Joss Whedon and feminism

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Joss responds to the question he is asked often of why he creates strong women characters.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs"]Joss Whedon's Equality Now speech - YouTube[/ame]
The whole speech is incredible, but this quote really stands out to me:

"...recognizing someone else's power does not diminish your own."

and

"Why do you write strong female characters? Because you're still asking me that question."

*cheers*

Yes, Joss. Yes. This is true feminism, and you are a true soul and ally to women.

Thoughts on what he said?

 

[Blaze]

All I can say is that I love this man.

 

[Robb Stark]

It's a powerful and uplifting statement, but the hole I always see when I watch this video is his line of "...recognizing someone else's power does not diminish your own."

That's a wonderful sentiment and one I fully, completely agree with. The trouble is that Joss very clearly doesn't believe it in the way some of the Buffyverse is constructed. There are some incredibly sexist episodes of BTVS and AtS. "Wild at Heart" and "Billy" are, when you think about it, episodes with pretty gross messages.

So when Joss says that the entire notion of his feminist beliefs center around equality, and then produces episodes with themes of "all men secretly crave the subjugation of women" and "all men have a beast inside them", it makes me roll my eyes at the contradiction.

I don't know if that takes away at all from the really strong and positive sentiment. I like to think it doesn't, but I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Kana]

That's a wonderful sentiment and one I fully, completely agree with. The trouble is that Joss very clearly doesn't believe it in the way some of the Buffyverse is constructed. There are some incredibly sexist episodes of BTVS and AtS. "Wild at Heart" and "Billy" are, when you think about it, episodes with pretty gross messages.
So when Joss says that the entire notion of his feminist beliefs center around equality, and then produces episodes with themes of "all men secretly crave the subjugation of women" and "all men have a beast inside them", it makes me roll my eyes at the contradiction.

Maybe I need to re-watch Wild At Heart, but I don't remember such a message ever being portrayed, especially when the episode itself features a female werewolf. Perhaps you're getting mixed up with 'Beauty and the Beasts' where Faith makes the statement that all men are beasts but even then I never got the impression we were supposed to believe her. The only real beast in that episode was Pete, but that was because of how he behaved rather than the supernatural element present in his situation.

As for Billy, I once discussed that topic in this very forum! I actually wouldn't mind opening another thread on that subject.
I don't know if that takes away at all from the really strong and positive sentiment. I like to think it doesn't, but I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Robb Stark]

Maybe I need to re-watch Wild At Heart, but I don't remember such a message ever being portrayed, especially when the episode itself features a female werewolf. Perhaps you're getting mixed up with 'Beauty and the Beasts' where Faith makes the statement that all men are beasts but even then I never got the impression we were supposed to believe her. The only real beast in that episode was Pete, but that was because of how he behaved rather than the supernatural element present in his situation.

As for Billy, I once discussed that topic in this very forum! I actually wouldn't mind opening another thread on that subject.
I don't know if that takes away at all from the really strong and positive sentiment. I like to think it doesn't, but I'm not entirely sure.

No, no, I'm thinking of "Wild at Heart". It wasn't a message I picked up on until I watched the episode commentary with Joss, where he discusses, at length, his beliefs that all men do indeed have that "beast" inside of them, and that they can't help it. I finished it, but I wanted to turn it off half way through. Frankly, it was insulting. He isn't even remotely subtle about it.

 

[EffyStonem]

The speech is all well and good but actions speak louder than words, and Joss' actions indicate that he is not a true feminist.

He writes rape and sexual assault appallingly badly, without consideration to the victims or the messages he sends (and I'm not just referring to the Spuffy AR here, the AtS episode Untouched is a great example of mishandling sexual abuse as is the proposed Reaver attack on Inara had Firefly continued).

He stuffs female characters in fridges constantly, usually after subjecting them to some sort of degradation (Cordy, Tara, Fred, Darla).

He condones and romanticises a horribly abusive relationship which decimated his female protagonist, robs her of her agency and turns her into a victim while blaming her for the actions of her abusive partner.

