"Kick his ass:" Xander was right

[Kean]

You guys sympathize with Buffy and never really try to see the Scoobies' side of thing. I understand it's because she's the heroine and we see how she suffers more than the others.

But saying that they're NOT her friends? That Angel is the only one who understands? Who's by Buffy's side now? Who never left her side (leave out the very few fights and disagreements the gang go through over the years) Xander and Willow are the ones who never left her side, like it or not, no matter how things get ugly between them, ْXander and Willow always stick by Buffy. Angel left, Riley left, Spike left... and who's still with her helping her through her journey? Xander and Willow.

Xander could have went on living a normal life seeing as he has no powers but he stuck around to the end. Willow could've went to a better college but instead she chose the one Buffy went to. Doesn't that count for loyalty and friendship? Surviving those fights and disagreements that went through the friendship just shows how storing it really is.

Physically being there doesn't mean that Buffy's friends were there for her emotionally. It doesn't mean they understood her, in fact we were shown countless times that they in fact do not understand her too well. Just because The Scoobies stayed with Buffy doesn't mean they are automatically without fault and should be exempt from criticism. They were there for the Slayer, that goes without saying but that wasn't always the case for Buffy the girl.

 

[sosa lola]

Physically being there doesn't mean that Buffy's friends were there for her emotionally. It doesn't mean they understood her, in fact we were shown countless times that they in fact do not understand her too well. Just because The Scoobies stayed with Buffy doesn't mean they are automatically without fault and should be exempt from criticism. They were there for the Slayer, that goes without saying but that wasn't always the case for Buffy the girl.

I never said they were saints. Heck, they're far from it (Buffy included) but my argument was against that they were never friends to Buffy, which is wrong on so many levels. They had been there for Buffy emotionally as well as physically: Willow was always there for Buffy when it comes to boyfriend problems, Xander was there for Buffy in Phases "“heck, he gets a star for not saying "I told you so" and being understanding about Buffy's pain with Angel- and he was there in The Freshmen when Buffy needed a confident boost, same goes when the potentials doubted Buffy in Dirty Girls and I'm sure there are many other times where Xander and Willow emotionally assisted Buffy.

Xander and Willow could have had much better lives if they were away from Buffy, but in the end, they chose her over themselves. That's selfless on its own and shows so much loyalty.

Who would have wanted to go back to all of that? Leaving was a little thoughtless. And she realized that, and that's why she came back. The Scoobies and Joyce responded horribly, in a way I don't think they had a right to, had they honestly been trying to understand Buffy's point of view.

I think the fact that they were angry with her shows that they actually cared about her. If they were natural about the whole thing, then it would mean her departure didn't affect them at all. Giles was able to understand what Buffy went through because he's looking at the situation from a watcher's point of view. Joyce at the moment saw Buffy as her daughter, not the slayer. Xander and Willow saw her as their friend, not the slayer.

Granted, it was badly handled by all of them. I especially hated that they chose a big party and the fact that Willow was ignoring Buffy during it. I think it just sunk how much they were angry at Buffy for taking off like that. Because if you see their initial reactions to having Buffy back, Joyce pulling her into a hug and Xander's tearful eyes, you can see how much they actually missed her and were scared for her.

What I'm doing here is looking at the situation from both sides "“I always do that whenever Buffy had some conflict with her friends or her boyfriends- and frankly I can sympathize with both sides.

 

[Kean]

I never said they were saints. Heck, they're far from it (Buffy included) but my argument was against that they were never friends to Buffy, which is wrong on so many levels. They had been there for Buffy emotionally as well as physically: Willow was always there for Buffy when it comes to boyfriend problems, Xander was there for Buffy in Phases "“heck, he gets a star for not saying "I told you so" and being understanding about Buffy's pain with Angel- and he was there in The Freshmen when Buffy needed a confident boost, same goes when the potentials doubted Buffy in Dirty Girls and I'm sure there are many other times where Xander and Willow emotionally assisted Buffy.

I didn't say they were never friends to Buffy, or if I did I didn't mean to but I really and truly believe they are not the friends that they were made out to be. I still think they lack an understanding of Buffy. That's just what I see when I watch the show, especially in the latter seasons.

The Scoobies and Giles throwing Buffy out at the end of Season 7 displays, to me anyway, how far they had drifted, it was the culmination of it in fact. There was no loyalty in that action. For every Phases, Freshamn and Dirty Girls there is a Passion, Becoming, Revelations, Season bloody Six! and Empty Places.

