Mark Watches Buffy (and Angel) #2

[Cheese Slices]

I'm seriously thinking about stopping reading his reviews. Everyone just went way out of line since Smashed, with people being bashed just because their opinion differs, and going as far as some sending rape threats/insulting messages to Spuffy shipper on tumblr. What the hell is going on ?
Besides, I find Mark himself being one-sided and oblivious to what's actually happening in the show.

 

[janas]

I liked review for "Dad". He has talked about Darla and never does anyone, not in this episode. Usually, she is not mentioned.

 

[xaphania]

I'm seriously thinking about stopping reading his reviews. Everyone just went way out of line since Smashed, with people being bashed just because their opinion differs, and going as far as some sending rape threats/insulting messages to Spuffy shipper on tumblr. What the hell is going on ?
Besides, I find Mark himself being one-sided and oblivious to what's actually happening in the show.

I'm done with Mark Watches. I am appalled and disgusted by what happened in the comments section of the Smashed review, or rather, what Mark let happen and some of the things he said to the people who visit his site.

He's lost a lot of readers, I think, and not just Spike/Spuffy fans. There's already a Fandom Wank report about what happened and it raises some very interesting points, and lots of reaction on Livejournal from people directly involved.

Definitely done with it, I'm not giving him another page hit (which equals ad revenue) and I hope others do the same.

It's a shame, because in this diminishing fandom it was good to have such a large group of people talking about BtVS again. :/

 

[ladydorotea]

Don't take me wrong here - I have not participated in Mark's Great Spuffy Meltdown of 2012 in any other way but as an observer. I am disgusted by the reported 'rape threats' - and I cannot believe anybody in their sane mind would go that far , so I attribute 'that' particular side effect to a group of malicious trolls taking pleasure in fanning the flames of the conflict rather than being genuinely involved in the discussion. That aside, I was very much on Mark's side *when he just posted his review* of Smashed because - heck it was the first time in my time in this fandom that I saw somebody daring to be honest about their first impression as a first time viewer of this particular episode - without fearing of being mowed down by a crowd of people with opposing view. What happened next was unpleasant - but I daresay it was unpleasant for both sides as the heated argument went too far and as I said already was exploited by internet trolls. Yet, the incident made me actually go back to reading Mark's reviews again, because I had the same reaction on that same episode when I first watched it and I feel that I saw what the writers intended me to see - in that particular moment of S6.

 

[Cheese Slices]

[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION] : Of course Mark has every right to have an opinion that differs with quite a lot of people (and not only Spuffy shippers). I'm not gonna explain how I don't agree with it because it's off-topic, but I'm still deeply shocked on how regular members and Mark himself treated people who dared thinking differently and expressed their thoughts very respectfully. A lot of them seem, imho, blinded with a sort of extreme pushy feminism which therefore not only isn't feminism anymore, but also gets seriously ridiculous.
But then, as I said ,to each his own, but I can't stand the fact that people get treated poorly and personally attacked because of their opinion.

 

[Kean]

[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION] : Of course Mark has every right to have an opinion that differs with quite a lot of people (and not only Spuffy shippers). I'm not gonna explain how I don't agree with it because it's off-topic, but I'm still deeply shocked on how regular members and Mark himself treated people who dared thinking differently and expressed their thoughts very respectfully. A lot of them seem, imho, blinded with a sort of extreme pushy feminism which therefore not only isn't feminism anymore, but also gets seriously ridiculous.
But then, as I said ,to each his own, but I can't stand the fact that people get treated poorly and personally attacked because of their opinion.

People have been getting banned for having dissenting views of Mark and his mods since his reviews started. I know of a girl who was a banned because she liked and defended Riley, and another person who was banned because they didn't agree about the reasons behind Willow's dissent into magic. Mark Watches has always conducted itself in this manner, it's just that this time it went nuclear.

 

[ladydorotea]

I'm still deeply shocked on how regular members and Mark himself treated people who dared thinking differently and expressed their thoughts very respectfully.

Well, since I have been on the receiving end of fandom wars I am not surprised by the intensity or fervor of the discussion. Usually the majority has their way though. In Mark's case he refused to bow down to the majority and from that point on things went ugly for both him and his opponents. Which is disturbing - but completely expect-able, IMHO. Recalling the days of the S8 ending arcs - I would say things on Mark Watches site were quite mild.

