Letting Spike Live in Season 4, (a theory involving Angel)

[Gum Gnome33]

We've talked a lot about whether we feel Buffy was justified for not staking Spike in season 4 regardless of his status as newly harmless.

I've seen some members suggest that she was perhaps already harboring latent romantic feelings for him, (I'm a Spuffy but I don't subscribe to that one!), and there are those who follow the logic that since she is consistent with her criteria for killing--harmless=safe--her reasoning is sound. Some members believe of course that Buffy's choice not to kill Spike, chip or no chip, is unwarranted and dangerous--primarily because we know nothing about it, how long it lasts, whether he can get it removed, etc. (Btw, I'm referring to season 4 only--not staking Spike in later seasons is obviously more of a complicated discussion and not what I'm getting at, here).

So, 2 out of 3 of the above theories make a lot of sense to me, and I can easily wrap my head around both of them. Problem is, they're polar opposite perspectives. I have an alternate theory, and it happens to involve Angel.

I was re-watching the season the other day and it suddenly occurred to me that perhaps Buffy keeps Spike around because she misses Angel. She, irrationally and unconsciously, feels more connected to the vamp after which she still pines-- when she is around his former friend and partner in crime.

Too bizarre? Maybe. But I think there's something to this idea. When we love someone completely, we embrace every aspect of them and while this is obviously an extreme example, I think it's plausible. Buffy's romances are, after all, heightened and extreme analogies to our more down-to-Earth and real life experiences. And people can be conditioned to embrace and accept the unfavorable, whether because of love or other another psychological/biological/chemical phenomenon. Though on a surface level Spike serves to represent Angelus the evil vampire, perhaps to Buffy he quite simply reminds her of the person she loves and that is enough. Buffy would never admit this to anyone--probably not even to herself--but she would indeed risk the safety of her friends and of innocent civilians to preserve this connection to him, however twisted or far-fetched a tie it may be.

I think at this point in the story, Buffy is content to surround herself with any semblance of Angel--any memory, any aspect of his character--though she wouldn't admit it. The water is brown and rusty but she'll drink it because she can't remember what it's like to no longer be thirsty.

So...thoughts? Is this a plausible theory? Am I just too wrapped up in the spirit of Valentine's Day that I'll turn any situation into a quasi romantic one? 😛

 

[Kean]

As someone with B/A tattooed on her heart, I don't see it. Doesn't mean it isn't there but I don't feel that from Buffy in this particular situation.

I can understand her linking Spike to Angel in terms of the familial connections. He is the only other person around her who knew a version of Angel's life that could feel close to how well she knew him-... and even as I type this I am shaking my head in disbelief.

I think Buffy missed Angel terribly and I think she did search for pieces of him, pieces of them, during S4. But I don't think Spike was every the place she sought him out. If anything, Spike was everything Angel, in terms of personality, wasn't. And when it comes down to it, I think she missed who Angel was to her, not what he was.

 

[white avenger]

Wasn't Giles the one who originally wanted to keep Spike safe in exchange for the information that he supposedly had about the Initiative? It's been awhile since I've watched Season 4, so maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that first, Buffy didn't trust him at all. Even when it was pretty obvious that he actually was harmless, she kept teasing him O"Oh, look at my poor neck, just pulsing with hot, sweet, blood," or something like that) Buffy kept trying to test his story about the chip.

I think that it was more a question of deciding that the information that Spike had about the mysterious military guys who had been discovered lurking all around Sunnydale was valuable enough to take a risk with Spike. Then, later, it was probably a case of honoring the promise not to harm Spike s long as he pretty well stayed out of trouble and acted as a surce of demon goings on around the hellmouth.

Why no one suggested dusting him after his alliance with Adam, however, is beyond even me, extreme Spuffy shipper that I am. That was definitely breaking his word not to cause trouble, and he was, at least indirectly, responsible for humans being killed, and should have nullified any bargain between them. Spike should have been dust in the wind as soon as the final battle was over.