We won't ever agree on this. We see totally different things when we watch the show.

 

[sosa lola]

We won't ever agree on this. We see totally different things when we watch the show.

Perhaps we do. I think you see the Scoobies as "Buffy's friends" while I see them as individuals of their own. Just as Buffy has her own problems, they have theirs, too. For example, why didn't Buffy invite Xander to Christmas in her house "“after she invited Faith- when she knew that he was escaping his parents' fighting? She wasn't being a friend in this episode, but then I look at why it slipped Buffy's mind, and the reason is because she was too caught up with what's happening with Angel to notice Xander's lousy Christmas. And I give her a pass. I do the same with the Scoobies as well. That's why I don't tend to blame and take sides, I like to see a situation as a fifty-fifty.

As for Xander and Willow, I see them as the most loyal, because they're still fighting with Buffy. Xander could have quit after losing an eye and Anya, but he still sticks by Buffy's side. Willow could have finished college and made a life of her own, but she still sticks with Buffy. Disagreements and fights are due to happen, there's no such thing as flowery friendships where friends always agree with each other and choose each other. But when it really counts, Xander and Willow always fight with Buffy. Just look how they jumped to help her get rid of the zombies in Dead Man's Party when they were throwing insults at each other seconds ago. It was then when they discovered that their petty issues didn't matter anymore. What matters if them sticking together.

Out of curiosity, what did the Scoobies do in Passion?

 

[Kana]

Totally agree. Willow alluded to this issue in DMP when she said it was difficult not having someone to talk to about her problems. In short it wasn't always about Buffy.

 

[Kean]

Perhaps we do. I think you see the Scoobies as "Buffy's friends" while I see them as individuals of their own. Just as Buffy has her own problems, they have theirs, too. For example, why didn't Buffy invite Xander to Christmas in her house "“after she invited Faith- when she knew that he was escaping his parents' fighting? She wasn't being a friend in this episode, but then I look at why it slipped Buffy's mind, and the reason is because she was too caught up with what's happening with Angel to notice Xander's lousy Christmas. And I give her a pass. I do the same with the Scoobies as well. That's why I don't tend to blame and take sides, I like to see a situation as a fifty-fifty.

As for Xander and Willow, I see them as the most loyal, because they're still fighting with Buffy. Xander could have quit after losing an eye and Anya, but he still sticks by Buffy's side. Willow could have finished college and made a life of her own, but she still sticks with Buffy. Disagreements and fights are due to happen, there's no such thing as flowery friendships where friends always agree with each other and choose each other. But when it really counts, Xander and Willow always fight with Buffy. Just look how they jumped to help her get rid of the zombies in Dead Man's Party when they were throwing insults at each other seconds ago. It was then when they discovered that their petty issues didn't matter anymore. What matters if them sticking together.

Out of curiosity, what did the Scoobies do in Passion?

Your right, I do tend to see Buffy's side more than the Scoobies. I tend to be more invested in her story than anyone elses.

As for Passion, I was referring to Xander in Giles' apartment and his 'I told you so' to Buffy, rubbing it in her face and general disregard to what she had to do and what it would mean to her. In saying all that Xander was hurt and Buffy had messed up on a fatal level. I just cannot help but empathise with Buffy rather than Xander.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

Wow some of you are really harsh.

The point was, Willow was working on a spell to bring back Angel. Buffy was not unwilling to kill Angelus, but she wanted Angel back.

If she'd have known Willow was working in the spell she may have been able to do something.

Xander was out of order.

 

[Da Letter Jay]

I think I would have tried to understand Xander's perspective more, however, he completely lost my favor when he uttered "faster pussycat kill kill".

 

[DoctorWhovian]

I think I would have tried to understand Xander's perspective more, however, he completely lost my favor when he uttered "faster pussycat kill kill".

I lost respect for Xander in S2, but started to completely dislike him when he began dating Anya.

So it's ok for him to date a thousand year old ex demon who has killed God knows how many men, but it's not for Buffy?

Also in S7 when Anya started to kill again, Xander tried to stop Buffy from killing her.

 

[AgentX7k]

That's one reason I dislike Xander the most, his hypocrisy. Anya killed for 1,000+ years with a soul and he marries her, Angel killed for about 100 or something without a soul and he hates him plus tries to have him killed.. It also comes across as some weird form of racism/bigotry, like Gunn not caring about demons in Season 3 of Angel. Just because alot don't have souls and are violent it's not fair to judge an entire group because of it, I mean they are literally judging people based on their skin color, ok and maybe some physiologically differences but that's still just as bad.

