I don't think its 'even worse'; Spike has committed mass murder with his bare hands, Spike tried to kill Buffy and her friends multiple times, he's teamed up with other evil against them, he's killed other slayers.
Also Xander doesn't have a sacred duty to kill vengeance demons, Buffy is sleeping with one of the worst examples of the kind she should be killing.
So no, Buffy is way worse than Xander and a million times worse than Angel.
Buffy and Spike to that; anybody having sex with an unrepentant serial killer who specifically targets her kind is morally bankrupt and disgusting, no matter what the age really.
Definitely think this would’ve been included if the show was made today. Questionable morality and dubious romance is, as it always has, selling like hot cakes. Enemies to lovers is a standard trope for a reason.
The only thing I imagine them tweaking is age differences.
They both were in high school together. He was a teen when he was made a vampire. Spike and Angel were both adults, closer to 30 than 16. Neither of them could perpetrate being high schoolers.
The fact that Jonathan and Andrew weren't treated as the rapists they were for their role in Katarina's abduction and rape. I'm not saying the writers thought their role in it was okay, obviously not, I think it was more just that Warren was so hideous he overshadowed them, but yeah they were both just as bad when it came to taking away her will. To be honest I don't like that development in Jonathan. It's horrifying to think he was capable of that when he was a light, even sympathetic character in previous seasons. Also no way can I see Andrew as the plucky comic relief on rewatches.
Obviously the Angel/Buffy thing was creepy from the start.
I'm unsure about listing Spike/Buffy as it was meant to be creepy to be fair?
Anya being let off the hook compared to Spike and Angel by Xander when she is worse than both of them combined. (That really made me dislike Xander as a child.)
Willow still being nasty about Cordelia even after she stole her boyfriend and Cordy seemed to forgive her, but Willow was still nasty and judgemental about her even after she left in s4. Okay Cordy was a bully, but Willow did get her revenge.
They both were in high school together. He was a teen when he was made a vampire. Spike and Angel were both adults, closer to 30 than 16. Neither of them could perpetrate being high schoolers.
Who cares how old he was when he was made a vampire? He was over 100 years old and she was 17. It was ridiculously gross. He wasn't a high school student, he was a 100 year old man pretending to be one to prey on a high school kid.
The fact that Jonathan and Andrew weren't treated as the rapists they were for their role in Katarina's abduction and rape. I'm not saying the writers thought their role in it was okay, obviously not, I think it was more just that Warren was so hideous he overshadowed them, but yeah they were both just as bad when it came to taking away her will. To be honest I don't like that development in Jonathan. It's horrifying to think he was capable of that when he was a light, even sympathetic character in previous seasons.
Jonathan was already a rapist in season 4. He used magic to make a pair of twin sisters have sex with him in Superstar. Two-for-one rape and incest special.
Definitely think this would’ve been included if the show was made today. Questionable morality and dubious romance is, as it always has, selling like hot cakes. Enemies to lovers is a standard trope for a reason.
Sadly, I think you're right but it is still kinda odd double-think by particulars in the fandom. Angel is irredeemably horrible for sleeping with a teenager but Buffy is not condemned for sleeping with a complete mass murdering psychopath.
When you strip all the metaphor out of the show to make a point and then only condemn one? That's baffling. Fandom is stupid.
Skanky Vampoh, that makes more sense. Dur. Long day.
Counterpoint: Buffy, and most of the audience, can seperate loving and soulful Angel vs soulless and mass murdering Angelus. She didn't sleep with a murdering psychopath ::cough:: until she slept with spike ::cough:: as Angel was not one.
thetopherYeah, to clarify I was referring to Buffy/Spike, not Buffy/Angel. Buffy didn't have a relationship with Angelus.
Sadly, I think you're right but it is still kinda odd double-think by particulars in the fandom. Angel is irredeemably horrible for sleeping with a teenager but Buffy is not condemned for sleeping with a complete mass murdering psychopath.
When you strip all the metaphor out of the show to make a point and then only condemn one? That's baffling. Fandom is stupid.
Having sex with someone doesn't mean you endorse their character, nor does it make you complicit in their crimes. Especially when you're essentially doing it to punish yourself because you're not properly dealing with your own previous trauma.
Buffy having sex with Spike is self-harm and a red flag that she needs help.
Angel declaring that he loved a 15 year old girl after following her around LA without her knowledge and peering into her bedroom and bathroom windows at night is psychotic. Angel moving to Sunnydale to await her arrival, following her some more, verbalizing that he was too old for her and then kissing her anyway, maintaining a relationship with her, having sex with her on the night of her 17th birthday, then breaking up with her because she's too much of a kid after she turned 18 is stalking, grooming, and statutory rape.
