Joss is such a cruel person tbh

[SlayerFest]

Sarcasm? I was being perfectly serious. And I am sick of "Willow could go bad" too, I just don't think the characters repeating this mantra actually addresses the problem, it's more of rehashing the storyline.



Buffy wasn't kicked out, she decided to leave all on her own because the rest of the gang called her bluff. If in Gone Willow had bluffed like Buffy did in Empty Places and had said something along the lines of "Hey gang, I want to do a spell to revive Jenny and Joyce, help me or I will leave the house" Buffy would have shown her the door.

Buffy didn't say, "Let's go to the vineyard or I'm gone!" Dawn told her that it was her house too and, basically, that if she didn't want to do things their way, she had to go. Dawn kicked her out. She didn't say, "Get out!" but it was heavily implied and everyone was against her so...why not leave? She was hurt and she felt that was what they wanted so she left. Come on, you know they did. And your faux scenario is just a tad ridiculous...

---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------

GUYS, please, let's just have a normal discussion on this topic, please, without the unnecessary fighting.

---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------



How did he know they had chemistry before Amber was even on the show? I think later it worked out fine, but at the time it didn't feel natural at all to me, it felt forced and out of left field. It's not about Willow and Tara, it's about why they brought that storyline in in the first place, and I just don't think it was entirely a creative decision.



I didn't say I found it shocking, but it did get the show publicity. However, watching it now is much different than watching it at the time when it originally aired. At that time, it was something quite new on tv and it got a lot of publicity. Which at the time it felt like that was the reason they did that, not because it made sense story-wise.

But that was just an example of me agreeing with Icarium about Joss doing things on the show for shock value.

It always seemed natural to me...not sure why. And according to Joss, he decided to have them be together after Hush. Maybe I'm wrong, or he's lying because I remember reading that somewhere. I was way too young to find it new or anything, I kind of just accepted anything and everything as a kid. I didn't even know that their relationship was considered new or anything. I also didn't see it as creative or "edgy", I just saw it as...natural haha but that's just my opinion. I mean, I don't like Willow/Kennedy and I'm sure that there are some people...somewhere, who found that pairing natural.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I'm not saying Willow & Tara wasn't natural, I'm talking about how it began being jarring from what came before.

 

[SlayerFest]

I understand. I've just always felt that Joss did it simply because it felt right, not for publicity or anything. But perhaps I'm just being a tad naive.

 

[caritas08]

I'm just going to play devil's advocate because I admit I have been a huge Joss fangirl since I was fifteen and he is without a doubt the single most influential celebrity in my life.

Yes I admit he can do wrong....the comics (in my opinion), Cordy's ending arc, aspects of Seasons 4, 6 and 7, Connor, and Kennedy.

But I have never known any writer, who can get me to emotionally connect with characters the way Joss can. I have never known any writer that I can depend on that what he makes will be excellent despite a few flaws on occasion. I have almost never been depressed because of watching a Buffy episode (though the characters are depressed in many episodes) and his shows constantly put me in a better mood after watching them.

As far as the deaths of major characters...it is realistic. These characters are mortal and the humanity that we love about them is also the reason they are not invulnerable to the multitude of supernatural forces that they face for years without getting harmed. Joss has been said to have prolonged the lives of Oz, Spike, Anya, Xander and Tara because of their popularity with fans so I don't really think he gets some sort of sick pleasure out of killing off fan favorites. True, not many characters are allowed to be in lasting romantic relationships but Joss has always emphasized the lasting importance of friendship/familylike relationships anyway so I don't think he really wanted the romance to be the focal point of his shows (though for many fans it is for obvious reasons).

As far as the Charisma thing we can only speculate what actually happened behind the scenes, just like we can speculate if SMG is really a nice person or not and appreciates the fans. Her pregnancy might not have been the real reason she was let go. He may have been thinking about it long before he even found out about her pregnancy. We don't know. We do know that he repeatedly stated in interviews that he killed Glenn Quinn's character that he did it "for the story" and then I saw a biography on E about stars who died young from addiction and it featured Glenn Quinn and friends of Glenn Quinn stated repeatedly that Glenn got fired from Angel because of serious substance abuse issues so I am speculating that Joss was trying to protect Glenn and not tell all the media the real reason we lost Doyle as a character.

I can personally only speculate that Joss must be doing something right because he is still friends with Nathan, Eliza, Amy, Alexis, Anthony, J. August, Alyson, Felicia among many other crew members and writers many of whom have stuck with him for over ten years which says something.

 

[SlayerFest]

I can personally only speculate that Joss must be doing something right because he is still friends with Nathan, Eliza, Amy, Alexis, Anthony, J. August, Alyson, Felicia among many other crew members and writers many of whom have stuck with him for over ten years which says something.

Kind of reminds me of David Fincher. Everyone who has never met him...speculates that he is an ass, yet the people who have actually worked with him have all said that he's amazing and that they'd work with him again. I highly doubt that what happened with Charisma is as bad as some people are making it sound. It makes total sense that she'd want to spend time with her son and I highly doubt that Joss was just like, "Screw you, you're fired." Why would she bother to come back for You're Welcome? She's said that she was happy with the way Cordy went out, I mean she was pleased with the fact that her character gave people some sort of closure. I'm sure if she had been mistreated or fired, she would have seemed somewhat bitter.