 

[sosa lola]

Xander didn't seem to mind Buffy/Angel in S3, and he grew to love Anya after a long time of being with her. It was only sex at the beginning. There is a little hypocrisy in his actions, but I think it's understandable. The Scoobies barely met a vengeance demon Anya. They only knew her as a human and she tried hard to be one of them. Besides, with Angel, Xander was in love with Buffy, it's understandable why he resented him. Then Angel lost his soul, and there's a chance he'll lose it again if he got another happy.

Selfless was the big blow that opened Xander's eyes to how Buffy felt in S2. Notice how after Selfless, his attitude toward Spike gradually changes to the better. And he becomes indirectly supportive toward Buffy's relationship with him. So Xander does develop and change after being put in the same situation as Buffy in S2.

As for Passion, I was referring to Xander in Giles' apartment and his 'I told you so' to Buffy, rubbing it in her face and general disregard to what she had to do and what it would mean to her. In saying all that Xander was hurt and Buffy had messed up on a fatal level. I just cannot help but empathise with Buffy rather than Xander.

Part of Xander's character is his hot-temper, which I think he took after his father, when he's hurt, he lashes out. I think by S7, he was able to keep it under control, even though it slips out from time to time. It is an annoying character flaw. I do sympathize with Buffy in that scene, but I don't really hate Xander. He had been quiet about how he really feels for a long time, he had so many chances to say, "I told you so." But he never did, until Angelus killed one of them, then it was too hard to keep his anger inside.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Xander didn't seem to mind Buffy/Angel in S3, and he grew to love Anya after a long time of being with her. It was only sex at the beginning. There is a little hypocrisy in his actions, but I think it's understandable. The Scoobies barely met a vengeance demon Anya. They only knew her as a human and she tried hard to be one of them. Besides, with Angel, Xander was in love with Buffy, it's understandable why he resented him. Then Angel lost his soul, and there's a chance he'll lose it again if he got another happy.

Selfless was the big blow that opened Xander's eyes to how Buffy felt in S2. Notice how after Selfless, his attitude toward Spike gradually changes to the better. And he becomes indirectly supportive toward Buffy's relationship with him. So Xander does develop and change after being put in the same situation as Buffy in S2.



Part of Xander's character is his hot-temper, which I think he took after his father, when he's hurt, he lashes out. I think by S7, he was able to keep it under control, even though it slips out from time to time. It is an annoying character flaw. I do sympathize with Buffy in that scene, but I don't really hate Xander. He had been quiet about how he really feels for a long time, he had so many chances to say, "I told you so." But he never did, until Angelus killed one of them, then it was too hard to keep his anger inside.

I am so happy to see you keep coming back to defend Xander's actions. I completely agree... I just don't have the energy to keep coming back to repeat myself. LOL

 

[sosa lola]

I am so happy to see you keep coming back to defend Xander's actions. I completely agree... I just don't have the energy to keep coming back to repeat myself. LOL

It'll help if someone defended with me *hint, hint* 😀

I honestly don't think that Xander is a saint and I agree that he's a really flawed character, I disliked a lot of his actions. I dislike a lot of his qualities, but sometimes I think fans come too hard on him, because while he makes so many mistakes and bad calls, they're done with understandable reasons, if not usually the right ones, but still understandable.

 

[BuffyElevated]

It'll help if someone defended with me *hint, hint* 😀

I honestly don't think that Xander is a saint and I agree that he's a really flawed character, I disliked a lot of his actions. I dislike a lot of his qualities, but sometimes I think fans come too hard on him, because while he makes so many mistakes and bad calls, they're done with understandable reasons, if not usually the right ones, but still understandable.

