Is there a Male or Female Writing Style?

[nerd4hire]

Recently I was thumbing through an old magazine from the early 70s, and I saw this article where they were discussing whether or not the sexual revolution would produce any great women writers.

Looking past stuff like Jane Austen, the idea was that as the writing of women was becoming more accepted in the mainstream, they wouldn't have to battle their way into the all-boy network, and could show what they could really do.

This other guy was saying there will never be a female Shakespeare.

I remember an article from this Canadian Poet guy, who was writing in the same period. He made a statement something like "Women have babies. Men have ideas".

You could get away with statements like that back then. You can't now.

Here's a question I'm curious about though... Have those sexist claims made by the male chauvinist pigs of the late 60s and early 70s concerning the quality of male writing versus female been sufficiently disproven.

This may be subjective, but I have to admit, there was a time when I believed I could notice a difference between what I will call male writing, and female.

It seemed like male writing was usually more, what I'll call active. It could be seen in something like the rapid succession of unusual ideas with Vonnegut, or the economic and quicker deliverance of the action as with Hemingway.

To me women writers seemed more concerned with atmosphere than the average male writer.

Is that a good thing, or a bad thing, I don't know, but it did seem to be a thing, and really it shouldn't suprise, because apparently the male and female brain do operate in a physically different manner . There's that whole right to left brain thing.

There was a time when I used to believe I could watch a TV show and tell you which one was written by a man, which one by a woman.

I admit to something here. At the time, my general opinion was that male TV writing was better than female.

For one thing, it appeared to me female TV writers used to fall into that whole trap of cheaply denigrating the character to present something they seemed to think was clever, but really was pretty much cliched. They were big fans of embarrasment humour.

I could identify female writers with what I thought of at the time as pinpoint accuracy by looking for that kind of thing. Certainly male writers were doing the same thing, but with women writers it was more the boldness, repetiveness, and lack of fresh, that the bad ideas were presented.

My theory was proven wrong though, when I discovered Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

I couldn't pick a writer like Jane Espenson as a female writer with any kind of accuracy at all. I could get stuff like Superstar, or early Season 4 no problem, but then there was stuff like Earshot that I'd choose as male written and be proven wrong. I would have bet you money Storyteller was written by a guy, and would have lost.

Then there was Drew Z Greenberg. I would have lost a lot of money on him.

There was a time I was certain Drew Z Greenberg was female. The name didn't throw me, because, you know, Drew Barrymore. Then Drew Goddard turned up, and I had him pegged as a guy. So I had to look up the lesser Drew to attempt to prove to myself I could still pick the female from the male writers. I couldn't. Drew Z Greenberg is a guy.

So does this mean my whole theory there was a qualitive difference between male and female TV writers was incorrect, and lacked any merit whatsoever? I'm not sure. I think there may be another explanation.

It's possible that as women writers began to break into television writing in a big way they had to rely on abilities other than writing talent to get in. Stuff like schmoozing, or other forms of manipulation.

It's also possible they were dealing with certain expectations of the old boy's network that demanded certain behaviours. Executives seem to want hackneyed, cliched, broadly written stuff. Perhaps they were cracking the whip, and female writers had to make more concessions to the PTB of television than the average male writer did.

I do have to admit, I can no longer pick the male writers from the female on TV with the accuracy I once thought I could. To be honest, I can't lay claims to any kind of current accuracy at all. So what happened?

Do you think there's any such thing as male writing or female writing, or is there just writing? And if there is such a thing as a sexual style, is one better than the other?

 

[killerdwarf]

This is an interesting question, with the blow-up potential of a whole truckload of C4...

I'm an avid reader, of classic literature as well as modern, in many genres. I enjoy SF/Fantasy most, but I do read "regular" fiction as well. I've found that in the SF/F genre especially, the lines have become blurred, and there is no discernable difference between men and women writers in some cases. CJ Cherryh, Pat Cardigan and Connie Willis are just a few names of some female writers who come to mind that don't write in a stereotypically "girly" manner. That being said, some of the guys are paying a bit more detail to surroundings and what is being felt by the characters as well as what they are doing. In fact, there is a pair of short story SF anthologies available that are titled "Men Writing as Women" and "Women Writing as Men", proving, if nothing else, each can adopt the other's "style". There is a difference, and in "regular" fiction it is pretty obvious, especially in the choice of subject..."Shopaholics" will probably not be written about by guys, but "The Teeth of the Tiger" probably will. So I'm gonna do the usual kd thing and say there is a difference, it is becoming harder to tell the difference in some cases and in some genres, and there probably always will be a difference, due to the nature of men and women. Neither is better than the other, and I prefer to judge a story by the story; who wrote it is mildly interesting trivia, IMO.