I used to be convinced that Joss was just an a-hole because so many people, who have never met him, feel that he is or have heard rumors that he's overbearing or something. However...when you really think about it, most of this stuff is based on rumors. Most of the pushy directors, filmmakers, etc. usually seem like jerks to people who have never spoken to them, but most actors are dying to work with them. So I agree...he's doing something right.

 

[Taake]

I don't really think it's fair to criticise him, he's made one of the best TV shows there is, the cruel storylines are what makes the show, without them we'd probably be bored to tears.

Well to be honest I do think that all creators (of tv, books, music) deserve to be criticized because they have released their work into public opinion where it's bound to meet some resistance as well as love. Regardless of the quality of the work (it's kind of subjective after all isn't it 😉) the fans do have a right to criticize and disagree with the creator and his decisions.

As for Joss Whedon I've never noticed most of the negative things I've seen other mention (about his commentaries etc) but I certainly don't always think he does the right choices in terms of storytelling. There's organic storytelling and then there's day-time-drama where everything is just always mucked up for the sake of keeping the story moving. I think Joss has done a good job on that for the most part but as the years have dragged on I do feel that he has lost the ball a little bit on the Buffy/Angel verse and that, to my opinion, the quality of the comics is considerably less than the tv-shows (though I felt the last seasons slipping in that as well but that's strictly a personal opinion of course).

So would I say cruel? No, I think he's just... lost a bit of passion for the Buffyverse. It doesn't feel like his priority anymore and the story has taken some rough turns probably in part because of that.

 

[Cast No Shadow]

Well to be honest I do think that all creators (of tv, books, music) deserve to be criticized because they have released their work into public opinion where it's bound to meet some resistance as well as love. Regardless of the quality of the work (it's kind of subjective after all isn't it 😉) the fans do have a right to criticize and disagree with the creator and his decisions.

As for Joss Whedon I've never noticed most of the negative things I've seen other mention (about his commentaries etc) but I certainly don't always think he does the right choices in terms of storytelling. There's organic storytelling and then there's day-time-drama where everything is just always mucked up for the sake of keeping the story moving. I think Joss has done a good job on that for the most part but as the years have dragged on I do feel that he has lost the ball a little bit on the Buffy/Angel verse and that, to my opinion, the quality of the comics is considerably less than the tv-shows (though I felt the last seasons slipping in that as well but that's strictly a personal opinion of course).

So would I say cruel? No, I think he's just... lost a bit of passion for the Buffyverse. It doesn't feel like his priority anymore and the story has taken some rough turns probably in part because of that.

Yeah I get what you're saying. I should clarify what I meant, I don't think it's fair to criticise him as a "cruel bastard", general criticism is to be welcomed and expected though 🙂

 

[Ripper666]

Joss drives us all and every Buffy-fan mad...and now help me get rid of this straitjacket...it's hard to write with it on my notebook...

 

[Selfless705]

Personally, I think Joss was a great writer in the idea of killing off people... Yes he only really killed of secondary characters, but too be honest the audience grow just as close, I would say to these characters as they have the core four. And in most cases, the deaths come at a time where it does allow for a huge character growth of another character. And in the terms of writing I think that is what a writer has to do. Especially in a show about vampires, completely surrounded by death. People are going to die, or it just isn't realistic.

I dont think Joss killed off the characters because he had favouritism, but more because the characters death would evoke more emotion from the fans, and the other characters which will make for, great tv!

On the Charisma front, I have only heard her side of the story, but it does sound as he was acting kind of childish, as he didnt get the season he wanted, because of her pregnancy so he, in my opinion, destroyed her character. I also heard he straight out lied to her when she came back for the 100th episode. As she said she would only be in it if her character didnt die, then he killed her off! Even though in the panel I heard this in she did admit that the writing was fantastic in that episode.

In the matter of writing, and the way he killed off most of the characters on both shows I completely respect him. It kept me, and all of you watching so he must have been doing something right. On a personal level I wont comment because I dont know him, only what I have heard, even if what I have heard has not been good

 

[Dagenspear]

Personally, I think Joss was a great writer in the idea of killing off people... Yes he only really killed of secondary characters, but too be honest the audience grow just as close, I would say to these characters as they have the core four. And in most cases, the deaths come at a time where it does allow for a huge character growth of another character. And in the terms of writing I think that is what a writer has to do. Especially in a show about vampires, completely surrounded by death. People are going to die, or it just isn't realistic.

I actually prefer it when shows RARELY kill off characters. And lol at vampires and realistic somehow going hand in hand.

 

[Selfless705]

I actually prefer it when shows RARELY kill off characters. And lol at vampires and realistic somehow going hand in hand.

I actually meant that in the situation where there are vampires, and supernatural happenings, it is realistic that death would occur a lot more than in a "normal" situation.

And I too would rather not have my favourite, or any characters die, but with the time of death, and the consequences of it, I praise Joss for being able to co-ordinate and plan it all so well.