Liking a character vs Shipping?

[Black Eye Guy]

Why do you think there is such a connection between liking a character and automatically shipping?

For example, I really like Angel and really dislike Spike, and that kinda seems to automatically translate to Buffy/Angel and anti Spike/Buffy. I really dont like shipping, I hate the shipping names and rarely use them. I dont like Spike, so dont like him with Buffy and prefer Angel and buffy together over Buffy and Spike, but I really like Angel and Cordelia together.

Does shipping mean you can only like one paring of a character?

I also really dont like that you can't start an argument about a character without it turning into a shipping argument.

So I was wondering what others though, does disliking a character mean anti-shipping. And is shipping too interconnected to separate from a character argument?

 

[Kean]

In short, no.

Angel and Buffy are my favourite characters and I also ship them. As well as that I intensely dislike Spike and Spuffy. I don't see my stance on B/A being related to my stance on S/B. People probably don't believe me but I'm not bothered about that.

While I ship Bangel I have also enjoyed some of Buffy and Angel's other relationships. I love Riley Finn. Like, seriously love him. I enjoy what he Buffy had and I find the interaction (or lack thereof) in their relationship fascinating. For a minute I thought there was going to be something with Buffy and Wood, I was intrigued by that too. I like what Buffy had with Satsu and would gladly see them get together again. Similarly I liked Angel with Nina, his history with Darla was always fascinating, though I did find his relationship with Cordelia forced and bland.

I really don't have an issue with Buffy and Angel being with other people. It doesn't get in the way of my shipping. My dislike of Spike and Spuffy has everything to do with Spike, not Angel or my ship.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

In short, no.

Angel and Buffy are my favourite characters and I also ship them. As well as that I intensely dislike Spike and Spuffy. I don't see my stance on B/A being related to my stance on S/B. People probably don't believe me but I'm not bothered about that.

While I ship Bangel I have also enjoyed some of Buffy and Angel's other relationships. I love Riley Finn. Like, seriously love him. I enjoy what he Buffy had and I find the interaction (or lack thereof) in their relationship fascinating. For a minute I thought there was going to be something with Buffy and Wood, I was intrigued by that too. I like what Buffy had with Satsu and would gladly see them get together again. Similarly I liked Angel with Nina, his history with Darla was always fascinating, though I did find his relationship with Cordelia forced and bland.

I really don't have an issue with Buffy and Angel being with other people. It doesn't get in the way of my shipping. My dislike of Spike and Spuffy has everything to do with Spike, not Angel or my ship.

Yeah thats kinda how I can see it, I can see the characters ending up with someone else, I just can't see it being Spike/Buffy. So does that count as shipping, I wouldn't think so as it's not that im demanding Buffy/Angel it's that I see it as Spike/Buffy will never work.

And exactly the same as you I don't dislike Spike/Buffy because I like Buffy/Angel, it's cuz Spike is the pits!

 

[Amanda108]

Why do you think there is such a connection between liking a character and automatically shipping?

Interesting topic!

I believe when you like a character you are more likely to pay close attention to him or her, meaning you'll pick up on subtle interactions and reactions and chemistry. All of this ignites a spark in your mind that "Hey, this guy would be good with her" or whatever.

Also, if you like a character you may be inclined to want him or her to be happy, hence shipping with someone you feel is a good match.

Does shipping mean you can only like one paring of a character?

Do you mean that if I ship Spike and Buffy, for example, I can only like Spike with Buffy and vice versa? Forgive me if I've misunderstood. For some people it sure seems that way. I'm a multi-shipper. There's so much potential in all different pairings!

does disliking a character mean anti-shipping.

It does seem logical to conclude that if you dislike a particular character then you won't feel a positive emotional investment (aka shipping) in the relationships of said character. But I'm sure it doesn't work that way for everyone. On the flip side, you can anti-ship without disliking either character in the potential pairing.

And is shipping too interconnected to separate from a character argument?

Shipping, no. But the canon relationships of a character in the Buffyverse tend to become a large part of a character on his or her own. Our relationships help us develop, whether positively or negatively. Therefore relationships come into play in characterization talk and so shipping does tend to leak into a character argument, unfortunately. (Unfortunate because we all know what shipping arguments are like... 🙁)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Do you mean that if I ship Spike and Buffy, for example, I can only like Spike with Buffy and vice versa? Forgive me if I've misunderstood. For some people it sure seems that way. I'm a multi-shipper. There's so much potential in all different pairings!