 

[eponinethen]

Do you think there's any such thing as male writing or female writing, or is there just writing? And if there is such a thing as a sexual style, is one better than the other?

Well, first of all: No, I don't believe there is such a thing.

But it's not that simple, of course. This is like with any question regarding differences between sexes. Are men and women different? No, they're not. Not really. So the question is do you mean they write different cause they're born male or female, or do you mean they write different cause of the way they were brought up..?
Of course men and women are brought up differently, which makes them different, gives them different experiences and teaches them to behave differently. So yes, sometimes men and women do write in different ways, cause that's what they are taught and that's what people expect from them. That's why it's not weird you could pick male writers from female writers.. (Although I don't think I would have been able to.) And that's why it's not weird you couldn't when you watched BtVS. Not saying the writers for BtVS were much cooler than other writers, except yeah, maybe that's what I'm saying.. Maybe they were unusual people who doesn't fit into those male/female stereotypes..? I don't know, but it is possible.

This other guy was saying there will never be a female Shakespeare.

And about Shakespeare. I don't believe that there'll be a female Shakespeare either (unless Shakespeare was female that is), cause I don't think there'll ever be a writer, male or female, like that again.. But it wouldn't have surprised me if Shakespeare was female..

 

[nerd4hire]

Shakespeare as a woman...Hmm, interesting. That one would spark some scholarly debate I'll wager. 🙂

Actually I'd like to address the question "Are men, and women different?"

In the context of the writing question, I'm going to assume you mean mentally.

From my understanding of the scientific evidence, I'm going to say it would seem they are.

As stated before there's that whole right and left side of the brain thing. You know, like different sides of the brain handle different functions. I'm not an expert, but I have heard studies show something like, more activity occurs in one side than the other depending on the sex of individual.

I've heard it determined from that, that women would be more likely to be better at stuff like conversational speech, where a man might be better at something like backing up a trailer.

It's a physical thing, as I understand it; something like a woman would be more likely to have enlarged mammaries. It could happen in a man, but it would be less likely.

I saw this thing on one of those 60 minutes type programs one time, where they were showing the different ways men and women talk to each other.

They set up 2 chairs in a room and filled them either with 2 little girls, or 2 little boys. The girls would set up the chairs so they could look at each other and speak looking into each other's eyes. The boys would just sit side by side, and speak in short non-committal phrases.

Do you get the reality show Survivor where you are? It's kind of a co-ed, adventure game show, where contestants of both sexes compete against each other.

I can't help noticing that when the competition is a design type puzzle, like where does the blue oblong go in relationship to the red circle, the women are more likely to win, but if it's a functional type puzzle, like you have to turn this crank, to flip this stick, it's more often the men who win. That one's a subjective conclusion on my part though.

 

[eponinethen]

You haven't heard the rumour about Shakespeare being a woman? Hehe.. I'm not saying I believe it's true but I wouldn't be surprised if the person who wrote all that was female.

There are so many parts of that question. First of all, Yes I meant mentally, not physically, lol.

But then, there are still two different questions left.. I mean if you ask me "are men and women different [in our society]", I'd answer Yes in a second. But if you ask me if they are born different, I'd say No. I believe that everything that makes men and women different from eachother, has to do with the way they are brought up and what is expected from them in today's society.

About the right/left side of the brain. In the beginning of the 2000th century there were facts proving that white people had bigger brains then black people, I mean you can prove anything you like to prove if you work hard enough. Seriously, I don't believe that, where did you hear that? (Could be interesting.) Sounds like a myth...

I saw this thing on one of those 60 minutes type programs one time, where they were showing the different ways men and women talk to each other.

They set up 2 chairs in a room and filled them either with 2 little girls, or 2 little boys. The girls would set up the chairs so they could look at each other and speak looking into each other's eyes. The boys would just sit side by side, and speak in short non-committal phrases.

Yeah, I agree, I believe you. But this has all got to do with the way they are brought up. Little girls are taught to play with dolls and talk to them and have conversations, while boys are supposed to run around playing war and shooting eachother, I'm not at all surprised they turn out like they do. And since it is almost impossible not to be influenced by the way society wants men/women to behave (if they don't teach it to you at home there's always kindergarden, school, friends, friends parents and so on), I'm not surprised that almost all women end up more like eachother and all men more like eachother... But I don't believe we are born that way.