Eh, I think one of the general tropes of modern vampire fiction is that vampires are lost souls trapped in a state of arrested development. Angel isn't 230 years old in the same way a Biblical antediluvian patriarch or an High Elf would have been, the years haven't made him wiser, or kinder, or more clever, he just endures, he just survives, he's a parasite, it's like two hundred years of trainspotting. It's the worst form of immortality. Trying to ascertain if Angel needs to take a seat with Chris Hansen, is bending the metaphor in a way it wasn't meant to go.
Eh, I think one of the general tropes of modern vampire fiction is that vampires are lost souls trapped in a state of arrested development. Angel isn't 230 years old in the same way a Biblical antediluvian patriarch or an High Elf would have been, the years haven't made him wiser, or kinder, or more clever, he just endures, he just survives, he's a parasite, it's like two hundred years of trainspotting. It's the worst form of immortality. Trying to ascertain if Angel needs to take a seat with Chris Hansen, is bending the metaphor in a way it wasn't meant to go.
He was in his mid 20s when he was sired, so even if he were 26 for hundreds of years it's still super gross to sleep with an underage girl and it's super gross to follow people around and peer into their bedroom and bathroom windows at night no matter what age they are.
And just because it relies on a previously known trope doesn't mean the trope wasn't always gross and poorly rationalized to begin with. Blackface was acceptable in society until suddenly it wasn't, and looking back we can of course see it was wrong all along. Media evolves. The entire basis of the franchise is a subversion of the damsel in distress trope, after all.
He was in his mid 20s when he was sired, so even if he were 26 for hundreds of years it's still super gross to sleep with an underage girl and it's super gross to follow people around and peer into their bedroom and bathroom windows at night no matter what age they are.
And just because it relies on a previously known trope doesn't mean the trope wasn't always gross and poorly rationalized to begin with. Blackface was acceptable in society until suddenly it wasn't, and looking back we can of course see it was wrong all along. Media evolves. The entire basis of the franchise is a subversion of the damsel in distress trope, after all.
If that's the price of no longer glorifying relationships between underage kids and 100+ year old creepers, so be it. If the existence of your story hinges upon your ability to justify sleeping with a school girl to the audience, it's time to evolve or die.
No, they just need to scrap the relationship entirely. It doesn't matter at what age Angel was sired, he has been in the world for more decades than Buffy has been years. There is no way to do a relationship between a character like that and a teenager that isn't gross whether you wait until she's technically 18 or not.
Just like Anya and Xander is creepy and gross regardless of whether or not she waited until he was 18 (which the show doesn't specify).
I'm providing a workaround, under the assumption they'd go ahead with their relationship on the series anyway. So you'd have to adjust their ages to try and combat the issue.
Yes, Angel is very old (and Spike), but they're vamps and they're frozen in time. Forever (technically) the age when they were turned. So you'd have to make Angel a few years younger, and Buffy two years older to close that gap.
Realistically, even Superman and Lois are wrong, for me. Every superhuman-human relationships are problematics.
-Clark can't have real sex and let himself go with Lois (realistically speaking, not comic-book speaking)
-Realistically, Lois would be a huge liability for him, sooner or later, she would be killed by his enemies or used against him (and in the real world, the main character doesn't always win as in comic books 😉)
It would be more appropriate for Superman, a girl/woman with superpowers.
Depending on what comic you read/film or TV series you watch - Clark and Lois have a child - sex is happening! 😉
In terms of liability; even if Supes was in a relationship with one of his kind - enemies are still there and after them. A bit of Kryptonite and there's trouble.
Angel wouldn't be immune from being killed - all it takes is one well-placed stake on patrol and it's all over for him. We saw Buffy almost being bested by a vamp in s5.
They've all got superhuman strength, but they're not immune. The danger is always there.
The show doesn't make sense. Realistically? The strength and powers of vampires and demons in Btvs were inconsistent also for this reason, otherwise there was no way, normal humans would even stand a chance against supernatural beings.
A single full power punch by someone like Mike Tyson, etc. Ufc fighters etc can knock out a "normal person", imagine a punch from a supernatural vampire. In reality, there is no way that weak humans like Xander, Cordelia etc (that aren't trained as well) can fight and take on even a single vampire as in the show. It's all bullshit in order to overhype the friendship of the main characters of the show.
