SlayerFest
Wiley Dairy Gnome
I posted it right after I saw what you wrote. I didn't see the truce. Sorry, I'm not trying to stir anything up.
Joss is such a cruel person tbh
- Thread starter Joshua
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I posted it right after I saw what you wrote. I didn't see the truce. Sorry, I'm not trying to stir anything up.
I think the hell might freeze because of that but I agree. Joss's favouritism not only determines which characters get killed and which survive but he also had Buffy, Spike, Darla (and in a sense Angel too) resurrected. And I totally understand why he did that but let's not pretend killing Joyce for instance instead of Buffy or Xander added any realism. Yes, dying fro man illness is sadly realistic but so is dying in a fight to the death.
Willow grew from the Dark Willow experience? Seriously? Not to mention it fits the dreaded "Women in Refrigerators" trope to a tee. For all his feminism claims, it's rather suspicious that Joss keeps using the deaths of almost exclusively female characters to further some other character's development. With Tara this particularly annoying as her suffering had already been used as a reason for Willow to go berserk back in Tough Love.
Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
*shrug* It's what I heard was his reason (I have no good source). And while I regret not writing "evolve" or "took her character to a new place" instead of "grow", I do think that her turning into Dark Willow and recovering from that really made sure that she understood that magic was a dangerous tool (something I think she already got, but now she will never forget it). And as I said, it also got her character to a new place. She was forever changed from the experience,
I would rather have kept Tara and developed her than take Willow on that specific path, since the character now bores me, but I still understand wanting to take characters to the bottom and build them up.
In his defense, BtVS has a truckload of female characters, so chances dictate that a female character be killed since there's a shortage of males. On the other hand, AtS has a lot more male characters, and (I think) a more even ratio of deaths by gender--female: Cordy, Fred; male: Doyle, Wesley.
Joss has done that so many times that it really comes off as beating the dead horse. "Yeah, we will have Willow turn against Buffy, that's so original. It's not as if we already had her mother, father, sister, father figure, friends, fellow slayer, boyfriends, classmates and the council do that. No, no, this time it will be so very original and new, trust me. And Willow trying to destroy the world will haunt her for months. Off-screen. It will be forgotten and forgiven right after next season starts. I am a genius!"
I mean, of course Joss will say he wanted to explore the characters by having them go dark. But sweeping their crimes under the carpet makes me think he just wanted to go for the shocking twist and didn't care to actually write any long term repercussions.
BtVS has Giles, Xander, Riley, Oz, Spike and Angel as important male characters and Buffy, Willow, Cordelia, Anya, Tara, Joyce, Jenny, Faith and Dawn as important female characters. The ratio isn't that skewed in favour of the women as is the ratio of the deaths - 6:9 as opposed to four deaths for principal female characters and zero for the male characters. Well, unless you count Spike's death but in this case you need to count Buffy's too, so it becomes 5:1.
I think Joss did a lot of that. Even Willow-Tara I think he did for "shock value" rather than something he planned and weaved into building up the character. Initially it was supposed to be Xander, but wait! Won't it be even more shocking if it's WILLOW?! Wow, let me quick rewrite this episode. lol
Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
You don't think Dark Willow had any reprecussions? Far into season 8 we still got "Willow might go dark again, better make sure she doesn't" moments. I don't think Buffy forgave Willow for going dark until Same Time, Same Place, and throughout the season, we saw Willow hardly daring to do magic.
Willow tried to destroy the world. Being forgiven few episodes later hardly counts as a repercussion, IMO.
Which could have happened even if Tara had lived, since Willow was addicted to magic.
Not that this stops Willow using magic all the time, even for silly things like Willow the flying taxi.
S
Skytteflickan88
So you can't just say that you disagree, you have to use sarcasm? If you want more reprecussions, fine, that's up to you. I don't. I'm sick and tired of the "Willow could go bad again"-theme.