We do have Survival (I actually think that show started in Sweden), but the Swedish version. I can't remember if it's like that here, I haven't watched that show in many years.
But still, if you are right about this, wouldn't we notice this more? Wouldn't there be things that men could do better than women and vice versa..? Like with sports. Of course I know that men are stronger than women, physically, but that's really the only thing that makes them better. Or wouldn't women be better politicians.. or smarter in other ways..?

 

[nerd4hire]

You know what though? Even if all differences as to how a male or female brain will process information can be attributed to external causes, wouldn't that still allow the possibility of a noticeable male/female difference in writing style?

So what I'm curious about is, if it exists what is it? Is it possible to look at a piece of writing and say "a man wrote this", or "a woman wrote this". I used to think it was, but now I'm questioning the theory. I still find it interesting though.

As far as the theory goes that the current scientific understanding on the differences between male and female brain function is mythical, and will one day be misproven; I don't know, but here it is:



Quote -


Male-Female Brain Differences
Cell numbers -- men have 4% more brain cells than women, and about 100 grams more of brain tissue. Many women have asked me why men need more brain tissue in order to get the same things done.

Cellular connections - even though a man seems to have more brain cells, it is reported that women have more dendritic connections between brain cells.

Corpus collosum size - it is reported that a woman's brain has a larger corpus collusum, which means women can transfer data between the right and left hemisphere faster than men. Men tend to be more left brained, while women have greater access to both sides.

Language - for men, language is most often just in the dominant hemisphere (usually the left side), but a larger number of women seem to be able to use both sides for language. This gives them a distinct advantage. If a woman has a stroke in the left front side of the brain, she may still retain some language from the right front side. Men who have the same left sided damage are less likely to recover as fully.

Limbic size -- bonding/nesting instincts - current research has demonstrated that females, on average, have a larger deep limbic system than males. This gives females several advantages and disadvantages. Due to the larger deep limbic brain women are more in touch with their feelings, they are generally better able to express their feelings than men. They have an increased ability to bond and be connected to others (which is why women are the primary caretakers for children - there is no society on earth where men are primary caretakers for children). Females have a more acute sense of smell, which is likely to have developed from an evolutionary need for the mother to recognize her young. Having a larger deep limbic system leaves a female somewhat more susceptible to depression, especially at times of significant hormonal changes such as the onset of puberty, before menses, after the birth of a child and at menopause. Women attempt suicide three times more than men. Yet, men kill themselves three times more than women, in part, because they use more violent means of killing themselves (women tend to use overdoses with pills while men tend to either shoot or hang themselves) and men are generally less connected to others than are women. Disconnection from others increases the risk of completed suicides.

http://www.brainplace.com/bp/malefemaledif/default.asp

Male and female brains

Whether you are a boy or a girl also determines how your brain looks and works. We know from animal research that substances called sex hormones, produced by the sex glands, are needed to develop the differences between males and females. Sex hormones are necessary both for forming the genitals and for the behavioural and brain differences between the sexes. The hypothalamus, which is a tiny structure at the base of the brain, regulates many basic functions, such as eating, sleeping, temperature control, and reproduction. One part of the hypothalamus responsible for sexual behaviour is larger in male brains than in female brains, in human and non-human animals. In rats the enlargement is known to depend on male sex hormones, called androgens.

Sex hormones also affect other parts of the brain. For example, the outer layer of the cerebrum, called the cortex, is thicker on the right hemisphere than on the left in male rats, but not in female rats. Another recent discovery is that male and female brains in some ways work differently. When set the same task, females may use both hemispheres, while male brain activity is restricted to one side. For example, if the task is to define words, men appear to use only their left hemisphere, while women use both. For many other problem-solving activities however, men's and women's brains work in the same way.

The left and right cerebral hemispheres are connected by fibres running crosswise between them called commissures. The largest and most important commissure is called the corpus callosum; another important connection is the anterior commissure. One way the commissures are useful is in exchanging information between the two hemispheres.

These connections between the hemispheres may also be somewhat different in men and women. The area of the anterior commissure seems to be larger in women, and some researchers have found that the back part of the corpus callosum is larger in women. If the larger area of the commissures results in better communication between hemispheres, this could make some difference to the way men's and women's brains work.

Finally, there is probably also a difference between men and women as to which part of the left hemisphere is responsible for speech and hand movements. There are two major areas devoted to speech, one in the frontal lobe, and the other at the back, where the temporal and parietal lobes meet. In women, the frontal region is more important than the area at the back, so problems with speaking are more likely to happen if the front part of the left hemisphere is damaged. In men, the areas contribute more equally, but if anything the back part, especially the parietal region, is more important.