Yeah thats what I meant. Like for example if someone made a Spike/Buffy thread and I commented saying I really dislike them, it's bound to get a "well your a bangel" response, but it isn't that I'm a bangel and want Buffy and Angel together, it's that I dont like Spike?

this argument seems to apply to a number of non-shipping areas also, I've seen some replies lately that are about characters but people will say, "this is gonna piss off the spuffys", it just kinda seems that liking a character is automatically associated with shipping.

 

[Kean]

Yeah thats kinda how I can see it, I can see the characters ending up with someone else, I just can't see it being Spike/Buffy. So does that count as shipping, I wouldn't think so as it's not that im demanding Buffy/Angel it's that I see it as Spike/Buffy will never work.

And exactly the same as you I don't dislike Spike/Buffy because I like Buffy/Angel, it's cuz Spike is the pits!

I'll go to my grave shipping B/A. No two ways about it. But I understand that it's likely I won't see them together they way I feel they should be. But that in no way lends me to believe that Buffy and Angel shouldn't find slices of love and happiness in the arms of others.

And LMFAO, he is the absolute pits! I don't like him and I don't believe in him. If his story wasn't so wrapped up in my favourite characters' lives I wouldn't cast a thought to him. But he is placed with my fandom interest so I'm forced to deal with this element of the story I have no interest or patience for. He's like the No Compare fella interrupting everything I like. LOL

 

[EVIL UU]

Oh, my favourite topic.

It's like, I detest Angel, but I can still enjoy Buffy's and Angel's relationship, even though I think it's incredibly creepy. Here's why. What I look for in a relationship is a story of the personal kind. I'm interested in how the relationship affects both of the lovers. How do they change and enrich each other? Do they try to build their own little world? Buffy's and Angel's relationship has all that and much more, for example, I love how full of humour this relationship is. This is why I also like Willow and Tara and Xander and Anya together. They change each other. They build their own little universes.

On the other hand, I despise Spike and Buffy because it's flat. It's a pointless, boring waste of time. Why do I even watch it, tell me a story, OK?

In a relationship, I'm more interested in what than who. I'm more interested in how will Buffy and her partner deal with that huge pile of garbage in her head than in who that lucky person will be. No real preferences here, as long as it's not a dead monstrosity I'm fine wit it, be it Xander or Willow or Faith or Satsu or Giles or whatever, even Angel if he's alive, I don't care, if there's a story about two people there, I'm ready to enjoy it.

 

[Robb Stark]

I don't think they're that interconnected. At the same time however, I think that everyone is naturally inclined to care more about the relationships involving the characters they like. Angel is my favorite character on either series and I love Buffy, so just naturally as a fan I wanted them together. That was only enhanced by my thinking that they're perfect for one another.

Willow and Tara may be the ultimate dream couple of a lot of fans, but I don't care much for either character, so their romance and relationship does nothing for me. Conversely, I loved Oz, and cared a lot about his relationship with Willow because of that.

I'm one of the few fans however, who really enjoys Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike. I think a big part of that is that those three are far and away my favorite characters on the show, and are all on my all time fictional character list as well. I think Angel and Buffy fit together the best, through experiences in my own life I identify with it the most and I find it the most romantic, so that's why I prefer it over any other ship' on the show. However, that doesn't mean I don't like Spike and Buffy when they're together. I really enjoyed them in S7.

 

[Blaze]

Why do you think there is such a connection between liking a character and automatically shipping?

For some reason, I feel like this mostly apply to Angel and Spike. On this board, as soon as someone likes Angel it means that they are a Bangel and as soon as someone likes Spike it means that they are a Spuffy. I guess it's just a stereotype like everything else, in most cases it's true but in others, it isn't. With other characters like Anya, Willow, Cordy, Buffy; people don't tend to associate shipping that much, unless they specifically state that they like Xander and Anya, in which case people assume they ship Xanya (is that the ship's name?). Generally if someone loves two characters, they'll tend to like the ship also.

Does shipping mean you can only like one paring of a character?

