Joyce the parent

Professor Walsh

Feminist slayerette
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Something I like about Joyce, is that I think the character is a realistic portrayal of a parent. Rather than a stereotypical Good Mother (TM) adhering to "the rules" of one particular parenting philosophy, she's finding her way as she goes, doing some good choices and some bad ones. I think it would be interesting with a thread where we can discuss Joyce as the portrait of a parent - what's good and bad, what's believable and not. Anyone?
 
Joyce did good. The reason she did good, like you said, was because she was a realistic character and mother. We see Joyce at her breaking point in season 2, when she tells Buffy that if she left the house, she shouldn't bother coming back. How the scene was wrote is stunning, she dealt with Buffy the way most human beings would. Joyce was immediately thrown into this whirlwind of Slayers and vampires, and that was her response. It is the most realistic response an audience could possibly ask for. Of course Joyce was going to react that way, she was scared for Buffy. Clearly, Joyce regretted telling Buffy not to come back at the end of the episode. But I think even if she hadn't, Buffy would have left anyway.

Team Joyce!
 
P
prophecygrrl
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I find her to be so real and even though she didn't do well most of the time, she was a good parent. She's usually too busy for her daughter, though, which probably was a good thing for Buffy who had to sneak out of the house at night.
 
I have to agree with Zo, while the portrayal of Joyce may have been "real" and honest there was a lot about her parenting that I honestly found appalling. Her siding with Ted when Buffy expressed misgivings about him, how she could wash blood out of Buffy's clothing for 2 years and not question it? Kicking Buffy out when she couldn't handle what was happening in front of her and then those horrible things she said on Buffy's return. While that all may be honest it is also horribly selfish. And as much as I adore B/A how the Hell did Joyce not voice an opposition to that relationship until S3? How was she so unaware about what was going on in her daughter's life?

I also have to question Buffy's estimation of her mother in "Forever", to my eyes Joyce never had the answers for Buffy. To me it looked like all the emotional trauma Buffy experienced as the Slayer and from her life was something she went through without her mother's counsel or understanding.

Joyce wasn't the worst, but I wouldn't be handing her parent of the year awards any time soon either.
 
Z
zobothehobo
If I had been more inspired to elaborate on my opinion, this is what I would have written.
brinkster130
brinkster130
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Plus she was a single parent with an absent father. As a single parent I can tell you that it is an exhausting job, and one where there are frequently no "right" answers.

I thought they portrayed Joyce perfectly. And I love when she decided to go slaying with Buffy, and when she was palling around with Spike. I like Joyce. 🙂
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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I think to a degree she was meant to 'piss people off' so the audience could relate easier to Buffy.
 
Z
zobothehobo
I think so too
I think to a degree she was meant to 'piss people off' so the audience could relate easier to Buffy.

Yeah, I get that too. She had to mess up A LOT in order for Buffy to function as was necessary.
 
I think Joyce should get points for making Buffy feel loved, that on its own is a very important feeling. Cordelia's parents for example bought her everything but she didn't feel their love, and that's the same with Willow's parents.
 
While Joyce may have been "real", I don't think she is a good real. She's shown to be selfish and ignorant on more than one occasion. I read her as a someone who wasn't willing to let go of her indepence just yet when she had Buffy and that shows in her parenting style. She doesn't pay attention to Buffy's actions, her entire life (washing blood out of her clothes without question and the relationship with Angel come to mind) until the situation escalates and she has no other choice but to act. And in one of those cases she kicks her daughter out of her house and tells her to never come back. Somebody who does that is not a good parent, period. Your child is your child, no matter what they do.
If I didn't have such a low opinion of her already, I would have then. What she said to Buffy when she came back and earlier to Giles certainly didn't endear her to me. She doesn't take the blame for her actions and that is a horrible trait in a person and a worse in a parent.

The only things I give her any credit for is her reaching out to Buffy and come to patrol was in the "Gingerbread" episode (and see how well that turned out), when she tells Angelus to stay away and the moment with the axe in School Hard.

I have seen much better "real" parents, fictional and real.
 
I wonder how real-life parents feel about Joyce, versus teens and those in their 20's without kids.

I don't think you can fault her for the way she dealt with her slayer daughter. It tough enough having a "normal" child.

Making mistakes is part of being a parent, and I think Joyce did great. I don't know that we can fault her for Ted. He was a pretty good cook, and Buffy did act like a spoiled brat. We are omniscient while watching the episode, while Joyce isn't. She saw wonderful Ted, who actually did seem like an o.k. guy.

She stuck by Ted, was nice to Buffy's friends, and tried to be supportive.
 
