sired her. She taunted him about the two of them being romantic and so he forever thought that not even she really loved him back. In desperation, he sought Dru and he convinced himself that he loved her too. However, they didn't even know eachother when she sired him and unless you believe in love at first sight, I think this is clearly an infatuation issue. He thought of her as an angel (the goddess from heaven kind, not his grandsire) but not necessarily as someone on equal footing with him.
He would do anything to own her, to keep her his. He saved her from the mob in Prague and cared for her when she was weak in Sunnydale. In another case, such as Darla/Angelus's, they would never have gone to such lengths to ensure the other survived... Look at the flashbacks in The Trial and others for proof of that. Spike also betrayed his general species to get Dru back at the end of season 2 by joining up with Buffy & co. If Spike's "love" existed then, it was clearly not a result of the chip seeing as he felt it in every instance we have seen of it.
Anyway though, Drusilla did not love him either, despite what she says-- she cheated on him with Angelus and broke up with him brutally. She then came back in Crush, not because she loved him, but because she wanted their family back together. Furthurmore, though he consistantly pined after her, she never seemed to care so much for him that she needed him around constantly. Quite the opposite, she used him for whatever she wanted and instead looked to others for support.
With Buffy, like I said before (wow, this is getting long...), I believe that he believed it was love, but really, how can you define love? He was abusive towards her and like Willow and Tara's conversation in Crush about The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Spike could never really love Buffy because he only wanted her for selfish reasons.
He had already shown with Dru, etc. that he was however loyal and certainly a bit more human than the average vamp, and so his regaining his soul should not have come as a shock/
I don't know how to put this.
Hope that offered some insight.
🙂
In my mind, vampires cannot love without souls. I believe that Spike's "love" for Buffy was a mix of several things-- obsession and admiration of course, but also a challenge. He lusted for her because he wanted to bring her down to his level and prove himself.
I'm as lost as the next person in defining the word, "soul," so in my mind, basically when you became a vampire, you were the demon, yourself, just evil. Spike was as said, a thoughtful poet who "loved" very deeply as a human. But he was kind of obsessed with Cecily too, wasn't he? When Drusilla came along, he got a chance to prove himself to the world. He wasn't "beneath" anyone, and with Angelus as a mentor, you know he had to learn lessons fast. Being a vampire was natural to him because he didn't have to live by the society that ruined his life. He could just be himself, no rules or anything. That's kind of how I think of vamps in general-- no restrictions.
Back to my point though, Spike thought of Drusilla as his destiny. He thought he could finally own something and spent his whole (un) life trying to make her his. He was as obsessed with her as with Cecily and his motherr, and it appeared that she actually loved him back. Something I'd like to point out is that up until Lies My Parents Told Me in season 7 of Buffy, he thought his mother really felt the way she told him after he first sired her. She taunted him about the two of them being romantic and so he forever thought that not even she really loved him back. In desperation, he sought Dru and he convinced himself that he loved her too. However, they didn't even know eachother when she sired him and unless you believe in love at first sight, I think this is clearly an infatuation issue. He thought of her as an angel (the goddess from heaven kind, not his grandsire) but not necessarily as someone on equal footing with him.
He would do anything to own her, to keep her his. He saved her from the mob in Prague and cared for her when she was weak in Sunnydale. In another case, such as Darla/Angelus's, they would never have gone to such lengths to ensure the other survived... Look at the flashbacks in The Trial and others for proof of that. Spike also betrayed his general species to get Dru back at the end of season 2 by joining up with Buffy & co. If Spike's "love" existed then, it was clearly not a result of the chip seeing as he felt it in every instance we have seen of it.
Anyway though, Drusilla did not love him either, despite what she says-- she cheated on him with Angelus and broke up with him brutally. She then came back in Crush, not because she loved him, but because she wanted their family back together. Furthurmore, though he consistantly pined after her, she never seemed to care so much for him that she needed him around constantly. Quite the opposite, she used him for whatever she wanted and instead looked to others for support.
With Buffy, like I said before (wow, this is getting long...), I believe that he believed it was love, but really, how can you define love? He was abusive towards her and like Willow and Tara's conversation in Crush about The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Spike could never really love Buffy because he only wanted her for selfish reasons.
He had already shown with Dru, etc. that he was however loyal and certainly a bit more human than the average vamp, and so his regaining his soul should not have come as a shock/
I don't know how to put this.
Hope that offered some insight.
🙂
I
InsaneMystic
great post!
Most of human love is selfish. Tell me you love somebody and not want to be loved back!
Soulless Spike was unique for his selfless love for Dawn, took that beating from Glory and patrol with scoobies, baby-sit Dawn in the summer after Buffy's death.
Dalton, Jane&Elisabeth, Lawson and Harmony, each soulless vampire had some human characteristics but all end up being compared to Spike.
So yes, Spike is unique
WillowSummers
Townie
This is a very good point. It makes him unique in human or demon standards and we also have to remember how impressed Buffy was by him protecting her and Dawn from Glory. Apparently she thought it was special too.
Lara