And outside of his writing (and his worst and most disgusting move ever) he fired an actress for getting pregnant. Charisma was axed because her pregnancy interfered with Joss' plans for her character arc, and so he destroyed her character to punish her (Charisma has openly spoken of this) and didn't even have the courtesy to inform her that she had been fired; Charisma found out through a member of the press.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_igTbXKPck"]Felicia Day, Kristy Swanson, Julie Benz, Charisma Carpenter DragonCon 2009 Friday 5 - YouTube[/ame]
​

So no, Joss is not a feminist. He pretends to be one and allows fans to believe him to be so, but he is not, and I am tried of people insisting that he is.

 

[Kean]

I'm in about ten minds about this whole thing.

In one sense, I think it is a very well written speech. I think he delivered it perfectly. I enjoy listening to it. But on the other side, I can't help but see all the times he got it wrong. Effystonem has done a pretty stellar job in highlighting the worst of it. There's a hell of a lot more I could into. Even just his Twitter feed, which I had to unfollow because I just couldn't anymore.

But in saying that, I get identifying as something but still managing to eff it up. There are so many facets to be a feminist, some many expressions of feminism. I honestly think it is one of greatest injustices to the movement that society at large things there is just one type of feminism. So, while I see so much wrong with what he does with feminist ideals, I also see the things he did right.

However, lately, I've been thinking a lot about allys, of any marginalised or discriminated group. Not just feminist allys. And I just can't stop seeing how much they benefit from aligning themselves as supporters of the cause, and yet face none of the discrimination. It's almost a win win for them. All those I'm-a-good-person-helping-a-worthy-cause feelings and none of those lacking-in-civil-liberties-or-discrimination feelings. I can't help but see that when I look at how much benefit Joss Whedon gets from being known as a "feminist." If a woman had delivered that speech, would it be enjoying yet another victory tour on every political and cultural site of note, seven years after it was originally delivered?

I would have considered myself an ally of a lot of causes but now I can't help but see how problematic that becomes. Especially when an ally becomes the face or a movement or sub-movement.

Joss Whedon is held up of a king of kings for creating these "strong female characters" that he later subjugates and debases, but whatevs. I see the same thing happening with Kevin Feige (he directed Bridesmaids) who is throwing out these quotes in interviews of basically some variation of "I'm the lone man-God who has the magic powers to see the funny in women." The idea that women need these men to allow them be anything shows how inherently unfeminist this whole situation is.

Being known as a feminist is good business for him. Good in a way that it never really is for a woman, apart from maybe Caitlin Moran. When I tell people I'm a feminist I'm placed in a box of preconceived notions of what that means. If man says he's a feminist it's like he has been taken out of the box he was put into. He has depts that perhaps people haven't considered, dimensions never even thought of.

Throught this video's entire run, the man topic discussed has been how fantastic Joss Whedon, Godsend of Women, is, and nearly nothing about equality or feminism itself.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

My own thought is that if men and women are not equal, then marriage is bestiality. And I am married to an intelligent woman.

He could have made the series "George the Vampire Slayer" and cast a man as the lead, but what he said as one of his responses rings true: that a female vampire slayer is sexier and more watchable than a male in the same role - and also more unexpected. And Joss' writing is all about the sexy and the unexpected, bacause that's what keeps us watching.

Writing about abusive relationships is not in itself abusive. Writing about something and romanticizing it are two different things. Indeed, after the AR, I never got the idea 'wow, I have never seen that before'. Abused people going back to their abusers is not fiction; it is unfortunately quite common. They fumbled the ball on this one however - they did not examine the thought processes of either Spike or Buffy in the aftermath, mainly because they had other things to do concentrating on Dark Willow and they figured they could get away with Spike venturing across the world to regain his soul. It provides the impetus for Spike to get his soul back and every event in the Whedonverse is about drama and moving the plot along. There are no happily-ever-afters in the Whedonverse because that would end the drama. And they couldn't stake Spike because that would remove a character that was many peoples' favourite. Also in the Whedonverse, no one is mentally all that healthy - people's failings are recognizeable from real life and that includes male and female.