Her siding with Ted when Buffy expressed misgivings about him, how she could wash blood out of Buffy's clothing for 2 years and not question it?
Those two things actually make me furious about Joyce. The fact that she would take Ted's side a man over her daughter is just sick imo. I have seen many situations like that in real life with friends and trust me it is never pretty.
Now the clothing thing is another big one. How can you not notice anything? I take that as her being delusional.

Later on I do really like Joyce and think she did her best. I don't know if I would call her the realest parent portrayal wise but I do think she was good. After knowing what Buffy is that can't be easy, but sometimes early on she was just I don't even know the word.
 
Kean
Kean
The blood thing is an argument for neglect.
Well, someone said up there "she really pissed me off as a parent, a lot" well, I don't know about all of your parents, but they really piss me off sometimes.... Its the way it goes, but as for Joyce, I really feel like she always had Buffy (and I suppose dawns, haha) best interests in mind. The fights they had, I believed. When she told her not to even think about coming back if she left at the end of season 2.... I mean, yea, she didn't mean that, she obviously wants her to come back, but, like reality, you sometimes say things you don't mean, my mom and dad both have... I honestly always thought Joyce was a great mom.

Also, if you look at her from Joyces perspective before she found out buffy was the slayer, you see your kid getting in trouble, out late, sneaking in and out... etc... you're going to increase the rules. I really always liked joyce as a parent.
 
Goby
Goby
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Those two things actually make me furious about Joyce. The fact that she would take Ted's side a man over her daughter is just sick imo. I have seen many situations like that in real life with friends and trust me it is never pretty.
Now the clothing thing is another big one. How can you not notice anything? I take that as her being delusional.

Later on I do really like Joyce and think she did her best. I don't know if I would call her the realest parent portrayal wise but I do think she was good. After knowing what Buffy is that can't be easy, but sometimes early on she was just I don't even know the word.

But remember the entire town was like that. I don't know that they ever really acknowledged living on a Hellmouth until Buffy received her umbrella award (Off topic---what a great moment that was!)
 
I wonder how real-life parents feel about Joyce, versus teens and those in their 20's without kids.

I'm a real life parent. My son is two years old and he's such a handful, but I'm so glad I have my husband helping me. I can't imagine being a single parent, especially a single parent with a teenager. I think Joyce was a little lost after the divorce, burying herself in work and not paying much attention to Buffy. That's not a good thing, but understandable.

To be honest, I can't believe that Joyce would wash blood off Buffy's clothes and keep silent. Joyce does put a blind eye to a lot of things, much like most of the people in Sunnydale, but blood on clothes? I think there's also a case of being detached from Buffy because Buffy detached herself from her mother. I remember Joyce reading a book about parenting in one episode in S1, perhaps she thought since Buffy never talked to her, she'd better leave her alone and Buffy will come to her when she's ready. I think Joyce becomes a better parent after she learns about Buffy being a Slayer, when Buffy let her in.

And my reaction to my son being a Slayer who goes out at night to fight creepy vampires and demons? I'd handle it far worse than Joyce.
 
I think she did ok. When the show started she was just coming out of a divorce, and living in a new place as a single parent. She gets better (read: more supportive) as the show progresses, so she was learning and improving. I think she had good intentions, but a lot of younger people forget that us parents are people too😛. I don't know what I'm doing. I know what I want for my daughter, but I don't know how to ensure she gets there. I want her to be healthy and well adjusted with the ability to have healthy, stable relationships - you know, all the things I never had. But how do you help form a newborn to the adult you hope they become??? It is scarier than any big bad they've ever shown on Buffy.

I agree that "Ted" had me seeing red😉 You don't choose anything over your child, especially not some new person. period. (or at least I don't) I've seen it IRL and it is aweful.
 
Goby
Goby
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I think there's too much weight being placed on washing Buffy's bloody laundry. I highly doubt secret-Slayer girl would toss every bloody peice of clothing into the hamper; she probably took care of the heavy stuff herself and left the smaller spots on clothes her mom would do.

Also, to the comment about not knowing much about Buffy's life: She had to keep her Slayer identity a secret, which was pretty much her extra ciricular activity if not primary. When one has a secret that is a huge part of their lives, doesn't that (secrets) seep into every other aspect of your life? How could she explain Angel? That would lead to questions which might blow her cover. The only reason Buffy blew her cover was because there was no turning back from dusting a vamp to protect her mother right infront of her. I know that I'm like that, my parents get on me for not knowing much about my life even when I was living with them. I was too busy out and living it to come home and discuss it, discuss people they don't know, what's the point? Also, sometimes, I didn't want them to know. I was too independent at that age and I think Buffy was too.

