Isn't Wolfram and Hart too powerfull?

RuhiWarrior19

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It seems to me that the sort of power Wolfram and Hart has is inconsistent with the rest of the evil in this universe. The First looks like a bunch of bunnies in comparison, in terms of what it was able to do, and yet W&H seems to essentially have no weaknesses whatsoever.

Am I the only one who feels like, even in this universe with big bad evil, W&H is unrealistically big in comparison?
 
Not really...W&H did have lots of hot, well-dressed lawyers conducting its business...a bit more brainpower there than the First's Ubervamps...
 
Yeah, I feel like that sometimes, but Angel never has been about winning the war. It's been about the battles- lost or won. Metaphorically, just getting up each morning to start another day without the certainty that there's a big finish and big reward. I think that's why Wolfram and Hart is so overwhelming.
 
Could be a numbers game. The First vs all the Senoir Partners and all their minions, and that's not even mentioning their many armies
 
Also what makes Wolfram & Hart so powerful is that they have people, demons, and creatures of all kinds working for them in many different dimensions, however if everyone were to just quit Wolfram & Hart then what could the Senior Partners really do, because they can't work on this plane.
 
It seems to me that the sort of power Wolfram and Hart has is inconsistent with the rest of the evil in this universe. The First looks like a bunch of bunnies in comparison, in terms of what it was able to do, and yet W&H seems to essentially have no weaknesses whatsoever.

Am I the only one who feels like, even in this universe with big bad evil, W&H is unrealistically big in comparison?


Wolfram and Hart exist due to the First Evil. Buffy, Spike, the Scoobies and the Potential had not destroyed the First. They had merely ruined the latter's plans regarding the Slayer line, the Hellmouth and the balance of good and evil. But as long as evil exist, so does the First Evil. And considering how well Wolfram and Hart seemed to be doing, despite Angel, the First Evil is alive and well.
 
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You have to remember, the Senior partners are basically playing off against the Powers That Be. Just because they have numbers on their side regarding followers doesn't mean they are actually winning. What have they really achieved on a large scale? I think the metaphor is more that an act of evil is always more visable and will draw more attention than an act of good. There's no real imbalance of good and evil, however. The Senior Partners are not really there to be beaten. That's why Wolfram and Hart really have very few weaknesses.

Look at it from the other side - how many weaknesses do the PTB have? Angel et all are working on a differnet level to Wolfram and Hart. If you compared them to anyone, it would have to be to the (hot, well-dressed) lawyers, rather than to the company itself.
 
I've always loved Wolfram & Hart as the villain in "Angel". To me it was so much more interesting than just some random evil Big Bad each year on BtVS, where Buffy fights them all year long and defeats them in May each year. W&H is just...cool. And badass. I like that they're so tough to beat, if they weren't they wouldn't be as interesting. But it's not like Angel isn't constantly ruining their plans and schemes.
 
It seems to me that the sort of power Wolfram and Hart has is inconsistent with the rest of the evil in this universe. The First looks like a bunch of bunnies in comparison, in terms of what it was able to do, and yet W&H seems to essentially have no weaknesses whatsoever.

Am I the only one who feels like, even in this universe with big bad evil, W&H is unrealistically big in comparison?

Maybe, but there really not anymore powerful in AtF than they were in the show. We might not have seen their full force, but that was because they had already won in their minds, the world was they way they wanted.

Remember W&H was the primary target of Jasmine, a Fallen PTB, and W&H pretty much defeated the First through using Agel, Spike & Buffy.
 
Well, I agree with you. If the first evil can be beaten than wy can't W&H? I think they are too strong for their own good.
 
While personally I agree with you, I get it from Joss' perspective too.

W&H are "evil." The First may be the Original evil, but in the 20th & 21st (plus possibly earlier) centuries, W&H embodies and feeds upon what people & tptb consider "evil." And "evil" can be fought, but never conquered--not by folks like Buffy or Angel anyway (Jasmine might have been able to, but her alternative was arguably worse).

There are a few quotes that address this, and while they might not be 100% accurate, they represent how Angel sees it now.

"Reprise"
Angel: "Okay. Home office. (He slides on the ring.) Let's finish this."
The ding of an arriving elevator sounds and Angel turns to see the doors of it open on the outside wall of the office building behind him.