So no, I don't see Joss as the feminist that some people do from his writing, but I think he does support in general some of the basic tenets of feminism - until it gets in the way of the story. I see Joss as a little more Machiavellian in giving that speech - it does endear him to a certain segment of the population and there is no real fallout that he has to handle among misogynistic men, because they would not be in the audience or even know about this event anyway. And the same people would probably not know about how or why he torpedoed Charisma Carpenter.

 

[Xin Rong]

I really enjoyed this speech, moreover because as a man saying something like that is bound to draw the attention of the radical male hating feminists, although people may argue that Buffy has undertones that are anti-feminist, overall the series is the opposite. The only other option would have been to write a narrative that has no connection to reality, inequality still exists, so it needs to exist within a realistic tv show, and I think it's a good thing that Buffy doesn't just shout feminist propaganda in a way that would have made a large amount of people turn over, instead it subtly enforces some of the ideals of one of the many facets of feminism in a way that is empowering to women.

 

[The Bronze]

Joss is a talented story teller first and foremost and I think it's a little unfair that his work is often pulled apart by people looking to see if it represents their cause exactly how they'd like it to. Something bad happens to Buffy or another of the women on his shows and suddenly Joss isn't feminist enough. Tara gets killed off and apparently that's because gay people on TV are either crazy or killed off. Not enough black or asian people on his shows and it's because he has some kind of problem with them.

I find all of it completely over the top and unnecessary. Bad things happening to the women, it's not because he's anti-feminist it's because bad things happen to all of the characters on his show, it's part of the drama. Tara dying, nothing to do with her sexuality or what TV rules are supposed to dictate but because again lots of people die in the Jossverse. Not enough minorities represented, maybe there weren't many coming through the audition doors, who knows?

It's not Joss fault that people keep asking him the same question over and over and it's also not his fault if people want to hand out awards and ask him to give a speech.

What he does well is write believable characters and engaging storylines for men and women and he says he believes in equality so he gets a thumbs up from me. Whether that does or doesn't make him a feminist is largely irrelevant.

As seen above you can't please all of the people all of the time:

Joss' actions indicate that he is not a true feminist.

I honestly think it is one of greatest injustices to the movement that society at large things there is just one type of feminism.

 

[Blaze]

[MENTION=12470]The Bronze[/MENTION], I couldn't agree more with what you said.

At the others, don't get me wrong, I also agree with most of you, Joss isn't perfect and he's not the "perfect" feminist either. And yes, episodes like "Billy" are insulting to man, I won't disagree with that, I think Joss has made some less than "politically correct" episodes with less than good messages, but I do think he's done a lot of good stuff, and in the end I fully support his views as a feminist. I find sometimes people get a bit too nitpicky, the way I see it it's like eh girls, he's on our side, no he's not perfect and might not share every view that other feminist have, but he's still trying to send the right message here. Basically I think Kean got it right in saying there's many types of feminist, and I think what Joss is doing is still a step in the right directions.

As for arguments people use, I'd just like to say that I believe most aren't related to feminism, but that's just me. Like the AR, completely agree that it was so poorly written, it was really cringe worthy to see how he didn't explore the side of the victim, but I don't think he was attacking Buffy as a woman or degrading her as a woman. I don't think he was putting Spike (the "man") on a pedestal either. The whole thing was use as a way to move the story, yes that's very poor in taste, and should never have been done, but I don't think that means he's not a feminist or that he's a misogynist. I think [MENTION=12171]Ethan Reigns[/MENTION] said it best in that regards.

About Cordelia, I'm sorry but when you are an actress and you've committed to play a role, and you need a maternity leave or whatever, or being pregnant interferes with the job, I think the production has every right to tell you they can't have you act the part anymore. Obviously the baby was going to show, and they did a good thing by adapting the storyline for her, it's a shame they didn't keep her for s5, but they had to find a way to work around the pregnancy and they did. Yes it's bad that she didn't learn it from Joss himself, a bit like Alyson Hannigan learning about the ending of BtVS by a magazine, but it doesn't mean that laying her off wasn't justified. Once you have you're whole storyline set up for the season and that is changed by an actress getting pregnant, I can see how that could piss you off. To me, this is much more a vendetta act than an action against Charisma as a woman, basically she messed up his plan and he got mad, she got the short end of the straw but I don't view that as an "anti-feminist" action.