SlayerFest
Wiley Dairy Gnome
Seriously. I hated that after Willow killed a person, and tried to destroy the world...she just goes back to being sweet, little Willow. I mean they cracked jokes about what she did and it just wasn't fair. When Buffy, who has saved their life time and time again, wants to go back to the vineyard...she gets kicked out. When Willow almost got Dawn killed...Buffy didn't kick her out. It would have been super harsh to do so, but still. Then they accepted her back with open arms after everything that she did. Ugh.
---------- Post added at 12:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------
I so don't find that fair. I don't think that the Willow-Tara relationship was done solely for shock value. If I was in Joss' position, and decided, "Hey, these two have great chemistry. I like this." and decided to go with it, I would be so irritated if people insisted that I did it solely for publicity or something. I can't speak for Joss, but he has said that the two of them had chemistry, and that's why he did it. If, lets say, Willow had been with Kennedy first, so no Tara, then yes...that would have seemed suspicious. I get Willow-Tara because they did have chemistry, whilst I felt Willow-Kennedy was......blah.
Point is, I didn't find Willow-Tara shocking...very few people I know did. When my mom found out she actually said, "Yeah, I can see that." like it just...worked. It felt natural, and I'm sure Joss felt the same way and that's why he did it.
Tome
HAHAHAHA at the slow mo version of that scene in your sig. :D Made me laugh.
Sarcasm? I was being perfectly serious. And I am sick of "Willow could go bad" too, I just don't think the characters repeating this mantra actually addresses the problem, it's more of rehashing the storyline.
Buffy wasn't kicked out, she decided to leave all on her own because the rest of the gang called her bluff. If in Gone Willow had bluffed like Buffy did in Empty Places and had said something along the lines of "Hey gang, I want to do a spell to revive Jenny and Joyce, help me or I will leave the house" Buffy would have shown her the door.
Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
[MENTION=8821]Icarium[/MENTION]
This doesn't qualify as sarcasm? I thought it did. Ironi?
I think that while Willow was seen using magic in season 8, she does still deal with the consequences of not being able to have a normal life (which I assumed was because of her and magic.)
This doesn't qualify as sarcasm? I thought it did. Ironi?
I think that while Willow was seen using magic in season 8, she does still deal with the consequences of not being able to have a normal life (which I assumed was because of her and magic.)
GUYS, please, let's just have a normal discussion on this topic, please, without the unnecessary fighting.
---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------
How did he know they had chemistry before Amber was even on the show? I think later it worked out fine, but at the time it didn't feel natural at all to me, it felt forced and out of left field. It's not about Willow and Tara, it's about why they brought that storyline in in the first place, and I just don't think it was entirely a creative decision.
I didn't say I found it shocking, but it did get the show publicity. However, watching it now is much different than watching it at the time when it originally aired. At that time, it was something quite new on tv and it got a lot of publicity. Which at the time it felt like that was the reason they did that, not because it made sense story-wise.
But that was just an example of me agreeing with Icarium about Joss doing things on the show for shock value.
---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------
How did he know they had chemistry before Amber was even on the show? I think later it worked out fine, but at the time it didn't feel natural at all to me, it felt forced and out of left field. It's not about Willow and Tara, it's about why they brought that storyline in in the first place, and I just don't think it was entirely a creative decision.
I didn't say I found it shocking, but it did get the show publicity. However, watching it now is much different than watching it at the time when it originally aired. At that time, it was something quite new on tv and it got a lot of publicity. Which at the time it felt like that was the reason they did that, not because it made sense story-wise.
But that was just an example of me agreeing with Icarium about Joss doing things on the show for shock value.
The way I see it, Willow didn't want to have a normal life. Since they ditched the addiction storyline and Willow wasn't around Buffy all that much, it's not as if she was forced to go around casting spells.