See and the very reason I love him so much is because he's flawed. I love that he is the only one out of the Scoobies with no supernatural powers and that he speaks his mind no matter what. I love that even though he might not be right, he is so passionate about everything, just like most people. I like characters I can identify with, and I would definitely have to say that I identified most with Xander through high school... Not only was he the most real, but I loved a lot of his geeky, random funny lines. 🙂
If people would stop and put themselves in his shoes they might rethink their opinions on that he was so wrong. Is it so wrong to want someone dead who has killed someone you're close to? Is it so wrong to withhold information from someone when it would probably do more damage to them emotionally than telling a little white lie would?
The thing people keep missing here is that Buffy was off to go fight ANGELUS, not ANGEL. It wasn't like she was marching off to battle the guy she'd been cuddling and kissing for the past year... It was the guy who'd been stalking her, leaving these creepy little hints of his intentions, and then murdering one of them and then setting the scene that would ultimately break Giles and cloud his vision of right and wrong as well. And Buffy wasn't dealing with someone she could have the cops lock up for what he had done, either, so what was she supposed to do? Just beat on him till something happened? No... Angelus had already proven that he was more than willing and very capable of killing them. Why should Buffy go easy on him? She should have 'kicked his ass', as Xander told her to do. Maybe he shouldn't have twisted Willow's message to Buffy, but whatever... My point is that his actions were not horrible and they were completely understandable. Maybe the fact that he told her Willow said it was wrong, but his actions as a whole were NOT, IMO, and I will stand beside that theory till the day I die.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

Xander didn't seem to mind Buffy/Angel in S3.

Hmm that's why when he first found out he was back, he got Faith to try and kill him, despite the fact that he knew he wasn't evil.
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and he grew to love Anya after a long time of being with her. It was only sex at the beginning. There is a little hypocrisy in his actions, but I think it's understandable. The Scoobies barely met a vengeance demon Anya. They only knew her as a human and she tried hard to be one of them. Besides, with Angel, Xander was in love with Buffy, it's understandable why he resented him. Then Angel lost his soul, and there's a chance he'll lose it again if he got another happy.

That makes it worse. The fact that Xander hated Angel for simply dating Buffy shows how pathetic he was. He wouldn't even give him a chance, despite the fact that Angel helped save their lives on several occasions.
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Selfless was the big blow that opened Xander's eyes to how Buffy felt in S2. Notice how after Selfless, his attitude toward Spike gradually changes to the better. And he becomes indirectly supportive toward Buffy's relationship with him. So Xander does develop and change after being put in the same situation as Buffy in S2.

How did his attitutde change? He may have been less mean to him, but surely that was because there was a big war about to happen?

Besides it was a little too late. He had no sympathy for Buffy after what had happened. She had killed the person she loved more than anyone and all he could do was be nasty to her and judge her.

Poor Xander having the almost go through the same thing.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Maybe he shouldn't have twisted Willow's message to Buffy, but whatever... My point is that his actions were not horrible and they were completely understandable. Maybe the fact that he told her Willow said it was wrong, but his actions as a whole were NOT, IMO, and I will stand beside that theory till the day I die.

I can even agree with this statement of yours. It's merely that we weigh the components differently.

I consider the point you seem to see as "collaterally wrong" to be the central reason why I judge his action in the scene to be very wrong indeed, one that cannot ever be justified. The "wrongness" is all about Willow (who innocently had her trust betrayed), not about Angel/Angelus (whose armageddon-bent ass was kickable with impunity according to any but the very strictest of pacifist ethics).

 

[BuffyElevated]

I see your point, too, and I respect it... I just love Xander, and in his position I probably would have done the same thing. 😉

 

[sosa lola]

I don't know if I'd have lied to Buffy about Willow's message, but I'm sure as hell would have preferred she killed Angel. Yep, I'm allowed to be scared. 😀

Hmm that's why when he first found out he was back, he got Faith to try and kill him, despite the fact that he knew he wasn't evil.

Perhaps I should have said after Revelations 🙂 Notice that Xander helped Buffy save Angel in Amends and wanted to help them solve their argument in The Zeppo. Then in Graduation Part 1, here's this exchange:

Oz: Okay. Killer of the Dead. That's our boy, and here's a vamp that walked away from it.
Willow: Does it talk about the cure?
Oz: Damn.
Buffy: Nothing?
Oz: No, it's in here, but...
Willow: (reading over his shoulder) Wait, completely reversed the effects. Oh.
Buffy: What?
Xander: Come on guys, the suspense is killing Angel.

Which shows that Xander doesn't want Angel dead.

That makes it worse. The fact that Xander hated Angel for simply dating Buffy shows how pathetic he was. He wouldn't even give him a chance, despite the fact that Angel helped save their lives on several occasions.

It shows how jealous he was, a human emotion that we all feel when the girl we love chooses to be with someone else. It makes us dislike the person she loves.

I also think that Buffy choosing a vampire over him is a blow to the gut. Not to forget, Xander's hate for vampires started as early as The Harvest due to the death of his friend Jesse. "I don't like vampires."

So it's more complicated than "Xander resents Angel for dating Buffy". Besides, disliking Angel didn't mean that he wanted him dead. If he did, he would have cheered Kendra on when she suggested they kill Angel. Instead, he said, "Angel is our friend. Except I don't like him," showing that he's against killing Angel.