Maybe some benevolent Power, knowing the role that Spike would play in what was to come, just how important his role would be and how vital he would be to Buffy's future, somehow manipulated everyone involved to the point that, no matter how much he fouled up, neither Spuffy nor any of the Spuffies could bring themselves to actually do what should have been done. (Now, that's gonna bring a hoard of eye rolling Board members crashing down on me!)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

While I wish this were true (it would be a great argument to use against a spuffy in a debate for nullifying spuffy) I dont think it's true.

I think Buffy not killing him between finding out he's chipped and about Adam is completely understandable, he's harmless and showed up pathetic and begging for help to just stake him would have been harsh on Buffys side. How he wasn't killed after season 4 is completely crazy though.

Maybe some benevolent Power, knowing the role that Spike would play in what was to come, just how important his role would be and how vital he would be to Buffy's future, somehow manipulated everyone involved to the point that, no matter how much he fouled up, neither Spuffy nor any of the Spuffies could bring themselves to actually do what should have been done. (Now, that's gonna bring a hoard of eye rolling Board members crashing down on me!)

:rolleyes1

Very doubtable, no higher power seems interested in Spike that we've seen. Spike the person hasn't had any destined roll to play passed glorified necklace manikin, which didn't have to be Spike.

 

[thetopher]

I actually think Spike helping Buffy at the end of Season 2 plays a role in the decision here, in the back of her mind Buffy knows that Spike can, sometimes, be useful, an ally- he's different to other vamps.
Buffy's fairly honourable in dealing with her opponents, she does have a code. If Spike is useful/harmless, even if he irritates her greatly, she's not going to just kill him.

I don't think there's any romantic component to their relationship in S4 (except when Faith is in his body...ho boy, but Faith can talk dirty. 😀)

However, after Adam, I can't think of a single reason they didn't dust him right there, or at the very least tell him he's no longer wanted in Sunnydale (and back that threat up with physical violence!). He wasn't even useful to any of them until half-way through S5.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I can understand her linking Spike to Angel in terms of the familial connections. He is the only other person around her who knew a version of Angel's life that could feel close to how well she knew him-... and even as I type this I am shaking my head in disbelief.

Yeah, this is sort of how I see it... and I do understand the disbelief!

But I don't think Spike was every the place she sought him out. If anything, Spike was everything Angel, in terms of personality, wasn't. And when it comes down to it, I think she missed who Angel was to her, not what he was.

Good points.

I guess I'm sort of envisioning a story line (perhaps not a real-life scenario though it could make sense-- but a fictional notion in which everything is heightened) in which a woman, for example, while missing her husband who is away fighting in a war goes to great lengths to defend his brother who has just killed someone. She hides him from the police, tells herself he's harmless and can't stop seeing her husband when she looks at him. Maybe she even believes that her husband would want her to protect him, (though if he knew he'd swear that she shouldn't--that she'd be in danger if she did). Sure the analogy's a bit fuzzy but that's along the lines of where I'm going with my theory.

While I wish this were true (it would be a great argument to use against a spuffy in a debate for nullifying spuffy) I dont think it's true.

Hehe I knew this was coming! I mean I do have to admit that if my theory were true, it could be argued that a lot of Buffy's attraction to Spike pulled from her love for Angel and her desire to be closer to him. And really, I think I'd be ok with that. For me it wouldn't nullify Spuffy, especially because by season 7 I think it's a whole other being. But if we were to say that she slept with Spike in season 6 largely to feel connected to Angel, justifying it with the fact that he was helping and she didn't believe he'd hurt her--that'd work for me. Again, my Spuffy is more about the post-soul with tidbits of what they were in the beginning of season 6. Annnnnyway...

I actually think Spike helping Buffy at the end of Season 2 plays a role in the decision here, in the back of her mind Buffy knows that Spike can, sometimes, be useful, an ally- he's different to other vamps.
Buffy's fairly honourable in dealing with her opponents, she does have a code. If Spike is useful/harmless, even if he irritates her greatly, she's not going to just kill him.

Yeah, this was always my theory, too--I've definitely used it in arguments before!

 

[white avenger]

Spike the person hasn't had any destined roll to play passed glorified necklace manikin, which didn't have to be Spike.