I think it does for some people but definitely not for me. I love Willow and Oz, I love Willow and Tara, I love Willow and Kennedy (yes I know). Again, I guess it does depends on which character you're invested in. I was always more inclined to liking Willow's ships because she's gay and I'm bisexual, so it gave me something to identify. As much as I love Buffy, Angel and Spike (separately), I couldn't really get into Bangel or Spuffy, I like them both, but none are my all time favourite. I'm also a multi shipper on other shows, so I do not ship only one paring.

I also really dont like that you can't start an argument about a character without it turning into a shipping argument.

Completely agree. For some people it seems inconceivable that I think Angel is a better rounded character than Spike, and yet I defend Spuffy. I don't like that everything has to be about ship when the thread involves characters. Me liking Angel won't mean I ship him with Buffy, so me defending him on a thread doesn't mean I'm a Bangel. And I'm sure that applies to a lot of people.

So I was wondering what others though, does disliking a character mean anti-shipping. And is shipping too interconnected to separate from a character argument?

I think this is mostly the case. For me, if I dislike someone, I tend to not ship them with anyone. Like Riley and Buffy. But I've also had other shows that I disliked a character, but loved the pairing, which in turn made me like the character more. So I guess it's possible to change your mind. The opposite is just as valid though, I can absolutely love two characters separately but dislike the relationship that they have.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I definitely see what you mean; just a couple of days ago someone came on bashing Angel and everyone was all: "watch out for Bangels!" And we Spuffies certainly like Spike. So what gives?

When it comes to certain characters, I don't think shipping and likeability are always linked. For example, I am very much ok with Xander/Dawn though I can't even begin to guess the order of magnitude to which I prefer Cordy and Anya over Dawn. I think there was a time and a place for Xander/Cordy and the more I watch the series over time, the less I believe in Xanya--too much patronization and resentment on both ends; if she were to suddenly "come back" as characters are known to do, I can't say I"d root for them over Xander/Dawn.

Just the other day I admitted that I'd like to see Spike/Dru together as a newly ensouled couple navigating the territory of newfound morality together. And I've been known to ship Spuffy.

I adore both Oz and Tara and really couldn't tell you which I prefer with Willow.

Then again I really enjoy Buffy/Riley and I do like Riley quite a lot.

I also think Bangel is completely integral to the show and without it the series would lose so much of its emotional depth (and so much of its foundation)...I think Angel is swell and am quite fond of him, especially once he's out in LA.

I should also admit, for the purposes of this study, that I don't actually loathe any of the characters. I mean I don't ever feel an inherent and primal sense of disgust or disapproval for any of these fictional characters--rather I embrace them all as stimulating, entertaining entities and it's perhaps for this reason that I can accept the notion of any one of them with another while maintaining my own preferences?

All that being said, I suppose that when it comes to the show "Buffy"'s eponymous heroine there is naturally,inherently more of a value placed on the identity of her romantic match than there is with any other of the show's characters. I do think that when it comes to the age-old Bangel v Spuffy debate, more often than not those who ship Bangel prefer Angel's arc and purpose to those of Spike and we Spuffies prefer Spike's to Angel's. Personally I am impressed that a soulless Spike could make progress toward shifting his moral integrity to the point where he could exhibit loyalty, empathy, and grief even if ultimately succumbing to his vile nature and regressing--though immediately recognizing the act as horrific thereby once again suggesting progress. Angel's soul and--therefore--his ability to love and to exhibit the above traits were literally forced upon him and while he is to be forever commended for his devotion toward the pursuit of actively taking advantage of that fact in order to better himself and the world, ultimately his arc is less impressive to me because its origin is less organic.

I love stories in which a character seeks redemption when he could more immediately find peace and comfort by continuing on as that which comes most naturally to him. And when a villain is moved to do good (to do better) because of a heroine? I love it. Implausible though it may be, this is fiction and I root for him to become better and then once ensouled, I root for him to find himself with the heroine by whom he was inspired. So yes, when it comes to Spuffy, I think my willingness to embrace Spike's arc is inextricably linked therein.

(Side note: it's funny that in my everyday life, I never believe that anyone exhibiting negative characteristics will ever desire to better him/herself, let alone actually do so. Maybe it's because of this that I fully embrace the notion in fiction? Just a thought.)

 

[Robb Stark]

I also really dont like that you can't start an argument about a character without it turning into a shipping argument.

This. This. A thousand times this.