Evolutionary change

Some of the differences between the ways that men's and women's brains work must have evolved over time. We know that the average man and woman have slightly different intellectual strengths. Some of these differences appear to be the result of a division of labour between men and women going back to our hunter-gatherer past. For example, men are better at spatial-navigational skills such as map reading and judging distances and at targeting skills (dart throwing for instance). These skills probably developed through hunting. Women have a better memory for words and objects, and are better at fine motor skills. These abilities probably developed through food gathering near the home and through making clothes and preparing food.

We know from animal research that sex hormones help determine such patterns, because if the brains of young female rats are exposed to androgens right after birth, their spatial abilities as adults are different from normal females', and more like males'. Similarly, in humans, girls exposed to excessive androgens early in life have better spatial skills than other females. Exactly how sex hormones cause changes in the brain to make one person intellectually different from another is not yet understood in detail, but it is a fascinating subject which is the focus of much current research.

http://www.sfu.ca/~dkimura/articles/britan.htm

 

[eponinethen]

You know what though? Even if all differences as to how a male or female brain will process information can be attributed to external causes, wouldn't that still allow the possibility of a noticeable male/female difference in writing style?

Yeah that's what I mean. In the world we live in today, there are all sorts of differences between men and women, probably their writing style too, I'm just saying it's not something they were born with. And that even explains why there are exceptions, cause there are some people who have (more or less) succeeded to break out of those roles (etc).

Ok, that's interesting things.. what you posted. And sure, some of might have some sort of truth.. But some of it, this for example...

"Cell numbers -- men have 4% more brain cells than women, and about 100 grams more of brain tissue."
... I know have been "proven" wrong, like five weeks after the theory came.

And this...
"Limbic size -- bonding/nesting instincts - current research has demonstrated that females, on average, have a larger deep limbic system than males. This gives females several advantages and disadvantages. Due to the larger deep limbic brain women are more in touch with their feelings, they are generally better able to express their feelings than men. They have an increased ability to bond and be connected to others (which is why women are the primary caretakers for children - there is no society on earth where men are primary caretakers for children)."
... really sounds like someone came from the 19th century and wanted to prove that women are supposed to stay at home (taking care of the family) while men are supposed to provide for the family.
No there are no society on earth where men are primary caretakers of the earth, there are also no society on earth that is not patriarchal.

I believe that there can be something true about the things you posted but I don't believe in all of it, at all. I don't know much about how these kinds of experiment are perform, or how they came to these conclutions, but I have a really hard time believing these things are facts.

 

[nerd4hire]

Yeah, I'm not a scientist, so I don't know how credible all that is. I just thought it was interesting.

I tend to take that right-left side of the brain stuff seriously though, because you hear it everywhere. My impression is it's kind of universally accepted.

It isn't like all that inter-racial differences in IQ and brain size stuff you hear from time to time. A study of some sort comes out, then other studies come out that dispute it, and other scientists pick it apart.

BTW were you serious about a Shakespeare as a woman theory. I looked, and couldn't find anything on it. Gotta link? You're not just funning with me are you? 🙂 Is it kind of like that old line "When God made man, she was only joking." ?

 

[eponinethen]

I agree, it was interesting to read, and I'm not saying it's all lies or anything, I do not know.

Those kind of things I hear all the time (but never from feminists) I tend to think of as myth. That's just the way I work. (Cause I've never heard from anyone who I really trust when it comes to this, hehe.)

About Shakespeare. Yes, I'm serious. I'm not saying I believe it though.
Ok, the theory isn't really that "William Shakespeare was a woman". The thing is we don't really know who he was (of course since he lived a long time age and all that), and I've heard rumours about him being gay and him being this or that... This theory is a bit different though, more serious maybe, and also based on other things.. The theory is basicly that the person who wrote under the name William Shakespeare was female. Maybe she was Williams sister/lover/friend, maybe there was no real William Shakespeare..? I don't know what the people who believe in this theory believe... But yeah, I have really heard about this theory, but I don't know what it's based on. It could be interesting though (my only point was really that a woman definelty could have written that).

 

[nerd4hire]

Are there scholarly articles written about it somewhere like with the Ben Johnson, Francis Bacon theories, or is it more something you just think you heard somewhere? Again gotta link?

I just thought of something else. What about the hormonal thing, like testosterone. Could that kind of stuff conceivably affect writing style?