There wasn't an abundance of people "with souls, but stronger than human" around Sunnydale at that particular moment, since Angel was being sent back to Los Angeles. There was Buffy herself, but she, on Angel's advice apparently, wasn't going to wear the Amulet. Then there was Faith, who, let's face it, wasn't exactly Number 1 on Buffy's Trustworthy and Dependable list,

That left one, and only one, possible candidate to play "glorified necklace manikin." Spike. And before you say that Willow could have done it, no, the term was STRONGER, not more powerful. Besides which, Willow would be far more effective in her role as spell casting witch than hand to hand warrior. Unlike Gandalf the Gray, Willow doesn't seem to be able to fight and cast complicated spells at the same time, and even without being tied up with the Empowerment, which Buffy hadn't thought of at the time that she named Spike as her Champion, she surely would have planned on Willow adding some kind of magic to the fight. Buffy aptly called Willow her "Big Gun," and artillery support comes from behind the front lines, not toe to toe with the enemy.

So, basically, yes, it DID have to be Spike.

And as for Spike being somehow protected by some higher being, how is that any more doubtful than that Cordy would cause a dragon to incinerate all of Angel's enemies, Buffy being brought back to life, not once, but twice, a vampire being burned to ashes in a cavern under the hellmouth, then coming back as a ghost 19 days later, then becoming fully corporeal just a few weeks after that, then, months after that, becoming the captain of a starship manned by giant termites, Giles being resurrected, or Gunn being a vampire, then becoming human once more? In the Whedonverse, the doubtful can happen immediately, the impossible takes a little while longer.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

There wasn't an abundance of people "with souls, but stronger than human" around Sunnydale at that particular moment, since Angel was being sent back to Los Angeles. There was Buffy herself, but she, on Angel's advice apparently, wasn't going to wear the Amulet. Then there was Faith, who, let's face it, wasn't exactly Number 1 on Buffy's Trustworthy and Dependable list,

It doesn't matter that Angel is sent back or Faith isn't number 1, if Spike wasn't there, Angel could have stayed, Faith could have worn it or even Buffy could have worn it.

It had to be someone stronger then a human, that is any number of people, it didn't have to be Spike.

That left one, and only one, possible candidate to play "glorified necklace manikin." Spike. And before you say that Willow could have done it, no, the term was STRONGER, not more powerful. Besides which, Willow would be far more effective in her role as spell casting witch than hand to hand warrior. Unlike Gandalf the Gray, Willow doesn't seem to be able to fight and cast complicated spells at the same time, and even without being tied up with the Empowerment, which Buffy hadn't thought of at the time that she named Spike as her Champion, she surely would have planned on Willow adding some kind of magic to the fight. Buffy aptly called Willow her "Big Gun," and artillery support comes from behind the front lines, not toe to toe with the enemy.

I always forget that line were Buffy says "Spike you are my champion" - she didn't name him her champion.

And as for Spike being somehow protected by some higher being

Buffy being brought back to life, not once, but twice,

First time Xander
Second time Willow

a vampire being burned to ashes in a cavern under the hellmouth, then coming back as a ghost 19 days later, then becoming fully corporeal just a few weeks after that,

Lindsey

then, months after that, becoming the captain of a starship manned by giant termites,

This is of little importance compared to the other events you described, being captain of a bug ship isn't a great act of heroism.

Giles being resurrected,

Angel

or Gunn being a vampire, then becoming human once more?

Senior Partners

In the Whedonverse, the doubtful can happen immediately, the impossible takes a little while longer.

The doubtful can happen, it is also explained.

Nothing the show indicates a higher power is intervening in their day to day lives, there are very few events that some kind of higher power gets credit for and is used as protecting a character, The theory the PTB made it snow in sunnydale protecting Angel is credible given that the writers knew Angel was getting a spin off at that time, we know the PTBs actually had plans for him and there's the prophecy about him playing a part in the apocalypse.

The absence of evidence is not evidence.

 

[white avenger]

It doesn't matter that Angel is sent back or Faith isn't number 1, if Spike wasn't there, Angel could have stayed, Faith could have worn it or even Buffy could have worn it.