I feel like there's this perception that if you prefer one relationship over another (like Buffy/Angel over Buffy/Spike in my case), then that means you don't like the other. For me, I find that whenever I engage in debates about Buffy, Angel, Spike and their relationships with one another, I have to qualify all of my posts by saying that I'm not being intentionally partisan, I like all three of them (even if I like Angel the most) and that all three have have their strengths with one another. That does get a little tiresome after a while, especially because so many of the discussions become so circular.

 

[Kean]

This. This. A thousand times this.

I feel like there's this perception that if you prefer one relationship over another (like Buffy/Angel over Buffy/Spike in my case), then that means you don't like the other. For me, I find that whenever I engage in debates about Buffy, Angel, Spike and their relationships with one another, I have to qualify all of my posts by saying that I'm not being intentionally partisan, I like all three of them (even if I like Angel the most) and that all three have have their strengths with one another. That does get a little tiresome after a while, especially because so many of the discussions become so circular.

Equally, I feel that because I'm a B/A shipper and also someone who passionately dislikes Spike it is assumed that my ship is the reason behind it. I find that in discussions that my POV can often be dismissed because of this. I don't know why it seems implausible to arrive at both conclusions separately.

I think disliking a character can be as personal and meaningful as liking one. The reasons I dislike Spike so much are very personal to me. It isn't a petty, fandom my-vampire-is-better kind of stance. Spike is everything I don't want to see from a character or story. Given that i am confronted with him constantly I have strong feelings about how it effects my fandom. Sometimes I feel like we only want hear about those that like everything and don't have a bad word for the show. As if it is not acceptable to vocally dislike something in the verse without losing credibility.

There used to be a member here who adored Spike and hated, and I mean HATED Angel. We used to spar in threads a lot and through that I found out that hating Angel was very important to him. It meant something to his personal life, it represented a time he'd rather not engage with again. And so here was Angel reminding him about it over and over. Hating Angel had more meaning to him than defending Angel could ever mean to me.

I feel like if we should give more respect to the disliking of characters. When you come out against something you are usually labelled a "Hater", and not taken seriously after that. But I think there is some great character analysis to be had from these discussions. I think we need to stop dismissing the those who vocally dislike aspects of the show and engaging in discussions about why we dislike the things we do.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I feel like if we should give more respect to the disliking of characters. When you come out against something you are usually labelled a "Hater", and not taken seriously after that. But I think there is some great character analysis to be had from these discussions. I think we need to stop dismissing the those who vocally dislike aspects of the show and engaging in discussions about why we dislike the things we do.

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION], I hope I didn't come across in my last post as disapproving of those who do dislike (or even hate) aspects of the show or its characters! All I meant to say is that since I don't feel any deep negative emotion toward any, (actually with the exception of Warren), that is perhaps why it's easier for me to get behind the idea of most 'ship possibilities.

I completely agree that not only is character-hating valid but it is incredibly important for the the purposes of having discussions here. And I certainly have my dislike for many aspects of the show just as I enjoy defending others.

I will say that sometimes there are members who seem to hate certain characters and their arcs to the extent to which it certainly comes across to me that they do almost immediately dismiss any discussion in which points to the contrary are suggested. Some have even gone as far as to judge those who do like or try to understand these characters as somehow deviant or just as unfavorable in real life as the fictional characters in question. Of course those members are in the minority and I see their posts less and less but...that is when I get very upset.

 

[Kean]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION], I hope I didn't come across in my last post as disapproving of those who do dislike (or even hate) aspects of the show or its characters! All I meant to say is that since I don't feel any deep negative emotion toward any, (actually with the exception of Warren), that is perhaps why it's easier for me to get behind the idea of most 'ship possibilities.

Not at all, hun. If it comes off that I was directing that at you it wasn't my intention at all. I find you particularly open to discussion of Spike that is not in line with your own views and I quite enjoy discussing those issues with you. 🙂

I will say that sometimes there are members who seem to hate certain characters and their arcs to the extent to which it certainly comes across to me that they do almost immediately dismiss any discussion in which points to the contrary are suggested. Some have even gone as far as to judge those who do like or try to understand these characters as somehow deviant or just as unfavorable in real life as the fictional characters in question. Of course those members are in the minority and I see their posts less and less but...that is when I get very upset.