A lot of them seem, imho, blinded with a sort of extreme pushy feminism which therefore not only isn't feminism anymore, but also gets seriously ridiculous.
But then, as I said ,to each his own, but I can't stand the fact that people get treated poorly and personally attacked because of their opinion.

Well, feminism is an ideology of sorts, people do get extreme while projecting their political agenda. It is not my place or right to define what *is* feminism and what is not. And mind that both sides got personally attacked, as far as I could see. When the subject of discussion is as touchy as rape - things tend to get ugly pretty quickly.

What disturbed me most, was actually the fact that so little voices in the fandom called for tolerance and allowing of difference in opinion in this case. It seems that this fandom can only have one extreme or the other. 10 years ago one was supposedly the oppressed minority - now it is almost the exact opposite with the other ship being suspected in all sort of malicious pranks and what-nots whenever somebody of prominence decides to have their own opinion.

 

[Cheese Slices]

Well, since I have been on the receiving end of fandom wars I am not surprised by the intensity or fervor of the discussion. Usually the majority has their way though. In Mark's case he refused to bow down to the majority and from that point on things went ugly for both him and his opponents. Which is disturbing - but completely expect-able, IMHO. Recalling the days of the S8 ending arcs - I would say things on Mark Watches site were quite mild.

I don't think it has anything to do with "bowing down to the majority": he has his opinion on the topic and that's cool, but you make it sound like he's some sort of dissident coming from a totalitarian country, where everyone is forced to think otherwise; I just think the majority disagrees because they truly, well, disagree.


Well, feminism is an ideology of sorts, people do get extreme while projecting their political agenda. It is not my place or right to define what *is* feminism and what is not. And mind that both sides got personally attacked, as far as I could see. When the subject of discussion is as touchy as rape - things tend to get ugly pretty quickly.

Except that, unless you're talking about Mark's being spoiled, there is no actual rape to argue over (in Smashed and so on). And I'm seriously objective gal here.
"Feminism" is certainly a complex subject that can be really tricky, but in a nutshell I'd say : Women=Men, nothing more nothing less, and that's definitely not what I saw.

What disturbed me most, was actually the fact that so little voices in the fandom called for tolerance and allowing of difference in opinion in this case. It seems that this fandom can only have one extreme or the other. 10 years ago one was supposedly the oppressed minority - now it is almost the exact opposite with the other ship being suspected in all sort of malicious pranks and what-nots whenever somebody of prominence decides to have their own opinion.

You know I honestly don't feel that way. I mean sure there're probably some Spuffy shippers (because I guess that's what you're talking about) with bad intentions, but following a certain amount of Spuffy blogs, I'd argue that 90% of them is very open-minded and never shows hate towards other ships or shipper (which I believe you're implying)
You're right about the lack of reasonable reaction though, it's pretty scary, but I tend to think trouble-makers yell louder than them.

 

[Kairos]

I am disgusted by the reported 'rape threats' - and I cannot believe anybody in their sane mind would go that far , so I attribute 'that' particular side effect to a group of malicious trolls taking pleasure in fanning the flames of the conflict rather than being genuinely involved in the discussion.

Given Mark's history of gross misinterpretation, there's also a possibility that someone was angry about someone else's treatment of the subject and made a poorly-phrased complaint, and Mark looked at it and decided it was a rape threat.

Not a pleasant thought, but neither is the malicious troll theory, and I wouldn't put a lot of faith in Mark's ability to understand what was going on in a tense exchange.

 

[ladydorotea]

Given Mark's history of gross misinterpretation, there's also a possibility that someone was angry about someone else's treatment of the subject and made a poorly-phrased complaint, and Mark looked at it and decided it was a rape threat.
Not a pleasant thought, but neither is the malicious troll theory, and I wouldn't put a lot of faith in Mark's ability to understand what was going on in a tense exchange.

Tis true that Mark has a tendency of projecting everything he discusses on himself and his experiences. Tis also true that he ia so much in love with the process of reviewing things *his own way* that he often looses thread of actual discussion. His buttons are extremely easily pushed, and his site is moderated the way it makes certain that his word is the last. (Unlike say some other forums - like for example A.V. Club discussion forums that have recently ran full Buffy - Angel series rewatch that was a great pleasure and fantastic experience to read and participate.)