It had to be someone stronger then a human, that is any number of people, it didn't have to be Spike.


I always forget that line were Buffy says "Spike you are my champion" - she didn't name him her champion.





First time Xander
Second time Willow


Lindsey


This is of little importance compared to the other events you described, being captain of a bug ship isn't a great act of heroism.

Angel

Senior Partners


The doubtful can happen, it is also explained.

Nothing the show indicates a higher power is intervening in their day to day lives, there are very few events that some kind of higher power gets credit for and is used as protecting a character, The theory the PTB made it snow in sunnydale protecting Angel is credible given that the writers knew Angel was getting a spin off at that time, we know the PTBs actually had plans for him and there's the prophecy about him playing a part in the apocalypse.

The absence of evidence is not evidence.

1) Angel DIDN'T stay. For some reason, Buffy decided that he was more valuable elsewhere.

2) Eliminate Buffy herself, eliminate Angel, and eliminate Faith, what other "any number of people were there in Sunnydale for Buffy to chose to wear the amulet?

3) Buffy says about the amulet, "It was meant to be worn by a Champion," then hands it tp Spike, who says, "Been called a loy o' things before..." That pretty much decides the issue. Buffy chose Spike to be her champion.

4) Yes, it was Xander who resuscitated Buffy the first time, but how many people on either show are killed by vampires, then brought back to life?

And yes, Willow brought Buffy back from the dead after several months, and, same question, how many people have been brought back from the dead after that long?

The method or person performing the act doesn't diminish from the act itself. Buffy was dead, then she was brought back.

5) Same as above with Lindsey.

6) Spike's bug ship and his command thereof is exactly like the other things that I described, in the fact that it should be something that is totally outside the realm of possibilities ss for a vampire in the Whedonverse to do.

7) There is no evidence AS YET that some higher power intervened in Spike's existence, except that the First Evil most likely got him back to Sunnydale after his breakdown from having his soul restored. Or do you think that Spike managed that himself when he was two steps removed from a walking vegetable?

8) The absence of concrete evidence in no way indicates that what I suggested is impossible, only that it is a plot device that Joss hasn't used as yet. I said "MAYBE" as in proposing a theory, then defended your argument that it was "highly doubtful." Many highly doubtful theories have been proven true in the past, both in fiction and in real life. Doubtful and impossible are two different things.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

1) Angel DIDN'T stay. For some reason, Buffy decided that he was more valuable elsewhere.

2) Eliminate Buffy herself, eliminate Angel, and eliminate Faith, what other "any number of people were there in Sunnydale for Buffy to chose to wear the amulet?

Why do I have to eliminate Angel, Faith and Buffy? The point is if spike was killed in the last minuet, Buffy could have called Angel back, or either her or Faith could have worn it.

Saying ignore Angel, Buffy and Faith from the example and look Spike is the only person who can do it is true, but only cuz you make it true.

I also think Willow could have worn it, yes Angel says the person has to be strong, but he also says it bestows strength on the wear, which is didn't, it was a glorified sun torch. Angel didn't know enough about it.

3) Buffy says about the amulet, "It was meant to be worn by a Champion," then hands it tp Spike, who says, "Been called a loy o' things before..." That pretty much decides the issue. Buffy chose Spike to be her champion.

LMFAO, no it doesn't. Your wording is ridiculous, she didn't name Spike her champion, she called him a champion.
This is a hearing hoof beats and saying it's zebras scenario. She called him a champion, that is not the same as saying "you are my champion" as you like to take it.
The exact same bias could lead me to say that since Angel says the amulet is to dangerous to wear Buffy decides not to risk her or Angel and gives it to Faith - perfectly valid based on what happened on the show, but clearly comes from a deep rooted bias. Saying Buffy choose Spike as HER champion is that exact bias, that is not what happened.

4) Yes, it was Xander who resuscitated Buffy the first time, but how many people on either show are killed by vampires, then brought back to life?

And yes, Willow brought Buffy back from the dead after several months, and, same question, how many people have been brought back from the dead after that long?

The method or person performing the act doesn't diminish from the act itself. Buffy was dead, then she was brought back.

