"Kick his ass:" Xander was right

[caitaintdead]

I agree with you purplepoof, but we should all know by now that Xander can do no wrong because it's all these mistakes that we should like!

 

[PurplePoof]

Ha! Indeed...just an adorable character quirk...NOT!

 

[DoctorWhovian]

Perhaps I should have said after Revelations 🙂 Notice that Xander helped Buffy save Angel in Amends and wanted to help them solve their argument in The Zeppo. Then in Graduation Part 1, here's this exchange:

Oz: Okay. Killer of the Dead. That's our boy, and here's a vamp that walked away from it.
Willow: Does it talk about the cure?
Oz: Damn.
Buffy: Nothing?
Oz: No, it's in here, but...
Willow: (reading over his shoulder) Wait, completely reversed the effects. Oh.
Buffy: What?
Xander: Come on guys, the suspense is killing Angel.

Which shows that Xander doesn't want Angel dead..

He acted like he cared. Do you think he would have gave a crap if Angel had died?

It shows how jealous he was, a human emotion that we all feel when the girl we love chooses to be with someone else. It makes us dislike the person she loves.

I also think that Buffy choosing a vampire over him is a blow to the gut. Not to forget, Xander's hate for vampires started as early as The Harvest due to the death of his friend Jesse. "I don't like vampires."

Xander hated Angel. He didn't just 'dislike' him. He didn't give a crap that Angel was no longer evil. The fact that he had saved their lives seemed to be ignored by Xander for some reason. He just concentrated on Angel's bad side.

So it's more complicated than "Xander resents Angel for dating Buffy". Besides, disliking Angel didn't mean that he wanted him dead. If he did, he would have cheered Kendra on when she suggested they kill Angel. Instead, he said, "Angel is our friend. Except I don't like him," showing that he's against killing Angel.

Right and you think he would have said 'You tried to kill Angel? Good on you, now please go and finish him off' in front of Buffy?

- Taking Spike back in Him, regardless of his feelings for him.

- Working together with Spike in Him.

- When Anya asked Xander to back her up in her 'we must kill Spike' argument, Xander chose to ignore her in Never Leave Me.

- Instead of blaming Spike, like Willow did, Xander suggested that it wasn't Spike's fault that he's killing, it was probably because The First had triggered him.

- Casting Buffy a supportive smile when she expressed her need to rescue Spike from the First.

- In Get It Done, Xander was the only one who considered that Spike can bring the demon, when everybody even Buffy had underestimated Spike.

- In Lies My Parents Told Me, Xander gave Spike a pat on the shoulder for support.

In S7 a big bad was coming. Bigger than any other. Like Buffy said, she didn't have time for vendetta's. Xander knew this. Why else would he have been nice to Spike after he tried to rape Buffy?

Because he had never been there. Granted, he was being an ass and a bad friend, but he didn't understand why Buffy felt this much love for someone who wasn't a human. He'll figure it out when he dates Anya, because even when she became a vengeance demon, he still loved her.

Like I said, too little too late.

Buffy was a 17 year old girl who had just killed the love of her life and got crap from her friends for needing to get away from it all.

Xander all of a sudden understanding years later was pointless.

 

[Relic]

I don't agree with the view of Xander hating Angel. To me it is better said and backed up as Xander hating the danger Angelus represents. He shows little to no problem with Buffy's other romantic pursuits in high school and college. He lets her decide

I think Angel wiggs out Xander,though. Remember when Spike first comes to town and Angel uses Xander as a prop offering to share a drink with Spike off of him? Before that, Xander was gaurded concerning Angel; the guy is agood vampire who ever heard of such a thing? I think he would have come to trust Angel if given more time for that trait to be earned...about the time it might have started to happen along came Angelus.

Xander shows little issue with Angel untill when?
Is it when Angelus shows up, maybe? Or when he starts getting a funny vibe off of the 'reformed' vampire when Angel uses him as bait without an exit strategy?

