Love can twist you up emotionally

Now let me start off by saying there is no solid proof I am only supposing. To start to gain knowledge is to wonder.

Was Angel and Darla in love ? They were the equivalent of a couple married for 50 years. In their case over 100 years.

Yes they spent a lot of time arguing with one another. Most of their time together was spent killing humans. There was passion. A lot of passion.

When Angel tried to save Darla from the senior partners, I saw someone acting more out of love than just wanting to save her so she could have a chance at redemption. When he was first ensouled and Darla told him to go he was disgusting, she was only disgusted with him having a soul. When she first saw him in the tavern, I saw that love at first sight expression on her face. She was hurt losing him to his soul.

We can't get inside their minds to know for sure but can examine their actions towards one another, and examine the words they say to each other.


It was lust in Darla's part: "I can eat you up."
Angel thought it was a one-night stand: his turning night.
I think Angel did want to save her so that he could be saved too, Darla wanted Angel even it meant going to hell. She understood him at the end; mission, redemption but it didn't change the fact; she still wanted him.
So, passion is there, attraction is there, they lived together for 100 years, so that may mean friendship and mutual understanding is there, harmony is there. I say love is in the air. 🙂
 
I don't know....I have a hard time believing that Spike loved Dru. I mean....I think he thought he loved her. I think he thought he loved Buffy as well but didn't realize truly what love felt like until he got his soul. You can see how his body language, actions, attitude etc. change toward Buffy after he's got his soul.

Some people may disagree with me on this, but....I really don't think that Vampires without souls are capable of truly loving anyone. I can understand the other side of it and can see why people would say that Spike loved Dru, Buffy, etc. but I just don't agree.

I completely disagree. If you are using the absolute of love being absent in a souless being, then surely the opposite must be true? A being with a soul cannot hate, which clearly isn't the case. I was under the impression having a soul had more to do with free will.
 
I completely disagree. If you are using the absolute of love being absent in a souless being, then surely the opposite must be true? A being with a soul cannot hate, which clearly isn't the case. I was under the impression having a soul had more to do with free will.

Hmmmm point taken....
 
It is ok to say that perhaps Angel and Darla weren't in love. I don't know for sure. It is only one possibility from what seen.

If say that demons cannot feel love or any emotions than Angel could not have been in love with Buffy. Or for that matter later have feelings for Cordelia than Nina.
 
It is ok to say that perhaps Angel and Darla weren't in love. I don't know for sure. It is only one possibility from what seen.

If say that demons cannot feel love or any emotions than Angel could not have been in love with Buffy. Or for that matter later have feelings for Cordelia than Nina.

Angel had his soul which in my opinion is what makes him capable of loving.
 
Well I have said before because he has a soul than it permits him to experience love. Then some others say no he is demon demons can't love or feel. Any living being with or without souls can experience emotions. We have Drusilla and Spike, James and Elizabeth, Buffy and Angel, Angel and Nina, Angel and Cordelia, Cordelia and Xander, Xander and Anya, Willow and Oz, Willow and Tara, Buffy and Riley, Spike and Buffy. And yes Angel and Darla who have behaved towards one another really no different than the other couples. The ones without souls have expressed passion, romance, initimancy all elements of love.

Now speaking of love. Along with being busy with work, I have become involved with someone so I won't be able to contribute to discussions as often as before.
 
Except that they tried to kill each other, left each other for dead, etc.

Come on!!

That in itself can't really be used, as in other relationships in the Vampire world could also be seen as a pledge. The most noble of the Vampire, would see that as the ultimate romantic notion, besting your Sire...
BUT in the case of Darla and Angel there are too many documented occasions of saying, not suggesting, that these two were bound by a lust, but NEVER a love.
No amount of hypothesis and new age hippy thinking will ever counter both fierce denial from both parties, as well as the basic offhand comments they make. Neither Darla or Angel/us loved each other....there is no argument here. Just cold hard facts.