But a higher power didn't orchestrate either of those events

5) Same as above with Lindsey.

But a higher power didn't orchestrate this either.
They chose to do those thing just like Spike did.

7) There is no evidence AS YET that some higher power intervened in Spike's existence, except that the First Evil most likely got him back to Sunnydale after his breakdown from having his soul restored. Or do you think that Spike managed that himself when he was two steps removed from a walking vegetable?

Oh I totally think he got there by himself, I dont think he had any problem getting home. I dont see any reason to think the First needed Spike in sunnydale, he found it convenient for him to be there when it was to distract Buffy, but since he didn't use Spike for anything big, I doubt he would have bothered to go through the trouble of getting him home.

8) The absence of concrete evidence in no way indicates that what I suggested is impossible, only that it is a plot device that Joss hasn't used as yet. I said "MAYBE" as in proposing a theory, then defended your argument that it was "highly doubtful." Many highly doubtful theories have been proven true in the past, both in fiction and in real life. Doubtful and impossible are two different things.

You did say maybe, but your explanation behind the theory isn't concrete. If the amulet had to be worn by an English vampire that dies his hair, he could totally be considered vital, but that isn't the case. What spike did was vital, but spike could have been interchanged with Angel/Faith/Buffy and seemingly still had the same outcome.

 

[thetopher]

Why does it even matter if Spike's got a destiny? If that was the case that would just make him a knock off of Angel. In As5 he was manipulated by Lindsey into thinking he had a destiny, with the whole Shanshu prophecy.

The thing about Spike is that he's his own man, he chose to go and get a soul. He chooses what he does with it. All of S5 of Angel was Spike becoming his own hero, not 'the guy with the destiny' not 'the other vampire with a soul', he was Spike. In the end he faught not for Buffy, not for his redemption (that was season 7 of BtVS) he fought because it was the right thing to do. Because he was needed.

I don't get this whole 'Spike has to be just as important destiny-wise as Angel', I don't think less of Faith because she hasn't saved the world as many times as Buffy. (actually I think more of her for falling and then picking herself up without any real help)

Spike needs to be more distinguishable from Angel, not less. He needs to be his own vampire, have his own journey, (man, that sounded cheesy....🙄).

Oh, and the whole 'champion' thing can be simply turned around. If the amulet was so dangerous/volitile maybe Buffy thought Spike was more expendable that either Faith or Willow, and that's why she gave him it to wear? 😛

 

[The1heart2]

Oh, and the whole 'champion' thing can be simply turned around. If the amulet was so dangerous/volitile maybe Buffy thought Spike was more expendable that either Faith or Willow, and that's why she gave him it to wear? 😛

I thought the amulet was for a nonliving person with a soul? Only a vampire could do it.


Also, if Spike was expendable to Buffy then why did she beg for him to take the amulet off when the battle was almost over? She didn't want him to die Spike CHOSE to stay.

 

[Lyri]

I thought the amulet was for a nonliving person with a soul? Only a vampire could do it.

The only stipulation for the wearing of the amulet was that they had to have a soul, but be more than human. That boils down to Spike, Angel, ANY Slayer - including the hundreds created by Willow's spell - and, at a push, Dawn and maybe Willow herself.

Also, this thread has gone WAY off topic, just saying.

 

[white avenger]

You did say maybe, but your explanation behind the theory isn't concrete. If the amulet had to be worn by an English vampire that dies his hair, he could totally be considered vital, but that isn't the case. What spike did was vital, but spike could have been interchanged with Angel/Faith/Buffy and seemingly still had the same outcome.

It occurs to me that I could have said back at the end of Season 2, "We haven't seen the last of Angel yet," or in Season 3, "You know, maybe that First Evil character is gonna come back one of these days and give Buffy a real hard time," or in Season 4, "You know, Buffy and the Scoobies need a younger member of the gang so that the show will appeal to younger viewers," or "Joyce doesn't do much in the show, really. I bet they write her out somehow," or maybe, "Buffy needs a new boyfriend, now that Angel's gone, maybe a human demon hunter" we would have been having this same conversation. Or maybe I could have said, "If Angel keeps messing around with Wolfram & Hart, he's gonna wind up in hell, and take a lot of good folks with him," or even, "Angel's 'For the greater good' excuse is gonna cause Buffy a lot of trouble one of these days," and you would have gotten a migraine from rolling your eyes so far back into your head.