They would have been all dead, like Jesse in the first/second episode (the fate of Jesse could have happened also to Xander etc.) it's only plot armor.
Xander can't even defeat Larry in High School, but he can fight and defend himself from vampires and demons? Yes, sure. Realistically, he would have been dead.
The show would be over in one season if Buffy didn't have her friends for help. Definitely one must suspend their disbelief. So Giles, Wood, Willow, Anya and Xander, Cordy etc help dust vamps, though they shouldn't be able to take a hit from them or have the power to stake them.
The strength of humans varies when it needs to fit within the story, as does the strength of vamps, because...plot armour. 🤣
Yes, the age problem between Anya and Xander is the same ad Buffy-Angel/Spike and similar couples. It's exactly the same reason no one care abut Anya's behavior towards her murders, and Scoobies behaviors towards her as well.
You know, Anya is a character with no deep that everyone forget talking about 😉 (despite ruining the morality of the entire show 🤣)
We've seen time and again plot points that are 'icky' played off for laughs, or completely swept aside. You can't think too hard about all of these issues all of the time, because it takes you out of the show.
I'm providing a workaround, under the assumption they'd go ahead with their relationship on the series anyway. So you'd have to adjust their ages to try and combat the issue.
Yes, Angel is very old (and Spike), but they're vamps and they're frozen in time. Forever (technically) the age when they were turned. So you'd have to make Angel a few years younger, and Buffy two years older to close that gap.
The much easier and less problematic workaround is simply to have the vampire love interest be younger and more recently sired. Why did Angel have to be sired 200 years ago? Why not 200 days ago? If you take out the stalking her at 15 stuff and Angel is 18 or 19 instead of 240, nobody has a problem with him being in a relationship with a 16/17 year old Buffy. Angel being way, way older than Buffy isn't really important to the story. There are other ways to get to the soul removal if that's still your endgame and he can feel just as guilty and broody about being murdery for a short time as for a long time.
The history is the appeal. These lovers who have lived many lives, the experience is appealing in teen girl story time. I agree that ageing Buffy up to 18 is less seedy.
The much easier and less problematic workaround is simply to have the vampire love interest be younger and more recently sired. Why did Angel have to be sired 200 years ago? Why not 200 days ago? If you take out the stalking her at 15 stuff and Angel is 18 or 19 instead of 240, nobody has a problem with him being in a relationship with a 16/17 year old Buffy. Angel being way, way older than Buffy isn't really important to the story. There are other ways to get to the soul removal if that's still your endgame and he can feel just as guilty and broody about being murdery for a short time as for a long time.
Yes, it absolutely is. Buffy does not care about what Spike has done or what he is- a mass murderer- and so she sleeps with him. It is absolutely an endorsement. Abhorrent and creepy.
No it isn't self harm, she doesn't harm herself she beats Spike to a pulp, she's morally bankrupt, disgusting and degenerate. This thing kills slayers and she's giving it a happy. Repulsive.
Angel declaring that he loved a 15 year old girl after following her around LA without her knowledge and peering into her bedroom and bathroom windows at night is psychotic. Angel moving to Sunnydale to await her arrival, following her some more, verbalizing that he was too old for her and then kissing her anyway, maintaining a relationship with her, having sex with her on the night of her 17th birthday, then breaking up with her because she's too much of a kid after she turned 18 is stalking, grooming, and statutory rape.
Yeah, this is just classic double think 'Angel's actions are horrid, Buffy's actions are totally excusable'. Because what you're doing is stripping the metaphor and the nuance out of one and leaving the nuance out of the other. Cope harder.
The most un-American episode was Doublemeat Palace.
When Willow found out that the meat wasn't real meat, Buffy tells the staff at the local store and only asks for her job back. And then she is still living from hand to mouth, working at a job she hates. She should have entered into a non-disclosure agreement - in exchange for saying nothing, she would get a hefty cash settlement. Then she could actually explain the upscale wardrobe she has during the rest of the season. Buying somebody's silence - didn't that cause enough drama for a certain politician recently (and it's still going on)? Buffy is a show written by an opportunist masquerading as a feminist. Shouldn't Buffy the character be a bit more opportunistic as well?
NotASlayerThe entire BrokeBuffy storyline was stupid and required actively ignoring every existing way of getting by - like demanding the council pay her a wage; she had made them her bitcas in Checkpoint - whilst still showing Buffy wearing designer clothes.
TheMaster666It's a tv show written by writers not real life. Cut it some slack not plot line is going to be perfectly 1:1 with real life. Really minor hole if you can even call it that.
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