Vampires turned Xanders best male friend, killed one of his best female friends (that he happened to save) Put another one in a comma, killed one of his mentors and tortured another. You think he might just be alittle freaked out by them? Maybe depth of abject jealosy doesn't play as big a part as actual life changing historic events in his past like those?

"Yeah, Angel safe as long as he's not Angelus"
Sheesh.
I can see his concern as wanting to be a good friend, and I still think its that and not jealosy thats really driving him.

This Xander and his hating over jealosy I just don't get. I don't think I ever will.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

I don't agree with the view of Xander hating Angel. To me it is better said and backed up as Xander hating the danger Angelus represents. He shows little to no problem with Buffy's other romantic pursuits in high school and college. He lets her decide

I think Angel wiggs out Xander,though. Remember when Spike first comes to town and Angel uses Xander as a prop offering to share a drink with Spike off of him? Before that, Xander was gaurded concerning Angel; the guy is agood vampire who ever heard of such a thing? I think he would have come to trust Angel if given more time for that trait to be earned...about the time it might have started to happen along came Angelus.

Xander shows little issue with Angel untill when?
Is it when Angelus shows up, maybe? Or when he starts getting a funny vibe off of the 'reformed' vampire when Angel uses him as bait without an exit strategy?

Vampires turned Xanders best male friend, killed one of his best female friends (that he happened to save) Put another one in a comma, killed one of his mentors and tortured another. You think he might just be alittle freaked out by them? Maybe depth of abject jealosy doesn't play as big a part as actual life changing historic events in his past like those?

"Yeah, Angel safe as long as he's not Angelus"
Sheesh.
I can see his concern as wanting to be a good friend, and I still think its that and not jealosy thats really driving him.

This Xander and his hating over jealosy I just don't get. I don't think I ever will.

When Angel first shows up Xander is jealous and insults him.

 

[fly on the wall]

Remember when Spike first comes to town and Angel uses Xander as a prop offering to share a drink with Spike off of him? Before that, Xander was gaurded concerning Angel; the guy is agood vampire who ever heard of such a thing? I think he would have come to trust Angel if given more time for that trait to be earned...about the time it might have started to happen along came Angelus.

Xander shows little issue with Angel untill when?
Is it when Angelus shows up, maybe? Or when he starts getting a funny vibe off of the 'reformed' vampire when Angel uses him as bait without an exit strategy?

Except that when Angel does this, Xander exclaims, "I knew it!!!" Which just shows he already didn't like Angel. And why? Because Buffy did. He disliked Angel before he knew he was a vampire, before any of it. He disliked Angel for a petty, selfish, immature reason.

 

[sosa lola]

I agree with you purplepoof, but we should all know by now that Xander can do no wrong because it's all these mistakes that we should like!

We never said that Xander can do no wrong. Heck, Xander does lots of wrong. Some fans like that because they think characters like Tara, for example, are boring and unreal because they're always sweet and nice. Characters like Xander are more real because they have flaws. That doesn't mean that I support Xander's flaws. I relate to some of them, but don't support them.

I guess you like Buffy, right? Is she by any chance perfect? No. She makes a lot of mistakes, and she can be selfish and immature. That doesn't make her a bad person, it only makes her real.

He acted like he cared. Do you think he would have gave a crap if Angel had died?

I don't think he cared about Angel. I just think he cared a lot about Buffy to push away his dislike of Angel and be supportive and as I've showed you, he did a nice job being supportive after Revelations.

Xander hated Angel. He didn't just 'dislike' him. He didn't give a crap that Angel was no longer evil. The fact that he had saved their lives seemed to be ignored by Xander for some reason. He just concentrated on Angel's bad side.

That doesn't mean he wanted him dead. If he did, he would have cheered Kendra on when she suggested they kill Angel. He didn't. Actually, he kind of defended Angel by saying that he's their friend. Xander only wanted Angel dead when Angel turned evil, before that, he never did.