I think Tara was added to the show before Joss decided he would go with Willow and Tara hooking up. I read somewhere that it wasn't until a few episodes after her début that Amber got told by Joss that she and Willow were going to become a couple. Prior to that Joss had considered just subtextually playing with the idea of them being hot for each other, like he did with Buffy and Faith.
That said, Tara conveniently arriving on the scene right after Willow got over Oz suggests that Joss was really considering her to become Willow's love interest from the start. Anyway, it's hard to deny that Willow becoming gay wasn't exactly set up much, then again you could say the same thing for Xander, had Joss gone with that idea instead. But Willow and Tara became a multi-season couple, so I don't think Joss did it primarily for shock value. Buffy and Satsu on the other hand...
BuffyElevated
Scooby
I agree about Buffy and Satsu, for sure. I think Buffy's lesbian tryst was something to garner publicity for the comics, tbh. I don't really care if it was, but it's just my thought on the matter. 😉
I think Joss kinda gets off on doing things to cause emotional upset with the characters/fans. I have seen him in interviews and heard commentaries where he's said things to this effect and it bothers me, and then with what happened with Charisma, I tend to think he's a douchebag. I don't know if he's cruel, but I think he can definitely be a prick at times.
Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
Actually, I've been told (no source) that he didn't intend for there to be any subtext like that between Faith and Buffy. He had in fact to be convinced by fans before he saw that it was there.
I have no idea if that's true or not.
BuffyElevated
Scooby
He says that in one of the commentaries in Season 4, I think... I'm not sure though, but I do remember hearing him talk about it.
S
Skytteflickan88
Thanks, I'll have to check that out.
Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
I think she gave up trying after a while. She thought she could play with magic, but after the events of season 6, her turning into dark Willow in specific, made her realize magic wasn't a toy. But it was also something that was now a part of her, wherther she used magic or not. And since she wanted to help people, not using magic might not have seemed like a good option.
So she used magic, thinking that it made her different. And as I think, it made her dangerous, and she knew that. Everyone knew that. And Willow seemed to think that was all she would ever be. Something dangerous, but useful.
Up until the Retreat arc, when she meets Oz and realizes that maybe she can have a normal life too. I can't recall if she lost faith in that, and started to believe she was destined to just be a witch, or whatever, but I thought it was nice, that she seemed to finally more on from the consequences of dark Willow.
Cast No Shadow
You are my world.
Some fans argued that the show developed a lesbian subtext between Faith and Buffy; Jane Espenson states that Joss says he didn't intend this, but admitted it was there after he had it pointed out to him, jokingly attributing this to his subconscious.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer)#cite_note-41
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_(Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer)#cite_note-41
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S
Skytteflickan88
Thanks for the link.
Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
To me, he's only a prick if he writes painful storylines just to hurt people. If he does it because it would create a good story AND hurt people by accident or on purpose, that's different.
I kind of think it's a good kind of pain he's going after. Making us cry out of love for a character, not out of pure pain.
Does the members in this thread who have said they think he's cruel think that he writes cruel storylines just to hurt us, or that he does that, but also put the story first. Because I've seen some posts that suggests that he just got into the business to hurt people, and that made me curious.
I kind of think it's a good kind of pain he's going after. Making us cry out of love for a character, not out of pure pain.
Does the members in this thread who have said they think he's cruel think that he writes cruel storylines just to hurt us, or that he does that, but also put the story first. Because I've seen some posts that suggests that he just got into the business to hurt people, and that made me curious.
Cast No Shadow
You are my world.
I don't really think it's fair to criticise him, he's made one of the best TV shows there is, the cruel storylines are what makes the show, without them we'd probably be bored to tears.
It shows a fantastic skill in Whedon that he can evoke such emotions from people, but rather than showing him to be a "cruel bastard", it shows that he's intelligent and can create damn good television.
It shows a fantastic skill in Whedon that he can evoke such emotions from people, but rather than showing him to be a "cruel bastard", it shows that he's intelligent and can create damn good television.