Holland is standing in the open doors of the elevator slowly clapping his hands.
Angel walks slowly closer.
Holland: "Congratulations. Great victory."
Angel: "You're..."
Holland: "Holland Manners."
Angel: "...not alive."
Holland: "Oh, no. I'm quite dead. Unfortunately my contract with Wolfram and Hart extends well beyond that. (Gives Angel a big smile, then motions his head) Hop on in. You certainly earned it."
Angel slowly steps in, looking at Holland, who laughs.
Holland: "No. Not a ghost here. No, it's just me. Dead me. (Pulls the collar of his shirt aside to show Angel Darla's bite marks, then reaches for the elevator buttons) See? - Home office, wasn't it? I should mention the trip is one way."
Angel stands in the elevator looking out, not saying anything.
We see a homeless person pushing a loaded down shopping cart across the plaza in front of the elevator.
Holland: "Well, if there are no objections, I suggest we get going. It is rather a long ride."
Holland pushes the 'down' button. The doors close and we see the elevator descending down the elevator shaft.
Angel and Holland are standing side by side in the elevator as the lights from the floors it is passing flash by and typically annoying elevator music plays in the background.
Holland: "Well, this is exciting, isn't it? (Smiles) Going straight to the source. - So, what's the big plan, Angel? Destroy the Senior Partners, smash Wolfram and Hart once and for all?"
Angel: "Something like that."
Holland: "Hm-mm, now tell me just what do you think that would accomplish? In the end, I mean."
Angel: "It'll be - the end."
Holland: "Well, the end of you, certainly. But I meant in the larger sense."
Angel: "In the larger sense I really don't give a crap."
Holland: "Now I don't think that's true. - Be honest. - You got the tiniest bit of 'give a crap' left. Otherwise you wouldn't be going on this Kamikaze mission. Now let me see, there was something - in a sacred prophecy, some oblique reference to you. Something you're supposed to prevent. Now what was that?"
Angel: "The apocalypse."
Holland: "Yes, the apocalypse, of course. - Another one of those. Well, it's true. We do have one scheduled. And I imagine if you were to prevent it you would save a great many people. Well, you should do that then. Absolutely. I wasn't thinking. - Of course all those people you save from that apocalypse would then have the next one to look forward to, but, hey, it's always something, isn't it?"
The elevator shaft and cable dissolve as the elevator continues to plummet into a hellish red glow.
Angel: "You're not gonna win."
Holland: "Well - *no*. Of course we aren't. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as 'winning.'"
Holland laughs and for the first time Angel turns his head to glance in Holland's general direction.
Angel: "Then why?"
Holland: "Hmm? I'm sorry? Why what?"
Angel: "Why fight?"
Holland: "That's really the question you should be asking yourself, isn't it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We - go on - no matter what. Our firm has always been here. In one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And *that* - friend - is what's making things so difficult for you. - See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. - It works with us. - It works because of us."
And with that the elevator comes to a screeching halt.
The doors open and Angel looks out to see a homeless person pushing a loaded shopping cart across the plaza in front of the Wolfram and Hart Office building in LA.
Holland: "Welcome to the home office."
Angel: "This isn't..."
Holland: "Well, you know it is. - You know *that* better than anyone. Things you've seen. Things you've, well - done. You see, if there wasn't evil in every single one of them out there (Angel watches as some people in the plaza start yelling at each other) why, they wouldn't be people. - They'd all be angels."
The glove drops from Angel's right to land on the floor of the elevator and Angel slowly shuffles out of it.
Holland calling after him as the doors close: "Have a nice day."

Angel slowly walks the streets of LA, seeing a prostitute and a potential customer having a verbal disagreement, a woman yell at a girl.

"Not Fade Away"
ANGEL
'Cause it's not about us, Lindsey. It's about them. The wolf. The ram. The hart. The ones we've been fighting against forever.

LINDSEY
You can't beat 'em.

ANGEL
Maybe they're not there to be beat. Maybe they're there to be fought. Maybe fighting them is what makes human beings so remarkably strong.

LINDSEY
(stands)
You're not talking about the kind of strength human beings have.
(sits on the edge of the table)
This is not about coveting your neighbor's ass, your buddy's job, the last Mallomar in the box. You're talking about fighting flesh and something that passes for blood demons with enormous power, and they will mow you down.

ANGEL
Maybe... but I keep thinking that once this world was theirs and now it's not.

LINDSEY
Isn't it?

ANGEL
Give me the hell on Earth speech, Lindsey. I know how bad things are, how much sway the demons hold. I happen to be the greatest mass murderer you've ever met.

LINDSEY
Never given you props for that, have I?