 

[white avenger]

Like most, if not all writers, Joss won't hesitate to abandon his political views and espoused causes for the sake of what he considers a good story. That's not hypocrisy, it's business. He writes stories that will sell, and any of his political or humanitarian views that he manages to slip in, any morality plays that he wants to present, have to at best advance that story as it is presented, or at least not detract from it.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I agree that I think people get a little bit too nit-picky with this issue and issues like it.

By far the most annoying one is when it went around that he hates gay people cuz he killed Tara, I find that so infuriating, and everything thats wrong with people that "support" a cause.
Same for casting races, since we've seen some brilliant character of many races across Whedons shows I'd like to believe that he casts the right actor for the right part, if all the scoobies just happened to be white, I dont have a problem with that, if that actor is the right actor for the part it shouldn't be an issue. The casting on Whedon shows is fantastic, there isn't a terrible actor among the bunch I can think of (Actually funnily enough the worst one I can think of is Ashanti in season 7, that was very much stunt casting and she should not have had that role.)

The feminist issue is very tricky, cuz he walks a very fine line. Sometimes he's wording is perfect and he makes it seem stupid that a question is being asked, but I can't help feel there is just a smidgen of "Women, look what I've given you" about him. But I do believe that he means well.

I also think it should be pointed out, no one is complaining that he writes a rape scene, no one is complaining that he puts female characters in those situations, it's how he gets them out of it that the problem. He often just neglects it after getting the talking point.

The Spike rape attempt is the biggest version of that, we see none of Buffy dealing with that and instead we get a story about how great Spike is for getting his soul, the rape isn't the problem, the aftermath is.

[MENTION=12470]About Cordelia, I'm sorry but when you are an actress and you've committed to play a role, and you need a maternity leave or whatever, or being pregnant interferes with the job, I think the production has every right to tell you they can't have you act the part anymore. Obviously the baby was going to show, and they did a good thing by adapting the storyline for her, it's a shame they didn't keep her for s5, but they had to find a way to work around the pregnancy and they did. Yes it's bad that she didn't learn it from Joss himself, a bit like Alyson Hannigan learning about the ending of BtVS by a magazine, but it doesn't mean that laying her off wasn't justified. Once you have you're whole storyline set up for the season and that is changed by an actress getting pregnant, I can see how that could piss you off. To me, this is much more a vendetta act than an action against Charisma as a woman, basically she messed up his plan and he got mad, she got the short end of the straw but I don't view that as an "anti-feminist" action.

This is a really tough one, firstly becasue Cordy as a character never should have left the show, putting the actress and backstage drama aside, Cordy wasn't ready to go and the exit we got before 'Your Welcome' was just plain rude to the fans.

But the law for maternity leave is very clear that the women doesn't have to tell her work till a certain point - I dont know is that different in the acting profession? It makes sense that it should be since you can't just be replaced temporarily in the same way you could in a normal job. And she did wait until the latest possible moment to tell them (if I'm remembering correctly) which isn't cool, I understand that it's allowed within the law, but in a job like a TV show were stories are planned and prepared up to a year in advance that doesn't seem fair to the production side.

I mean to be fair the rewrite and story we got in place is not well liked by fans, there was drops in viewers over season 4, which raised questioned about Angels renewal for season 5 becasue of this Joss pushed for an early renewal for season 6 and ended up getting canceled. Not Charismas fault, but the last minuet changes did affect the series in a big way.

But even with that, there is no reason Cordy shouldn't have been back for season 5 as a full time cast member, the reason they gave about her story being finished is total BS.

 

[EffyStonem]

About Cordelia, I'm sorry but when you are an actress and you've committed to play a role, and you need a maternity leave or whatever, or being pregnant interferes with the job, I think the production has every right to tell you they can't have you act the part anymore. Obviously the baby was going to show, and they did a good thing by adapting the storyline for her, it's a shame they didn't keep her for s5, but they had to find a way to work around the pregnancy and they did. Yes it's bad that she didn't learn it from Joss himself, a bit like Alyson Hannigan learning about the ending of BtVS by a magazine, but it doesn't mean that laying her off wasn't justified. Once you have you're whole storyline set up for the season and that is changed by an actress getting pregnant, I can see how that could piss you off. To me, this is much more a vendetta act than an action against Charisma as a woman, basically she messed up his plan and he got mad, she got the short end of the straw but I don't view that as an "anti-feminist" action.