 

[eponinethen]

I know that I've heard the theory from people who are really interested in Shakespear, so it must a more or less serious theory, I mean serious to someone at least, heh.

Hormones, yeah I guess that could make some difference. Never thought about it... well, that is a thing that makes men and women different so.. I guess it could affect, but I don't know how it would affect their writing..?

 

[HiddenTrack]

jane esp....wrote the best buffy eps...

i think that there are more differences in the style in each gender...than there are differences in the style between the genders...

people who like fundamentals of basketball watch the wnba...people who like the game for highflying action watch the nba...women play basketball different than men...and one of the major reasons they play different than men is because of the differences in physical abilities....

from the long perspective...i think that men and woman do write differently...there are always exceptions to the rule...and some genres mix...but i think they do write differently if i were to bluntly categorize them...this doesn't make either superior or inferior...just different...nothing wrong with being different...that's what make the world hella cool...

falk a female shakespere...if she is that great...shakespere will be the male version of her...that's like people always saying when is there going to be the next jordan or whatever...they don't realize that there is someone better and will make jordan be a precursor to Lebron James...falker is amazing...

 

[nerd4hire]

Yeah, as I recall it the "female Shakespeare" line was a radical statement from another time - pre-equality for the sexes. Some believed that women writers could be good, but they could never be great.

 

[eponinethen]

women play basketball different than men...and one of the major reasons they play different than men is because of the differences in physical abilities...

Um, yeah of course, I agree. But the physical abilities have very little to do with writing in my opinion. And as I said, I believee that there are only physical differences between men and women. And that is no reason why they should write differently (except for the fact that they are brought up treated differently of course)...

 

[killerdwarf]

And as I said, I believee that there are only physical differences between men and women. And that is no reason why they should write differently (except for the fact that they are brought up treated differently of course)...

Ah, epo, you're very young (and that's not a bad thing!). There are differences; I'm not going to try to convince you, just to say this: I can absolutely positively 100% lead-pipe cinch guarantee you that you will not think that once you are married, with children!

 

[eponinethen]

I know I'm young... And I won't tell you that I will have the exact same thoughts when I'm older and maybe married or whatever, cause I obviously can't know that. But, I am quite sure there are lots of people who believe the same thing I do, who are married with children. I mean I know there are. How can you tell me I won't think that..? I see no reason. (As you may have noticed, if you've read my posts, I do believe there are differences between the sexes today, in this society. Sometimes even big differences. But I believe that has all got to do with our society, the way we bring up our kids and the different ways in which we treat men/women.
Just so you won't misunderstand me.)

 

[Frenchy Faith]

You were talking about Shakespeare being a woman. If you're still interested in, here is a link about it :
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5250890/site/newsweek/

Sounds like a quite serious theory, but it's not like they are sure, I mean, it remains theory, & we probably will never know.

About the topic, I'm not too sure about it, I would have said that there was a difference, mainly in the past... but I pointed out that nowadays you are never sure about whether a man or a woman wrote the book unless you look at their names. I mean I've been amazed sometimes to find male names on books I thought a woman had written. A change with the time & equalization of gender I guess.

 

[nerd4hire]

Well it's a theory all right, but let's get real. It's about as credible as "Elvis lives" or "Michael Jackson is really Janet". In fact as far that Shakespeare was a woman theory goes, I googled it and I'm pretty sure I've seen more actual support for the Elvis thing.

 

[killerdwarf]

How can you tell me I won't think that..? I see no reason. (As you may have noticed, if you've read my posts, I do believe there are differences between the sexes today, in this society. Sometimes even big differences. But I believe that has all got to do with our society, the way we bring up our kids and the different ways in which we treat men/women.
Just so you won't misunderstand me.)

LOL. No misunderstanding here, epo! I know exactly what you mean. And I'm not saying I know you'll change your mind. But I'm betting that you will. It's a "been there, done that" thing! I'm not throwing any disrespect because you're young, either. Just don't go out getting preggers just to prove me wrong, ok??😉

 

[eponinethen]

Well it's a theory all right, but let's get real. It's about as credible as "Elvis lives" or "Michael Jackson is really Janet". In fact as far that Shakespeare was a woman theory goes, I googled it and I'm pretty sure I've seen more actual support for the Elvis thing.

Haha, well, I never said I believe in that theory, I just said it exists.

killerdwarf - I know that many people seem to change their minds about a lot of these things when they grow "older" (hehe). But really, I believe "my" thoughts are just as common around grown ups as they are with young people. I probably hadn't believed what I do if that wasn't something many of my teachers had us discussing when I was (even) younger... and things like that.