We've seen the highly doubtful happen before, not just once, but several times. And theories are exactly that, theories, until and if evidence is found to support them, at which time they become corollaries. Theories are conjectures, things that one or more people happen to imagine could be possible. This is my theory. You have the right to believe it or not, and obviously you do not. But that in no way prevents it from being a viable theory.

The beauty of a theory is that it could prove to be fact, at some point in the future, give me the chance of one day saying, "I told you so," whereas all that you can ever truthfully say is, "It ain't happened yet."

I can wait.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

It occurs to me that I could have said back at the end of Season 2, "We haven't seen the last of Angel yet," or in Season 3, "You know, maybe that First Evil character is gonna come back one of these days and give Buffy a real hard time," or in Season 4, "You know, Buffy and the Scoobies need a younger member of the gang so that the show will appeal to younger viewers," or "Joyce doesn't do much in the show, really. I bet they write her out somehow," or maybe, "Buffy needs a new boyfriend, now that Angel's gone, maybe a human demon hunter" we would have been having this same conversation. Or maybe I could have said, "If Angel keeps messing around with Wolfram & Hart, he's gonna wind up in hell, and take a lot of good folks with him," or even, "Angel's 'For the greater good' excuse is gonna cause Buffy a lot of trouble one of these days," and you would have gotten a migraine from rolling your eyes so far back into your head.

We've seen the highly doubtful happen before, not just once, but several times. And theories are exactly that, theories, until and if evidence is found to support them, at which time they become corollaries. Theories are conjectures, things that one or more people happen to imagine could be possible. This is my theory. You have the right to believe it or not, and obviously you do not. But that in no way prevents it from being a viable theory.

The beauty of a theory is that it could prove to be fact, at some point in the future, give me the chance of one day saying, "I told you so," whereas all that you can ever truthfully say is, "It ain't happened yet."

I can wait.

that is completely different, if you had said back in season 3 that you thought the first was gonna come back thats one thing, you have to wait for that to happen. But your theory suggests Spike has a larger part and that each of these things that haven happened is something protecting him, well each of those things are the as if the first came back, each of those things should have something more to them.

Example: When we first meet the PTBs in Angel, we can look back and realise there is a president for that, as someone sent Whistler, someone made it snow, someone sent Doyle. Something external is affecting Angel, steering him.

It's not the same for Spike, your theory suggests some all powerful thing literately invaded Buffys brain and stopped her from killing Spike - if thats the case we're dealing with something more like Jasmine or Twilight.

But nothing stopped Buffy from killing Spike, nothing approached Spike and helped make his decision about getting a soul, something didn't come to him and say wear this amulet, your the worlds only hope. Cuz everything that happened to Spike was his choice or had an explanation, the difference is your not saying something could hapen later, your saying something is already happening now, but dont look for proof yet, it doeson't happen yet.

By that same logic, I'll wait for Spikes next rape attempt on Buffy to tell you "I told you she should have dusted him sooner".

If this is actually a theory you believe, I look forward to our next debate where you say that Spike choose his soul while Angel was cursed with his, and I can point out that he was probably forced to get a soul by the will of this unproven-future force.

 

[thetopher]

Isn't it just a tensy bit juvenile to say 'Spike could have a destiny, you don't know anything for sure. He could be way more important in the scheme of things because nothings been said differently.'

There are plenty of things that are possible that aren't contradicted on the show- it's much more likely that Conners got some supreme destiny (beyond Jasmine's lame plotting...) being the son of two vampires, which is now way rarer than 'vampire with a soul'.
I mean looking back, did Cordelia have a destiny as a higher power? Nothing points to it, she's just a popular cheerleading high school girl. But the choices she makes (and again some Jasmine plotting apparently...😡) means she becomes very important, a conduit to the powers that be.