I'm sorry but are you kidding me?! No woman should ever have to put up with being fired for procreating! It is appalling that Joss fired her for being pregnant (ie for making a personal choice with her body) and is about as un-feminist as possible. A quote from Tumblr sums it up very well:

This supposedly feminist man decided to damage the career of a woman who worked for him because she made a choice with her own body (ie - to have a baby) because that choice didn't line up with what he wanted her to do in order to embody his vision of a female character. And not only did he do that, but he treated her like crap and even went back on his stated promises to her. All because it amounted to a woman not doing what he wanted so he could have the female character on his show be just the way he wanted.

Actresses get pregnant all the time and don't get fired from their jobs. Most writers are more than happy to accommodate pregnancies and write the storylines around them (HIMYM, Law & Order SVU, Criminal Minds, Charmed, Grey's Anatomy, Alias and more have all made room for actresses' pregnancies). There is no excuse for Joss doing what he did to Charisma.

 

[Blaze]

I'm sorry but are you kidding me?! No woman should ever have to put up with being fired for procreating! It is appalling that Joss fired her for being pregnant (ie for making a personal choice with her body) and is about as un-feminist as possible. A quote from Tumblr sums it up very well:

This supposedly feminist man decided to damage the career of a woman who worked for him because she made a choice with her own body (ie - to have a baby) because that choice didn’t line up with what he wanted her to do in order to embody his vision of a female character. And not only did he do that, but he treated her like crap and even went back on his stated promises to her. All because it amounted to a woman not doing what he wanted so he could have the female character on his show be just the way he wanted.

Actresses get pregnant all the time and don't get fired from their jobs. Most writers are more than happy to accommodate pregnancies and write the storylines around them (HIMYM, Law & Order SVU, Criminal Minds, Charmed, Grey's Anatomy, Alias and more have all made room for actresses' pregnancies). There is no excuse for Joss doing what he did to Charisma.

Basically BEG already said what I wanted to say on the subject, Joss might have been an ***hole for firing her for such reason (which I agree with, he was a jerk), but truth is those last minute change did cost him a lot. Being an actress I feel isn't like just any regular job in that department. It wasn't okay of Joss to fire her, but if I was directing a movie/show and had to change a whole season based on one actor, you bet I would be dam pissed about it. It doesn't make it right, but I don't blame Joss for being mad.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Charisma said in one of the commentaries that she had to ask Joss to get permission to get her hair cut. I don't know the details of her contract, but if there is a clause that says the person's physical characteristics shall remain unchanged and she agreed to it, then she has no one to blame but herself. And seriously, an actor or actress can expect limitations in their contracts that would not be defensible in any other profession.

I have mentioned this in one of my first posts that Joss has 237 people in his production company and stories are blocked out in advance so that the screenplays are never the limiting time factor. These people include screenwriters, set designers, costumers, makeup people, location scouts, legal clearance (to get permission to block off an area or road for shooting) and a pregnancy will reset all of these functions. Charisma waited for the last possible time (since she had had a miscarriage before) to tell Joss, meaning that if she had said something earlier, there would have been time to rewrite stories and let the other people in the production company do their jobs without wasting their time.

As far as pregnancy is concerned, acting is like a number of professions (like airline pilot or military pilot) where weight must be controlled within strict limits. My wife has a cousin who was a pilot for Air Canada and if you go beyond the required weight, you lose your Airline Transport Rating.

Still, I think Joss made a decision to be petulant about it and kill her off rather than incorporate the pregnancy into the story. The disaster that was season 4 of Angel was partly caused by this, but the concept could have been different so that this was another mystical pregnancy (like "Expecting 1X12") or it was Angel's baby or it was Connor's baby or even an immaculate conception from the Powers that Be which would bring an antichrist into the world. The story they went with was much lamer than it had to be.