Still, we are talking 6 th season of the show here. Weeks of previous reviews. Folks who participated in the meltdown incident have been there from the start and surely should have expected his particular style of reaction and his moderators reaction. Why was everybody so agitated or particularly surprised ? My only surprise was that it happened 2 weeks earlier. I am also *not* looking forward to his review of AtS Forgiving, or the entirety of AtS S4 - knowing Mark's particular affection for Cordelia.
I think both sides overreacted. I also think that continuous string of Mark condemnations in all sorts of fandom media is disproportionate and plain out ridiculous. He is what he is - take his reviews with a grain of salt and accept that Whedon's shows will always provoke extreme reactions from some first time watchers.

 

[Anca]

[MENTION=10219]Kairos[/MENTION] There was no misinterpretation, the threats are real. This girl didn't even read Markwatches and she got hate and rape threats, it affected her so much that she went on hiatus with her tumblr account
http://iamnotthedamselindistress.tumblr.com/

Spoiler

Because you're part of the Spuffy loving clique on here, I want you to know that you are rape supportive and a misogynistic ableist. Everyone constantly says how sweet you are but you're obviously an idiot because you don't realize that you're just excusing rape.

OMFG just shut the **** up. I called you out and you didn't like it. You're a rape apologist. Just accept it and get over yourself. You can also drop the sweet ****ing act because we all know that you're a bitch. You get your famous friends to back you up to make you seem so tough. I'm so scared of the Spuffy clique! NOT. I have no issues unlike you. My OTP isn't about rape unlike Spuffy. Stupid bitch. BYE.

Guess you didn't turn off your anon in time. I am done with you 2. You rocked my braincsells. What are you going to do? Fred was an idiot and so are you. I hope you get raped so you know what's its liked. Maybe one day you won't be able to walk so you'll stop being a ****ing ableist. You're probably just end up with some disgusting pig who beats you because you're a slutty whore. I forgot. You're a ugly sluttly whore just like Cordelia. LATER.

 

[dexeded]

Yup, the rape threats were definitely real. Still, I think they were a product of trolling, people fanning the flames for fun.

I think the Spuffy side didn't explain themselves very well, and I think that Mark mods are out of line. Come on, people are allowed to have their own opinions. That said, I think Mark Watches and Mark Reads are places that are very very strictly policed becaused they're supposed to be a kind of 'safe haven', plus all of Mark's bad experiences, which I think the Spuffies on there should have expected. The website caters to some extent a specific demographic--any extreme opinions are censored, the users banned. I mean, c'mon, the website even bans the use of words like 'insane'. That should give you a measure of how touchy they are.

 

[Aloverssoulz]

About two months ago on here I wrote in thread about how Spuffy attracted the worst kind of fans to the show and that they divided and ruined a lot of the fandom. I knew from the way he spoke about Spike in his season 6 episodes before "Smashed" that once "Smashed" was reviewed there would be a huge outrage and fight, and that is exactly what happened.

I'm not saying other shippers are innocent, I know Bangles and Willow/Kennedy shippers can be a little nutty, nor am I saying that all "Spuffy" fans are immature (nearly every Spuffy on this website is amazing, I love you guys/girls ^.^), but most of the time whenever anything remotely negative is said about Spuffy (or really, just Spike) you end up getting a backlash from the fangirls.

Every fandom has that one character or ship that always divides people and brings in those that take negative things said about their favourite characters as personal attacks.

Keep in mind is this coming from a HUGE Spike and Buffy fan. I give full credit to the Spuffy relationship for bringing BtVS back to it's dark and depressing roots after a sunny and bright season 4 and season 5. I'm one of the handful that thinks season 6 is one of the best seasons of the show.

---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------

Sorry for posting twice! I just barely missed the 15 minute mark to edit my message >;/

EDIT: GONE IS UP! http://markwatches.net/reviews/2012/07/mark-watches-buffy-the-vampire-slayer-s06e11-gone/

I liked this review and agree with him on Dawn, Xander and Spike. I am excited to see how he handles the near rape and then murder in "Dead Things" I think by the end of the season he'll either hate what the show done or be uber depressed at everything that happened xD

 

[Cheese Slices]

[MENTION=11031]Aloverssoulz[/MENTION] : I respectfully completely disagree with you. I think you can find in any ship fandom the same amount of braindead people. Moreover, I'd say 90% of the spuffy shipper are very open-minded persons: if you check out their blog, you'll see that most of them also ship "opposite" ships like bangel, and I personally never saw any insult of any kind about other characters,ships,or whaterver. More importantly, they're never blinded by their love for Spuffy nor approve everything related to it.