 

[white avenger]

that is completely different, if you had said back in season 3 that you thought the first was gonna come back thats one thing, you have to wait for that to happen. But your theory suggests Spike has a larger part and that each of these things that haven happened is something protecting him, well each of those things are the as if the first came back, each of those things should have something more to them.


If this is actually a theory you believe, I look forward to our next debate where you say that Spike choose his soul while Angel was cursed with his, and I can point out that he was probably forced to get a soul by the will of this unproven-future force.

And my theory is exactly that. A suggestion, and nothing more. Suggestions and theories require neither evidence nor time limits. They only put forth the idea that such a thing could have happened, or, in this case, may in some future story, be used as an element in some episode or arc.

And Spike did choose his soul, while Angel was cursed with his. And maybe (there's that word again) some higher power influenced the events that led to both. Only Joss knows for sure, and he hasn't offered ant statement, pro or con, on the issue. Yet. But, like I said before, I can wait.

 

[Xin Rong]

And my theory is exactly that. A suggestion, and nothing more. Suggestions and theories require neither evidence nor time limits. They only put forth the idea that such a thing could have happened, or, in this case, may in some future story, be used as an element in some episode or arc.

And Spike did choose his soul, while Angel was cursed with his. And maybe (there's that word again) some higher power influenced the events that led to both. Only Joss knows for sure, and he hasn't offered ant statement, pro or con, on the issue. Yet. But, like I said before, I can wait.

Souled Spike did not choose his soul, soulless Spike did, and as we have seen with Angel, a souled vampire and a soulless vampire are different entities...

Spike with a soul deserves little credit for the actions of soulless Spike, both positive and negative, just as I think is the same with Angel/Angelus.

If you disagree, then would you say that Xander is guilty for his actions as a hyena person, because it seems that Joss introduced this idea in that episode to set the groundwork for Angel's soul/vampire revelation?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Souled Spike did not choose his soul, soulless Spike did, and as we have seen with Angel, a souled vampire and a soulless vampire are different entities...

Spike with a soul deserves little credit for the actions of soulless Spike, both positive and negative, just as I think is the same with Angel/Angelus.

If you disagree, then would you say that Xander is guilty for his actions as a hyena person, because it seems that Joss introduced this idea in that episode to set the groundwork for Angel's soul/vampire revelation?

Dont be silly, Spike should get full credit for going through all the trouble of getting that soul!
Just remember that when it comes to attempted rape, that Spike is gone and he shouldn't be held accountable for those actions!
And everyone was manipulated into not killing Spike by... well you'll see later. Until it comes to the decision to get the soul, then the thing you'll learn about later took a step back and was like "this is on you bro", it didn't have to manipulate him into doing that, it just worked out that way, which is handy becasue then then there only would have been (at minimum) 3 other options to wear the amulet! Can you imagine 3, it's on odd number, you know what else is an odd number 5 - as in the amount of letters in SPIKE and BUFFY, and what number is between 3 and 5, 4 - which just happen to be the number of letters in the word love.

There it is, definite proof Spike loves Buffy.
Can't believe you missed that when you watched the series, it's basic science.

🙂

 

[Xin Rong]

Dont be silly, Spike should get full credit for going through all the trouble of getting that soul!
Just remember that when it comes to attempted rape, that Spike is gone and he shouldn't be held accountable for those actions!
And everyone was manipulated into not killing Spike by... well you'll see later. Until it comes to the decision to get the soul, then the thing you'll learn about later took a step back and was like "this is on you bro", it didn't have to manipulate him into doing that, it just worked out that way, which is handy becasue then then there only would have been (at minimum) 3 other options to wear the amulet! Can you imagine 3, it's on odd number, you know what else is an odd number 5 - as in the amount of letters in SPIKE and BUFFY, and what number is between 3 and 5, 4 - which just happen to be the number of letters in the word love.

There it is, definite proof Spike loves Buffy.
Can't believe you missed that when you watched the series, it's basic science.

🙂

Based on the previous, not insane, posts of yours that I have seen over the years, I am going to make the conclusion that your being sarcastic, unless I have been watching Big Bang Theory too much and assimilated Sheldon's understanding, or lack there, of sarcasm 🙂