In S7 a big bad was coming. Bigger than any other. Like Buffy said, she didn't have time for vendetta's. Xander knew this. Why else would he have been nice to Spike after he tried to rape Buffy?

I don't know, why would Buffy be nice to Spike after he tried to rape her? There's something called forgiveness and acceptance. After Him, Xander didn't badmouth Spike once. In fact, the examples I posted show that he was okay with him around.

He disliked Angel before he knew he was a vampire, before any of it. He disliked Angel for a petty, selfish, immature reason.

But he only hated him after he turned evil. Disliking Angel didn't mean that Xander wanted him dead. He wanted Angel dead in Becoming more because Angel was dangerous and less because he was jealous. I don't even think jealousy had anything to do with his lie.

 

[BuffyElevated]

We never said that Xander can do no wrong. Heck, Xander does lots of wrong. Some fans like that because they think characters like Tara, for example, are boring and unreal because they're always sweet and nice. Characters like Xander are more real because they have flaws. That doesn't mean that I support Xander's flaws. I relate to some of them, but don't support them.

I guess you like Buffy, right? Is she by any chance perfect? No. She makes a lot of mistakes, and she can be selfish and immature. That doesn't make her a bad person, it only makes her real.



I don't think he cared about Angel. I just think he cared a lot about Buffy to push away his dislike of Angel and be supportive and as I've showed you, he did a nice job being supportive after Revelations.



That doesn't mean he wanted him dead. If he did, he would have cheered Kendra on when she suggested they kill Angel. He didn't. Actually, he kind of defended Angel by saying that he's their friend. Xander only wanted Angel dead when Angel turned evil, before that, he never did.



I don't know, why would Buffy be nice to Spike after he tried to rape her? There's something called forgiveness and acceptance. After Him, Xander didn't badmouth Spike once. In fact, the examples I posted show that he was okay with him around.



But he only hated him after he turned evil. Disliking Angel didn't mean that Xander wanted him dead. He wanted Angel dead in Becoming more because Angel was dangerous and less because he was jealous. I don't even think jealousy had anything to do with his lie.

It's like we have the same mind sometimes.... You stole my arguments. You ROCK!

 

[DoctorWhovian]

That doesn't mean he wanted him dead. If he did, he would have cheered Kendra on when she suggested they kill Angel. He didn't. Actually, he kind of defended Angel by saying that he's their friend. Xander only wanted Angel dead when Angel turned evil, before that, he never did.

Like I said, why would Xander say that in front of Buffy?

I don't know, why would Buffy be nice to Spike after he tried to rape her? There's something called forgiveness and acceptance. After Him, Xander didn't badmouth Spike once. In fact, the examples I posted show that he was okay with him around.

There was a war coming. The biggest they had faced. Buffy needed Spike on side.

But he only hated him after he turned evil. Disliking Angel didn't mean that Xander wanted him dead. He wanted Angel dead in Becoming more because Angel was dangerous and less because he was jealous. I don't even think jealousy had anything to do with his lie.

He pretty much hated him from the start. Didn't he even say he hated him?

He could have told Buffy that Willow was working on a spell. Maybe then she would have saved him.

 

[sosa lola]

Like I said, why would Xander say that in front of Buffy?

Like Xander cares if Buffy was in front of him or not. If he thinks Angel should be killed, he'll say it. He did exactly that in Passion, Becoming 1 and Revelation. Didn't care that Buffy was in the room. He even said it in Angel when they just discovered that Angel was a vampire.

There was a war coming. The biggest they had faced. Buffy needed Spike on side.

Doesn't mean that Xander can't badmouth Spike if he wanted. How many wars had they been in already? Xander and Spike always found the time to insult each other during a crisis, but by S7, both of them had matured and they didn't resent each other much, especially Xander when it came to Spike. He could have backed Anya up when she said addressed him as someone who always jumped into the "We must kill Spike" card, but he ignored her. Willow had accused Spike of returning back to his evil ways, which had always been a Xander thing to do, yet Xander wisely saw the situation with a sympathetic eye to Buffy, and figured out that Spike must be triggered.