---------- Post added 11-01-2013 at 12:40 AM ---------- Previous post was 10-31-2013 at 10:52 PM ----------

There is another episode that hasn't been mentioned yet and that is "Family 5ABB06" and the reaction from Tara's cousin Beth who takes her to task for not agreeing to return home with her father:

"Beth: You selfish bitch!
Tara: What?
Beth: You don't care the slightest bitty bit about your family, do you? Your dad's been worried sick about you every day since you've been gone. There's a house that needs taking care of. Donny and your dad having to do for themselves while you're down here living God knows what kind of lifestyle!"

This is after undeniable proof is supplied (by Spike) that she is not a demon. This appears to be a case of cognitive dissonance where a belief is held, irrefutable proof is given of its falseness and the belief is held even more tightly.

Spike, who is always the one who knows about relationships, sees the father as having brainwashed the women into believing that they become demons on their 20th birthday in order to keep them in line. He says:

"There's no demon in there. It's just a family legend, am I right? Just a bit of spin to keep the ladies in line? You're a piece of work. I like you."

I think Joss is quite justified in showing that sometimes, women are each other's worst enemies and the worst enemies of feminism. Beth attempts to undermine Tara because the alternative would be a brave new world where women were not a man's personal shawabti and would have to carve out an identity for themselves. (A shawabti or shabti is a small statue that was buried along with an Egyptian noble and it was assumed he or she would be resurrected along with his or her master to serve him in his next life. I use this term because my wife is a member of the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities and we actually have a shabti at home here. It is turquoise in colour and about two inches high. The design is Middle Kingdom, so it may have been carved when Moses was alive.)

 

[EffyStonem]

I think Joss is quite justified in showing that sometimes, women are each other's worst enemies and the worst enemies of feminism. Beth attempts to undermine Tara because the alternative would be a brave new world where women were not a man's personal shawabti and would have to carve out an identity for themselves.

Or ....... Beth attempts to undermine Tara because Beth herself is a victim of the Maclay men and their reign of patriarchy. Beth has more than likley been beaten/emotionally abused into submission, taught to believe that her own sex in inferior and therefore she attempts to push her beliefs on to Tara, not only because this is all she knows but because she may be thinking to that if she, Beth, has to be subjected to this type of treatment, why does Tara get to escape? I think we should be looking at Beth not as an abuser, but as a victim and try to see where her misguided views have come from.

I cannot stand this whole "women are their own worst enemies" crap. Do you know why women are believed to be their own enemies; because society has made us that way. Because, from young, women are taught that other women are the enemy, that all girls are "catty" and "backstabbing" and that we must be fearful and jealous of each other. Patriarchy has created this attitude amongst women and young girls and then people turn around and try to blame us for this by saying we "are our own worst enemies."

I'm not saying there aren't women out there who haven't hurt feminism because there are. There are a lot of anti-feminist women but once again, that comes down to the effect of patriarchy. Patriarchy and those who believe in it are scared of feminism and what it means for women to have rights and freedom and so they have turned feminism into something ugly and unworthy. The results of this are women turning their backs on and speaking against an important and worthwhile cause, for fear of labels and hatred.

 

[The Bronze]

Charisma could have had a quiet word with Joss and informed him that she was considering children in the near future and that he needed to have a plan b in mind. This isn't an office job where you just bring in a temp for maternity leave and things carry on as normal. By keeping quiet until the last possible moment she affects Joss's work creatively as well as costing him financially. Given the nature of the business a drop in quality can lead to a show being cancelled and therefore she put the jobs of everyone working on the show at an increased risk. It's a completely unnecessary lack of respect and consideration for everyone involved. Joss was p***ed off? Who wouldn't be?

I agree with [MENTION=12223]EffyStonem[/MENTION] completely about Beth. She's clearly the victim of years of abuse and brainwashing, she's not the bad guy.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Or ....... Beth attempts to undermine Tara because Beth herself is a victim of the Maclay men and their reign of patriarchy. Beth has more than likley been beaten/emotionally abused into submission, taught to believe that her own sex in inferior and therefore she attempts to push her beliefs on to Tara, not only because this is all she knows but because she may be thinking to that if she, Beth, has to be subjected to this type of treatment, why does Tara get to escape? I think we should be looking at Beth not as an abuser, but as a victim and try to see where her misguided views have come from.