ANGEL
There's always going to be power, and there's always going to be corruption.
[br][/br]
Edit:
[br][/br]
Angel's mission to beat the Senior Partners ended in season 2 ("Reprise"). Then mid-season 2 through "You're Welcome," his mission was to just do good, basically lessen the damage of evil:

"Epiphany"
Angel: "In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win."
Kate: "You seem kind of chipper about that."
Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
Kate: "And now you do?"
Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

"Deep Down"
Angel: "What you did to me - was unbelievable, Connor. - But then I got stuck in a hell dimension by my girlfriend one time for a hundred years, so three months under the ocean actually gave me perspective. Kind of a M. C. Esher perspective - but I did get time to think. About us, about the world. - Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be. - You're not a part of that yet. - I hope you will be."

Then at the end of Season 5, his new mission became temporarily screwing up the Senior Partners plan, to hurt them and show them that they don't have as much power as they like to think. And After the Fall, he's just trying to pick up the pieces. That's how I see it anyway.
 
Well, I agree with you. If the first evil can be beaten than wy can't W&H? I think they are too strong for their own good.

The First Evil wasn't beaten though. It's plan was thwarted. There is a huge difference. How many of Wolfram and Hart's plans have AI thwarted, large and small? Just by remaining ensouled, Angel was winning one over on them.
 
The First Evil wasn't beaten though. It's plan was thwarted. There is a huge difference. How many of Wolfram and Hart's plans have AI thwarted, large and small? Just by remaining ensouled, Angel was winning one over on them.

I disagree, W&H don't want Angelus, they want to corrupt Angel. The Shanshu prophecy is about Angel, not Spike, Connor or even Angelus, whichever side plans on winning will need the soulful Champion in their corner. Soul doesn't equal good, all humans except that one boy in the Buffyverse have souls and plenty are far from heroes. W&H want Angel in that demographic.

And I think that as of 2009 W&H has a lot more juice than any other baddy, especially the First. W&H has legions of "employees" and are connected at every level from politicians to CEOs to celebrities to owning full dimensions. The First had a hack & Slash Uber Vamp army and a bunch of blind human worshipers (along with a single liaison). Even before the Scoobies+Angel+W&H took down the Ubers, W&H still outclassed the First.
 
W&H are "evil." The First may be the Original evil, but in the 20th & 21st (plus possibly earlier) centuries, W&H embodies and feeds upon what people & tptb consider "evil."


The First Evil is part of Wolfram and Hart. They are NOT two separate entities. It is a part of an individual or entity that accepts evil or any kind of negative force into his/her/its heart. All Buffy and the Scoobies did was ruin the First Evil's plans to upset the balance. They did not destroy or defeat it.

While the Scoobies were busy ruining the First's plans in Sunnydale, it was already worming its way into the hearts of Angel and his friends, when they made the decision to join Wolfram and Hart.
 
The First Evil is part of Wolfram and Hart. They are NOT two separate entities. It is a part of an individual or entity that accepts evil or any kind of negative force into his/her/its heart. All Buffy and the Scoobies did was ruin the First Evil's plans to upset the balance. They did not destroy or defeat it.

While the Scoobies were busy ruining the First's plans in Sunnydale, it was already worming its way into the hearts of Angel and his friends, when they made the decision to join Wolfram and Hart.

I disagree. W&H were key in defeating the First's Uber-Vamp Army. There's no way they're the same entity.
 
I disagree. W&H were key in defeating the First's Uber-Vamp Army. There's no way they're the same entity.



No wonder people do not like Season 7. They either do not understand it or refused to do so, because they dislike its message.

You don't get it, do you? The First Evil was the essence of evil itself. It was the evil that existed in all sentient beings, and that included Buffy and the Senior Partners of Wolfram and Hart.

This is what Joyce was trying to hint in Buffy's dream in one of the mid-season 7 episodes. But Buffy refused to listen. And I can see that many fans have either never considered this or simply do not want to. Why? I guess they would rather simplify what evil really means.


All that amulet did in "Chosen" was stop the First Evil's plans by closing the Hellmouth and killing the Uber Vamps through a Champion wearing it. That's it. The First Evil was never destroyed. Not when evil continues to exist in other beings . . . like the Senior Partners.
 
W.R. & H. are an evil concern, corporeal. The First is the essence of evil so in effect W.R. & H. can be controlled by the First.
WR&H could have been beaten by Angel or Buffy, but lets face it they might have beaten the evil on the corner but they never got really organised enough to make concerns like WR&H panic.
 
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