He pretty much hated him from the start. Didn't he even say he hated him?

He said he disliked him. He never hated him until he became evil.

He could have told Buffy that Willow was working on a spell. Maybe then she would have saved him.

He was going to tell Buffy that Willow was going to do the spell, he was interrupted with Buffy's hopeful "What?" then he changed his mind. As Joss had explained, seeing the fire in Buffy's eyes disappearing made him hesitate. I think he lied for different reasons: fear + wanting Buffy not to stall and get killed + dislike of Angel + thinking that maybe Willow won't pull it off, it's her first spell after all.

 

[PurplePoof]

He said he disliked him. He never hated him until he became evil.

I think that's giving Xander a littttle too much credit, if you ask me...

 

[DoctorWhovian]

Like Xander cares if Buffy was in front of him or not. If he thinks Angel should be killed, he'll say it. He did exactly that in Passion, Becoming 1 and Revelation. Didn't care that Buffy was in the room. He even said it in Angel when they just discovered that Angel was a vampire.

Yes after he had an actual reason. He was hardly going to say he wanted him dead in front of Buffy with no reason.

Doesn't mean that Xander can't badmouth Spike if he wanted. How many wars had they been in already? Xander and Spike always found the time to insult each other during a crisis, but by S7, both of them had matured and they didn't resent each other much, especially Xander when it came to Spike. He could have backed Anya up when she said addressed him as someone who always jumped into the "We must kill Spike" card, but he ignored her. Willow had accused Spike of returning back to his evil ways, which had always been a Xander thing to do, yet Xander wisely saw the situation with a sympathetic eye to Buffy, and figured out that Spike must be triggered.



He said he disliked him. He never hated him until he became evil.

How many end of the world situations has he been in with Spike?

Let's see:

S2 - Hardly knew him. Did they even speak?

S5 - They still hardly knew each other and couldn't stand being around each other.

S7 - Were nicer to each other, but then again there were bigger things going on.

Just check out Innocence before Angelus shows up. When Willow says something like 'Angel is not dead' he immediately said 'Say hi for me'. As soon as he heard Angel and dead in the same sentence he talked.

He was going to tell Buffy that Willow was going to do the spell, he was interrupted with Buffy's hopeful "What?" then he changed his mind. As Joss had explained, seeing the fire in Buffy's eyes disappearing made him hesitate. I think he lied for different reasons: fear + wanting Buffy not to stall and get killed + dislike of Angel + thinking that maybe Willow won't pull it off, it's her first spell after all.

He still should have told her. Buffy had every chance of getting killed whether she stalled or not. It was NOT his place to lie.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

I just want to add:

Xander: I'm sorry, but let's not forget that I hated Angel long before you guys jumped on the bandwagon.

 

[Relic]

Did Xander take a rotation caring for Angel when Faith posioned him?

Was that before or after Angel punched him in the nose and said "that guy always bothered me." or something like that...

season 3 stuff, I am not sure on the details..

Dislike and hate are two different deals...I still don't think Xander hates Angel so much as the danger he represetns as a vampire with an identity crisis.

hen he said "I knew it" in season two over the Angel fake out, he's still just being a protective friend validating his suspicion.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

Did Xander take a rotation caring for Angel when Faith posioned him?

Was that before or after Angel punched him in the nose and said "that guy always bothered me." or something like that...

season 3 stuff, I am not sure on the details..

Dislike and hate are two different deals...I still don't think Xander hates Angel so much as the danger he represetns as a vampire with an identity crisis.

hen he said "I knew it" in season two over the Angel fake out, he's still just being a protective friend validating his suspicion.

The quote I posted where he said he hated him was from S2.