I know what you mean. Sometimes I think people do it intentionally to hurt, and maybe to be sensationalist, and other times I feel like people do it unwittingly. I've seen people from all factions of fandom do it and no matter what side it comes from I find it embarrassing and frustrating. As I'm sure you have, I've been on the end of such criticisms and it is never a nice place to be, if anything it just encourages further isolation and distrust among individual fandom groups.

 

[Robb Stark]

Equally, I feel that because I'm a B/A shipper and also someone who passionately dislikes Spike it is assumed that my ship is the reason behind it. I find that in discussions that my POV can often be dismissed because of this. I don't know why it seems implausible to arrive at both conclusions separately.

I think disliking a character can be as personal and meaningful as liking one. The reasons I dislike Spike so much are very personal to me. It isn't a petty, fandom my-vampire-is-better kind of stance. Spike is everything I don't want to see from a character or story. Given that i am confronted with him constantly I have strong feelings about how it effects my fandom. Sometimes I feel like we only want hear about those that like everything and don't have a bad word for the show. As if it is not acceptable to vocally dislike something in the verse without losing credibility.

There used to be a member here who adored Spike and hated, and I mean HATED Angel. We used to spar in threads a lot and through that I found out that hating Angel was very important to him. It meant something to his personal life, it represented a time he'd rather not engage with again. And so here was Angel reminding him about it over and over. Hating Angel had more meaning to him than defending Angel could ever mean to me.

I feel like if we should give more respect to the disliking of characters. When you come out against something you are usually labelled a "Hater", and not taken seriously after that. But I think there is some great character analysis to be had from these discussions. I think we need to stop dismissing the those who vocally dislike aspects of the show and engaging in discussions about why we dislike the things we do.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It's easy, very easy, to gloss over personal issues or reasons when we all don't really, truly know one another. I know that for me, I like Angel the most because I identify with him the most, and I enjoy his relationship with Buffy the most because it reminds me of a girl I used to know. There are other reasons, but those are the core ones.

And it goes the other way. When you (the proverbial "you") connect to something in a way others don't, especially when it's in a negative way, you obviously have a unique perspective that others don't, when in turn allows you to discuss the topic from a different angle. You're right, that can lead to productive discussion. However, I think at the same time it's important to recognize that the people you're discussing with aren't aware of personal circumstances, so it's natural that they won't see things from your point of view. It drives me insane seeing people defending "Seeing Red" in any way because that scene stirs up a lot of bad memories about someone I care deeply for, but I'm able to distance myself enough on here and realize that the people I'm arguing with don't know that side.

 

[Kean]

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It's easy, very easy, to gloss over personal issues or reasons when we all don't really, truly know one another. I know that for me, I like Angel the most because I identify with him the most, and I enjoy his relationship with Buffy the most because it reminds me of a girl I used to know. There are other reasons, but those are the core ones.

Yes, exactly. I could name a tonne of superficial reasons as to why I like Buffy and Angel together but they mean nothing compared to the crucial reasons. I don't talk about Buffy and Angel online because they are so pretty, I talk about them online because they shaped my adolescence and in a lot of ways who they are individually, and yes together as a couple, is a metaphor in which I choose to see the world. Buffy and Angel make a personal sense to me that I could never fully explain.

However, I think at the same time it's important to recognize that the people you're discussing with aren't aware of personal circumstances, so it's natural that they won't see things from your point of view. It drives me insane seeing people defending "Seeing Red" in any way because that scene stirs up a lot of bad memories about someone I care deeply for, but I'm able to distance myself enough on here and realize that the people I'm arguing with don't know that side.

You're right about people not being aware of your personal reasons. In a way it is unfair to even engage on that level but I think it is unavoidable, particular with this verse which was designed to be iconic and become part of our lives.

"Seeing Red" is my breaking point. What that scene, the fallout and the message the show put out with it is immeasurably important to me. Personally, I believe the discussions we have regards that scene are the most important discussions we will ever have as a fandom because it has a negative impact and real world relevance that nothing else in this verse ever has. Nothing in this verse is more personal to me than the discussions we have on this scene. And I know I am only seeing it a certain way but I believe in my interpretation so fiercely that anything else feels wrong to me. I'm a young woman in my 20s and a feminist. I'm confronted with rape culture every single day of my life. I've made it my area of academic study and for me, a girl who grew up with Buffy Summers as her hero, to watch my female-ass-kicking-show and she Buffy confronted with rape in her own life and then for her show to not even extend her the dignity of her own voice in her own story, well... it honestly horrifies me. So when we have these discussions and all we end up talking about is Spike, I damn near lose my mind. I wish I could be more neutral but it just means too much to me to not be as vocal and impassioned as I feel.