As for the Ted thing, yeah that was lame. However, how lonely was Joyce? She found a man who was willing to take care of her, she was probably in a desperate place emotionally. And then her daughter, who's known for getting in trouble, starts to get moody over her new "dad." Typical, I'm sure Joyce figured; a single parent's kid is acting up over a new parental figure in their life. So, to say Joyce was selfish here ignores the fact that Joyce may have thought Buffy was selfish and as a parent who wants the best for her kid - stability and a family - she felt it out a bit longer (which challenges Joyce "being selfish."). Not saying it was right but I doubt if she thought it was any more than Buffy reacting to a potential new father she would've ended it.

Joyce didn't actually kick her out of the house. Really, does anyone think she meant that? She even says, "Mom's not perfect, ok, I handled it badly." In the morning, she went to check Buffy's room for her, probably to appologize! We love so many characters for their faults yet are coming down on Joyce for hers. She wasn't a single parents for very long - from how I understand it was right before Sunnydale. She was learning too. Anyway, telling Buffy that she couldn't come back if she left the house was her last ditch effort to get her daughter to stay after physically being stopped by Buffy. That scene was beautiful, as if balanced Joyce the mother with Joyce the person. If she wouldn't have tried to have given Buffy a bluff at the last moment in such an authoritive mother tone then I could see her being criticised for that, too.

I'm not necessarily a fan, I like her well enough, I just think she's being judged here rather harshly! I think she did pretty well for raising a daughter who burnt down a gymnasium, had to make her move, probably a factor in the divorce, who snuck out and was cutting classes, was witty beyond belief, who didn't listen to her (did Joyce ever get that dress she wanted from the mall in Bad Eggs, hmm?) and who didn't tell her a damn thing when she layed on her shoulder in "Innocence." She tried to understand in so many ways once she knew the truth and, in her own mother way, she did. As annoying as her questions and statements may have been, they were all outta understanding for a lifestyle she had just been introduced to.
 
Goby
Goby
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X
xfivebyfive
I completely agree.
Tome
Tome
Really like this post, J. Good work.
nightshade
nightshade
[No message]
Those two things actually make me furious about Joyce. The fact that she would take Ted's side a man over her daughter is just sick imo. I have seen many situations like that in real life with friends and trust me it is never pretty.
Now the clothing thing is another big one. How can you not notice anything? I take that as her being delusional.

Later on I do really like Joyce and think she did her best. I don't know if I would call her the realest parent portrayal wise but I do think she was good. After knowing what Buffy is that can't be easy, but sometimes early on she was just I don't even know the word.

Well with ted tho, everyone was under the drugs he put in the food... I mean her friends were for ted and against her to.... I'm not sure you can judge her as a parent for that. As for clothing, I think she probably just blocked it out, because it was to hard to discuss, and for that I think maybe it was a mistake, but I also thing that made it more realistic.... parents make mistakes all the time, no one is perfect... But, had she confronted buffy about it before, would it have helped? Maybe it would have made the end of season 2 less dramatic, but she might have reacted the same way no matter when buffy talked to her about it.... I thik Joyce said it best "great parenting form.... little shaky on the dismount".
 
I think she had good intentions, but a lot of younger people forget that us parents are people too😛. I don't know what I'm doing. I know what I want for my daughter, but I don't know how to ensure she gets there. I want her to be healthy and well adjusted with the ability to have healthy, stable relationships - you know, all the things I never had. But how do you help form a newborn to the adult you hope they become??? It is scarier than any big bad they've ever shown on Buffy.
.
I think this is one of the best things I've ever read about parenting, on any website or in any book!! I remember when my oldest was a newborn and was having feeding problems- the awareness at how tiny they are and how helpless you are at times was terrifying! I've never felt like that in my life.

I just think it's fascinating that all of the other characters have such big flaws & make bad choices but Joyce is the one judged most harshly. I think she is a good parent not because she's perfect but because of her relationship with Buffy.

The other situations don't bother me quite as much as her appeal to Angel in The Prom
. It makes me doubly angry that everyone was trying to tell Buffy what to do with her life. Joyce going behind Buffy's back was not like her, & the fact is that this 18 year old needed to make her own decisions about her life. I'm not saying that Angel's decision to leave was wrong or that Joyce was wrong to be concerned, but Buffy needed to make that decision for herself. She needed the freedom to make mistakes & learn from them. And I give you all permission to copy & save this paragraph and post it to me in 8 years when my oldest turns 18 LOL! Because, like Joyce I'm not a perfect parent. I don't do everything right. I yell too much, I let them watch too much TV & eat too much junk food. At times I may be too strict. I'm learning & growing as I go along.
 
Goby
Goby
That was pretty smart too! Parents make mistakes all the time. I think the secret is to not destroy their souls when you mess up. Trust me, I've seen enough broken souls, and those souls are usually broken in childhood. :(
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