 

[PurplePoof]

To those who say Xander didn't "hate" Angel...do you think (even before Angel turned) Xander would've hesitated for a second to stake him if he'd had the means or opportunity? Seems pretty "hateful" to me. Xander never trusted Angel, and his dislike started before he even knew Angel was a vampire, because he was jealous.

 

[Relic]

I'm thinking that while Angel was poisoned by Faith...if Xander was wanting to kill him he would have had plenty of opportunity...if he was left alone with him.

He didn't though.

But to rewind farther back to season 2....

As far as other attempts at killing him go....he knows where Angel sleeps and can get access to a rocket launcher/ military grade explosives. A day time visit with some heavy ordinance and Angel is a memory.

Xander could never take him in a strait up fight, but to say he never had an opportunity to end him (not stake him) is a fallacy. Buffy need not even know..... :devil:

But Xander didn't because thats not his drive or desire. He hates 'Angelus' like a guy hates a friends abusive husband. Pre-Angelus he 'hates' (if you can even call it that) Angel like a kid who grew up in a drunken, abusive home despises a friends binge drinking boyfriend. The abuse is not there, per say, but the possibility of it certainly is.

Thats being protecive of your friends, and if it is a character flaw it is a noble one.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

I'm thinking that while Angel was poisoned by Faith...if Xander was wanting to kill him he would have had plenty of opportunity...if he was left alone with him.

He didn't though.

But to rewind farther back to season 2....

As far as other attempts at killing him go....he knows where Angel sleeps and can get access to a rocket launcher/ military grade explosives. A day time visit with some heavy ordinance and Angel is a memory.

Xander could never take him in a strait up fight, but to say he never had an opportunity to end him (not stake him) is a fallacy. Buffy need not even know..... :devil:

But Xander didn't because thats not his drive or desire. He hates 'Angelus' like a guy hates a friends abusive husband. Pre-Angelus he 'hates' (if you can even call it that) Angel like a kid who grew up in a drunken, abusive home despises a friends binge drinking boyfriend. The abuse is not there, per say, but the possibility of it certainly is.

Thats being protecive of your friends, and if it is a character flaw it is a noble one.

Xander is not stupid enough to just kill Angel. Whether Buffy knew he had done it or not, she would be devastated. That would not only hurt the person he loved, but it would put her at risk, since she would hardly be in the mood for slaying.

Xander has said he hated Angel, I posted the quote, but he's not a murderer.

 

[sosa lola]

Yes after he had an actual reason. He was hardly going to say he wanted him dead in front of Buffy with no reason.

So, you think he wanted him dead without a reason? Nothing supports that Xander wanted Angel dead, except when he became Angelus and Revelations. There was no other event where he wanted him dead. Disliking a guy doesn't mean wanting him dead.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the Spike bit, I see it as Xander finally growing past his vampire hate and understanding what it's like to fall in love with an ex-murderer. Hence his understanding attitude toward Buffy and Spike in S7.

I have to point out that while they were nice to each other in S5, they still fought and insulted each other. None of that happened in S7 post-Him.

 

[Relic]

People seem to be getting pretty hung up on a hate quote. Teens say they hate things all the time...other friends, boy friends/girl friends, actresses actors/ shows/ books...

Xander is not exactly Mr. Vocabulary. When he says he hates Angel and others are late jumping on the band wagon, I think he's more validating his suspicion of the guy rather than "hating him from the onset because he took away my Buffy"

Sure he does not like Angel from the get go and is suspicious of him. The guy is out of High School and pursuing a sophomore, he seems to hang around trouble and have knowledge of bad stuff before it happens. He lurks and does kinda give off that stalker vibe...

Granted, I was in that age gap myself once as a college freshman dating a high school sophomore, and Xander doesn't have room to judge after chasing after an older women...his bug lady teacher...but Xander knows his life is a train wreck, he's a little pessimistic and protective of his friends. I'm not saying I agree with his suspicion and dislike of Angel but I think I understand where it comes from and I don't fault him for it.

Evidently, neither did his friends, as they remain with him.