How did his attitutde change? He may have been less mean to him, but surely that was because there was a big war about to happen?

- Taking Spike back in Him, regardless of his feelings for him.

- Working together with Spike in Him.

- When Anya asked Xander to back her up in her 'we must kill Spike' argument, Xander chose to ignore her in Never Leave Me.

- Instead of blaming Spike, like Willow did, Xander suggested that it wasn't Spike's fault that he's killing, it was probably because The First had triggered him.

- Casting Buffy a supportive smile when she expressed her need to rescue Spike from the First.

- In Get It Done, Xander was the only one who considered that Spike can bring the demon, when everybody even Buffy had underestimated Spike.

- In Lies My Parents Told Me, Xander gave Spike a pat on the shoulder for support.

Besides it was a little too late. He had no sympathy for Buffy after what had happened. She had killed the person she loved more than anyone and all he could do was be nasty to her and judge her.

Because he had never been there. Granted, he was being an ass and a bad friend, but he didn't understand why Buffy felt this much love for someone who wasn't a human. He'll figure it out when he dates Anya, because even when she became a vengeance demon, he still loved her.

 

[Relic]

I would without doubt, lied to her. I would have done this because in this situation I theoretically view from Xanders shoes...the lie needed told and serves a better purpose than the truth, hang with this post and maybe you'll see where I am coming from.

Buffy does not demonstrate to Xander that she's willing or even able to kill Angelus, up until the point that she goes there to stop him after he has all the things necessary to end the world. She finally is at the point where she has successfully compartmentalized Angel from Angelus. Willows statement could tear down that divide. For that matter, from Kendra, to Miss Calender to even Buffy, Xander knows vampires can kill people and are very dangerous. He is not going into this discussion thinking Buffy will kick Angelus ass so much as hoping she can. As Joss said he made like a general going into battle and gave her the tools he thought she needed to get the job done.

What might have she done with the information if he had told her... and try to look at the possibilities through Xanders eyes not the viewers... She could have done nothing and went about business or she could have stalled for time because of hope of getting Angel back. Stalling for time might get her killed but the bigger threat is the 'time bomb' that is Acathala.

As it stands by what actually happened, she didn't seal Acathala in time for Angel not to be sucked into hell because she made with the whole "I love you close your eyes" bit. I always wondered why she killed Angel knowing that he had turned again. I also wondered what might have come to be if Angelus faked it and moved last minute before she ran him through as Acathala was drawing that foreshortened breath. Maybe Buffy would have been the one to vacuumed into hell?

In my eyes Xander saying what he did is no different than having two friends in common; one a dope dealer (Willow) and one an ex addict (Buffy)

You know that your friend the dealer has something your friend the addict wants/needs and this something has proven to be dangerous to both her and everyone on multiple occasions. You know your addict friend is just a few days sober and the dealer is her only chance of supply. Your ex addict friend is planning on leaving town and starting over. But your Drug dealer friend wants to get the old gang together and party, tells you hey go find "Barbiturate Buffy" and we'll have a time so great... it'll be just like old times.

Do you serve better by telling your ex addict friend the truth (as a lie is a lie, from white lie to lie of omission) and saying "You know, happy pill Will is coming back to town with a sack full of smack, and remembers you fondly. she wants to get together and pass the hookah. I have faith that you will do the right thing and resist temptaions..just thought you might want to know before you left town."

Keep in mind that it's too late not to just not say the message...drugs have dulled your mind and your not the sharpest knife in the drawer anymore. So you say "Happy Pill Will says....." What?

Do you live with the circumstances of both parties possibly hating you, while trying to protect one friend from another friends dangerous generosity?

Honesty has it's purposes and in general is a noble, worthwhile thing.

But on occasions it can be a destructive force as well. I've saw that on personal levels throughout my life. No black and white will change that.

 

[PurplePoof]

I don't think there was anything heroic or "right" about Xander neglecting to tell Buffy that Willow was trying the spell again. In fact, I didn't buy a lot of Xander's "moral outrage" regarding Angelus. It all came down to the fact that Xander hated Angel period...good or bad. His little temper tantrums about Jenny and the like were motivated by his childish jealousy and he finally found a route by which his Angel bashing was now "righteous" and justified. Something tells me if he'd been dating Anya in season 2, she'd reverted to a vengeance demon and killed Jenny...his stance would have been significantly different.