Well I have said before because he has a soul than it permits him to experience love. Then some others say no he is demon demons can't love or feel. Any living being with or without souls can experience emotions. We have Drusilla and Spike, James and Elizabeth, Buffy and Angel, Angel and Nina, Angel and Cordelia, Cordelia and Xander, Xander and Anya, Willow and Oz, Willow and Tara, Buffy and Riley, Spike and Buffy. And yes Angel and Darla who have behaved towards one another really no different than the other couples. The ones without souls have expressed passion, romance, initimancy all elements of love.
This statment is not a logical train of thought at all.
I see absolutely no reason for the long list of couples as all you have done is list them with no reasoning for doing so.
IF you were sticking to your theory that Demons can appreciate and experience love, i do agree, but instead of putting forth a solid argument, you have written a list of Demon/Demon, Demon/Human and Human/Human relationships.....your time would have been better spent identifying specific ones and giving a thorough analysis of how they, in your opinion, were in love and the proof. Instead you have given the entire list of relationships, in an unnecessary rant.

i.e
Demon/Demon
Spike and Drusilla or Elizabeth and James.
Both these are relationships that are, in my opinion, born from an actual love. I see the argument of the 'love' in these cases, as being born from a residual humanity, but to me, the reason its actual love as opposed to faux love, is the intensity of these relationships, and the length of them. Also, as i have stated before, and what PJ also commented on, IF its possible for a demon without a soul to experience one emotion, then its totally plausible for said demon to experience the entire range......

Demon/Human
Angel and Buffy, Spike and Buffy or Angel and Cordelia.
These couples both exhibit in some senses a form of true love, at least to a point. Angel's feelings towards Buffy are genuine, so much so that when he is reverted to his old self, Angelus, that he feels a disgust at the notion of it.
He doesn't want Buffy dead for loving him, he wants Buffy to pay for making Angel love.
Same with Spike. Spike is a romantic, thats his character. He see's love as an eternal pledge, one that exists beyond the here and now. He first shows this with Drusilla and goes to extreme lengths for this woman, one who, from our own view, wasn't as 'in love' with Spike, as he was with her. BUT when he begins to see Buffy on a different standpoint, we are lead to believe this is from season 2, he has a lust for her that is more then his passion of Vampire Slayer, its seeing her as an equal...in a strange way.
Before now, he had viewed the Slayer as his nemesis, he's Lex Luthor to the Slayers 'Superman', but with Buffy he finds that she isnt above anyone, she aknowledges her vulnerability, her humanity, and that inturn allows Spike to view his, thus allows him to realise the lust for the kill, is lost to the lust, then ultimate love, for Buffy.
Angel and Cordelia isnt born from a latent desire or lust, though an argument could be made for Cordelia being she thought Angel 'lush' when she first met him, but i do believe that their relationship is born from a mutual respect of each others status as a 'Champion' and even from the fact that they see a lack of potential 'mates' due to the nature of their lives.
This does not mean their love is actually any less important, infact i do believe it does breed to a point where Cordelia could bring out a moment of absolute Happiness in Angel.

Miscellaneous
Xander and Anya or Willow and Oz.
These relationships are hard to place in one specific catagory, as though arguably they are ALL Human, there is a demon side to each relationship.
Xander and Anya are both HUmans for the entire course of their full relationship, however, Anya still hold the residual aspects of her demon heritage for the entire run. We are constantly reminded that she is now a Human who was a Demon, yet while she was a demon, she retained a soul. So there is no difference to Anyanka and Anya, as they are the same person just in different situations.
Willow and Oz, again hold a difference in that Oz is a demon, but only for 3 nights a month.
BUT we see that this demon part of him, does and will eventually transcend the three nights and become a part of his life in general.
Yet there.

Without going over old ground in the some of the other relationships, i will end there.
NONE of the Human relationships that have been mentioned above have little or no bearing on this whole conversation because we know that humans are capable of love, as its part of us.
 
The point is to compare differences and or similarities between human/human, demon/demon, demon/human relationships.

Anya kept her feelings for Xander going from human to demon.

The senior partners must have known something they wanted her brought back as a distraction for Angel.
 