---------- Post added at 10:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 PM ----------
[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION] : Sorry, but I don't get your point. Still Spike/somebody ? What do you mean ? That Spuffy shippers can't ship Spike with someone else ? Or that we don't like focus/like other characters whereas other shippers do ? I don't understand at all 🙂

 

[WileyDairyGnome]

I'm a Spuffy shipper, and I totally respected Mark's reactions to Smashed and Spuffy. Not everyone is a Spuffy shipper. I think it's ridiculous how other shippers reacted to it. These people are obviously immature and unstable, making threats like that are disgusting and stupid and just wrong. I had no idea that this was going on until Mark's "Gone" review when he mentioned it at the beginning.

And I'm also mad that they spoiled Mark, humph.

 

[dexeded]

I’m hoping that Xander dislikes Spike because of his personality, not the fact that he’s a vampire, since… well, he is engaged to an ex-vengeance demon, so it’s not exactly fair.

Basically Xander's worst and most enduring flaw.


I think I reacted the same way as Mark in the Gone review with regards to Spike and Buffy: sympathetic and confused. Oh, so confused. I was always second-guessing my reactions and feelings in S6.

 

[ladydorotea]

I think it's ridiculous how other shippers reacted to it. These people are obviously immature and unstable, making threats like that are disgusting and stupid and just wrong.

And here we go again - you automatically assume that trolls who were 'making threats' and are in your own words 'immature and unstable' were 'other shippers' , not habitual troublemakers who simply enjoyed stirring up trouble, regardless of the matter discussed. And so goes the arguments of Spuffy being tolerant and respectful of 'other shippers'...

 

[WileyDairyGnome]

And here we go again - you automatically assume that trolls who were 'making threats' and are in your own words 'immature and unstable' were 'other shippers' , not habitual troublemakers who simply enjoyed stirring up trouble, regardless of the matter discussed. And so goes the arguments of Spuffy being tolerant and respectful of 'other shippers'...

Well, I assumed they were indeed other shippers because well... I personally doubt someone who actually shipped Spuffy would go to the extent on bashing anyone else who shipped them.

I wasn't being disrespectful or insulting "other shippers" in general, I was specifically talking about the people who were starting the fights and making the disgusting threats in the first place which yes I believe shows immaturity.

And I never said that Spuffy shippers are always tolerant and respectful. I'm sure many of them can be nasty as well. Like I said, I wasn't trying to argue against "other shippers" that aren't Spuffy, just those people who were creating the trouble.

 

[ladydorotea]

[MENTION=11396]WileyDairyGnome[/MENTION] To close the topic (of 'other shippers being' malignant towards Spuffy on Mark's forum) I just want to comment that in my observation this particular rewatch does not have many die-hard het shippers besides the Spuffies. If you read through most of the comments maybe you find some, but I have not seen many folks actively shipping (Bangel or Briley or Bander or Cangel) in all earlier/current seasons. There was in fact a lot of generic anti-shipping going on - especially among the first time watchers who were cheered and encouraged not to ship Buffy with anybody in earlier seasons. So, what is happening right now I attributed to that same anti-shipping theme going on - and not necessarily from 'other shippers'. If you don't count Willow-Tara shippers who it seems are the only folks who are numerous and not Spuffy on Mark's forums.

 

[KellGreen]

Yup, the rape threats were definitely real. Still, I think they were a product of trolling, people fanning the flames for fun.

I think the Spuffy side didn't explain themselves very well, and I think that Mark mods are out of line. Come on, people are allowed to have their own opinions. That said, I think Mark Watches and Mark Reads are places that are very very strictly policed becaused they're supposed to be a kind of 'safe haven', plus all of Mark's bad experiences, which I think the Spuffies on there should have expected. The website caters to some extent a specific demographic--any extreme opinions are censored, the users banned. I mean, c'mon, the website even bans the use of words like 'insane'. That should give you a measure of how touchy they are.

Thank you - I think this explains it well for me. For some reason, I was kinda clueless and thinking that it would be more open minded and all, but maybe, TO ME/FOR ME, it's kinda too PC? IDK...

I was there, seeing the comments and all as they were going up, but it was pretty obvious that rationality was someplace else. Some major miscommuniction was taking place, which was magnified by emotions and knee-jerk reactions. I was SOOO wanting to post something, but i really didn't think it would be of help at that point. I could SORT OF understand if this crap had resulted from SR, but over Smashed...just doesn't make any sort of sense to me. Srsly, how do so many ppl still see women, especially Buffy, as perpetual victims incapable of autonomy over themselves and their lives? Ugh. I should know these types exist, but i just thought Mark would be less misogynistic.