I cannot stand this whole "women are their own worst enemies" crap. Do you know why women are believed to be their own enemies; because society has made us that way. Because, from young, women are taught that other women are the enemy, that all girls are "catty" and "backstabbing" and that we must be fearful and jealous of each other. Patriarchy has created this attitude amongst women and young girls and then people turn around and try to blame us for this by saying we "are our own worst enemies."

I'm not saying there aren't women out there who haven't hurt feminism because there are. There are a lot of anti-feminist women but once again, that comes down to the effect of patriarchy. Patriarchy and those who believe in it are scared of feminism and what it means for women to have rights and freedom and so they have turned feminism into something ugly and unworthy. The results of this are women turning their backs on and speaking against an important and worthwhile cause, for fear of labels and hatred.

What I have bolded in the first paragraph is the cycle of abuse, where someone who has been abused becomes an abuser or a supporter of the abuse. This isn't from what she has been taught - it is from her own attitude that if I had to put up with abuse from an authority figure then everybody is going to be subject to my abuse when I am in their position. Beth is being vindictive and petulant with Tara because the one thing that she cannot stand is someone proving to her that accepting her status is her own responsibility and Tara, by living her life as a free woman, has done exactly that. This fuels the cognitive dissonance that makes her support her own status.

Being subjected to patriarchy doesn't mean you have to believe in it. I have been subjected to heirarchies before and the truth is that heirarchies exist for the edification of the top person in the heirarchy, and heirarchies victimize everyone. We have been in a society that is continually bombarded by advertising for many decades now. If you don't develop some sales resistance to ideas that you are continually being bombarded with, then you really are a rudderless ship, adrift in a sea of ideologies and wherever there is a power vacuum, someone will step in.

Beth could have said, "Good for you, you made your escape, don't look back. You have shown me the way and at some point, i will follow." I have worked with and for women who have no problem with living their lives as if patriarchy never existed. I have trained in Tae Kwon Do with women who have gone against their culture and become excellent fighters. There are many cultural archetypes for women other than just downtrodden accessories to men. Women are heads of state in a number of countries, including those where male dominance and machismo are the norm. Women have run large companies and one of them was my customer at my previous job. My wife's gransmother started a Canada-wide chain of drugstores after going to the Yukon during the gold rush era as a missionary for the Salvation Army and learning about natural cures used by the native population. The original settlers who came to North America from Europe included hardy women who lived lives of personal hardship but prevailed and these are a few of the many cultural archetypes that women can see or hear about in our era. What you believe is your choice.

 

[The Chosen]

What I have bolded in the first paragraph is the cycle of abuse, where someone who has been abused becomes an abuser or a supporter of the abuse. This isn't from what she has been taught - it is from her own attitude that if I had to put up with abuse from an authority figure then everybody is going to be subject to my abuse when I am in their position. Beth is being vindictive and petulant with Tara because the one thing that she cannot stand is someone proving to her that accepting her status is her own responsibility and Tara, by living her life as a free woman, has done exactly that. This fuels the cognitive dissonance that makes her support her own status.

I don't think this is true, and I think that the point EffyStonem was making is that Beth was so indoctrinated by her uncle's manipulations and lies that she was unable to see very far past them.

I would like to say that Cousin Beth was speaking from a purely autonomous place, but don't think she was. Her entire worldview is shaped by her patriarchy's perpetuation of the family curse.

The Charisma thing is always a weird spot for me. On one hand, yeah -- she could have mentioned something to Joss. But she'd been burned before, with the miscarriage. I understand her hesitation entirely. But I don't think Joss' dumbass reaction is proof that his feminism is fundamentally flawed. It had to do with his work being disrupted suddenly -- not the fact that Charisma was a woman. If, let's say, James Marsters decided to shave his head and tattoo his face purple, I can imagine that similar reactions would have occurred.

Also, as someone stated above, Charisma knew why it was important to either not get pregnant or let people know she was pregnant further in advance while working on Angel. I don't think either party is blame free.