E
Edmund Blackadder
YOU have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, none at all
The point is to compare differences and or similarities between human/human, demon/demon, demon/human relationships.

Anya kept her feelings for Xander going from being human to demon.

The senior partners must have known something they wanted her brought back as a distraction for Angel.

You cannot compare a any relationships at all, simply because every single one is different.

As for Darla's resurrection. There isnt any doubt that W&H knew that Darla would be a huge mindfunk on Angel, but again thats because of their history, her relationship with Angelus, and what the effect of a Human Darla would have on a Champion Souled Angel....they knew he would try to save her, they also assumed that he would fail, thus helping him go over the edge......This is still not proof or evidence of a love that was non existent.
 
Angelus was too much in love with himself to love anybody else. I don't think Darla(in all her forms) and Angel(in all his forms) were in love. I will say this though, both of them denying they were in love, isn't conclusive proof. Few great characters honestly express their true feelings. If there was any feelings of love, then it could only come from Darla. No way in Hell, Angel or Angelus ever.. Darla could've loved him, but I doubt it.

As for the "can a demon without a soul" love? There is another explanation, I think perhaps a better one than, if a being can feel one emotion it can feel all.

A soul is fundamentally about having free will. Free will( while being a bit of an oxymoron in itself) is just a term for explaining moral choice. Which, is why I am now convinced Spike cannot be held accountable for his "attempted rape".

Love is an instinct, a desire, its not something you control. Being able to chose between right and wrong has little to do with love. I think people have too high an opinion on what love really is. As Spike said, its not brains children, its blood. Blood working inside you to work its will. Free will doesn't come into it at all. So, Soul or no soul, doesn't matter.

Of course, feel free to completely disregard this, as I dont think I have ever been in love....

Or had a soul for that matter. 😉
 
Everything you say PJ, i can seewhere you are coming from, but the onlything in the case of Angel and Darla that makesme believe 100% that they weren't in love, wasn't how hard they protested it, there was one scene while Darla was pregnant, she makes an offhanded remark, just a throw away line, where she simply states something about never experiencing love in all her existence, until Connor was inside.
That is the convincing comment in this argument for. Its as if she doesnt realise she is saying it, its just honest, from the heart, Connors soul.
I cant remember the exact quote or Episode, i thinki posted it here.......if not, then i KNOW Galathea will remember it.
 
Lullaby, thats it.

Darla: "Look, I know. It wants to come out. I can feel it. It's ready. It's just - I can't let it. I can't let because... because..."

Angel: "You love it."

Darla: "Completely. I love it completely. I-I-I don't think I've ever loved anything as much as this life that's inside of me."

Angel: "Well - you've never loved anything, Darla."

Darla: "That's true. Four hundred years and I never did - till now. - I don't know what to do."

The Writers painstakingly make it obvious that they want everyone to know what Angel/us and Darla have is not love.......
 
Oh, I totally know that scene. Julie is fantastic on that roof. Some of her best acting is up there.

Edit. Me=Slow.

Well, I always do like to take my time. 🙂
 
E
Edmund Blackadder
hehe...yeah. Its SOOO underplayed that, to me, its better then any other argument, because its not an argument...and she really is great in that arc. Her run in those few episodes is magnificent
Anya kept same traits and feelings from demon to human to demon to human again. When Darla came back as human she still had the same demeanour, traits, and feelings as before as a demon.

When Angel was searching for Darla and how he said she would want something with a view if that is not someone showing feelings of love...

I just saw that episode the other day and it affected me personally. It got me thinking about the length people go to for one they love. Darla killed the gypsies who infected him with a soul. Angel almost killed Lindsey when wanted to know where she was. I can say that I would do anything I needed to save the one I love. Even kill. Anyone who insults or threatens someone I love.
 
When Angel was searching for Darla and how he said she would want something with a view if that is not someone showing feelings of love...

Angel knowing that Darla would like something with a view only shows that he knows her. They spent years and years together so it's only natural that he would know she prefers a place with a view. It's got nothing to do with love.
 
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