 

[tbessie]

Although I love BtVS and the Whedonverse, and probably annoy or amuse my friends with my knowledge of plots and character arcs, I have to say I've never gotten the "shipping" thing.

All the arguments and vehement disagreements people have about it, and the importance they ascribe to it seems so ridiculous and is one of the few things that - despite the above - make me wants to say "Hey! It's a freaking TV show! Get a life!" 🙂

I swear never to use 'ship' to mean anything aside from a boat or transporting a package.

- Tim

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Why do you think there is such a connection between liking a character and automatically shipping?

Maybe. Buffy are Spike are my favorite characters, and perhaps it's just coincidence that I also ship them together? But I also really love Darla - but I don't ship her and Angel.

Does shipping mean you can only like one paring of a character?

For me, yes. Shipping means that you believe completely that two characters belong together, and no one else is acceptable for said character. For me, it's Buffy and Spike. It's not like, "Well, Buffy might do ok with Xander or Angel, but really I'd prefer her with Spike." No. I believe completely without reserve that Spike and Buffy are soul-mates. There is no one else for either. So, for me, yes I guess it does mean that.

I also really dont like that you can't start an argument about a character without it turning into a shipping argument.

Yeah, agreed.

So I was wondering what others though, does disliking a character mean anti-shipping. And is shipping too interconnected to separate from a character argument?

No, disliking a character does not mean anti-shipping - for me, anyway. For instance, I dislike Willow, but don't dislike Tillow.

And is shipping too connected to a character? For some, yes. For me, Spuffy is my main interest in the show, and really the only aspect of fandom I'm interested in participating in at this point. I love Buffy and always will - it will always be my favorite show and I re-watch it often, but Spuffy is what continues to keep me engaged...the hope and belief that I have that someday they'll end up together...and if they don't, well, they should have.

 

[Sweet J]

I don't ship anyone really, I just have characters that I felt added to the show, and I therefore liked, and those that stuck out like a sore thumb, ruining the atmosphere, and therefore I dislike.

I enjoyed Spike as a character from Season 2 until Season 5-6, then he starts getting uninteresting and ruining the show, but I started liking him again in Angel season 5. Spike is by far one of the funniest characters. So although I like both Spike and Buffy, I don't "ship them".

In terms of "Shipping", is feeling that the Buffy and Angel relationship is one of the best portrayals of a love I've ever seen, classified as shipping?

Although Riley and Buffy was far more realistic to have worked out, that wasn't a very enjoyable relationship to watch, but not entirely pointless either. Riley added a fair bit to the show, he was a decent character.

Tara sucked as a character, Tara didn't add anything to the show, unless you count her croaking- Which was awesome by the way. When she died I was jumping up and down like Giles in band candy shouting "hit him again"!
No offense to Amber Benson, she's a good actor, I just don't feel Tara added to the atmosphere in a good way. The same can kind of be said for Anya, especially in season 7, but at least she was funny and interesting before this and she did add to the show by giving us the "Wish", "doppelgangland", "Graduation day" etc.

I contemplated quitting watching buffy altogether for a time when the show, IMHO, suffered a great deal with its focus shift in season 6, that is, turning into a sleazy soap opera, with a host of disturbing relationships and "nemeses".🙄

In Angel the series I really enjoyed the character of Darla, but did't ship Angel & Darla either. Even though Darla is fascinating and I really enjoyed watching their relationship develop, with the same kind of going for Nina for that matter. I also liked Kate Lockley, and wished she didn't disappear from the TV verse, but at no time did I desire to see her hook up with Angel.

I dig the character of Charles Gunn but didn't feel like him being with Fred really felt right, he was more a Gwen Raiden sort of dude I thought.

I would also like to point out that the fan focus on Spike trying to rape Buffy is a bit overblown, I mean I don't remember there being such a focus when Faith attempted to rape and kill Xander.😕
Even though she did this, I still like Faith the character, she added quite a bit to the show.