Meta - Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards

[Skanky Vamp]

No, he waited till he arrived at Wolfram and Hart for all that to kick off. 😀

Why was the Hyperion a house of evil when he went to Wolfram and Hart? I think it was only mentioned once.. never got the idea it was much of anything at all.

 

[The Bronze]

I think that the comics aren't doing the best job at portraying Spike as a full-blown member of the gang.

Oh yeah there's definitely some room for improvement here. It seems as you say to be an issue of time and space in the comics. I feel Giles is being sidelined from the group in a similar way after his big return. I haven't seen the upcoming covers but that sounds really promising. We could do with the bond between scoobies being strengthened again, it's not always been easy to see in the comics.

 

[Silverspike]

"Why was the Hyperion a house of evil when he went to Wolfram and Hart? I think it was only mentioned once.. never got the idea it was much of anything at all."

No you misunderstand what I was trying to say. He went to Wolfram and heart and accepted their offer, which WAS a house of evil. 😀

 

[thetopher]

I think if you can explain to me how not wearing the coat will either bring Nicki back from the dead or improve his ability to help people that would do the trick.

How about GIVE IT TO ROBIN WOOD, Nikki's son, since it's one of the things that belonged to her. 🙄
That would be a token of amends, something symbolic but meaningful.

So style for one. Warmth for two, I'm sure vampires can get chilly. Protection from the sun for three, sometimes a vampire is going to get caught out and it's a good size to cover himself. Seems to be a reasonable thickness so it might offer some protection from attacks from behind for four. Black is good for going unnoticed at night for five.

So basically no good reason. I mean 'I'm cold.' Serious? Do we ever see vampires get cold in California?
Protection from the sun? I seem to remember Spike using a blanket most of the time- that seemed to work just fine.
Leather coats protect against what? Swords? Stakes? Gunfire? Not really that effective.
And it's black so its 'camouflage' for when he works at night? Jeez, talk about reaching...pick another black article of clothing that doesn't belong to somebody you didn't snap the neck of. Urgh. 🙁

Let's be honest he just likes thinking about that night in New York- that's what the evidence points to because that's how his character acts. Morally bankrupt.

Nice try though. 😉

 

[EVIL UU]

Oh yeah there's definitely some room for improvement here. It seems as you say to be an issue of time and space in the comics. I feel Giles is being sidelined from the group in a similar way after his big return. I haven't seen the upcoming covers but that sounds really promising. We could do with the bond between scoobies being strengthened again, it's not always been easy to see in the comics.

I agree that Giles has maybe been sidelined in the story department but I think that it's clear that he still very much belongs with these people - he's not an outsider. He often hangs out with Xander and Dawn and had some really cool scenes with Buffy and Willow especially ( by the way, is it just me or is Willow being kinda, I don't know if it's the right word but, mom-like towards Giles? She really was there for him after Jenny was murdered so it's not exactly new but still - I really like it, I think it's great! ) I don't expect Spike to go like "Hey Red! How 'bout them Niners?" and I know, Willow is a woman and she's biteable too but come on, she's gay! She can interact with Spike without any creeping subtext or whatnot, I mean, these two have known each other for like ten years, there has to be something they can talk about or do together, Spike knows Latin, right? Fyarl too. And Giles! They are both old and British, can't they do whatever it is that the Brits do together, I don't know...drink tea, listen to Grime and talk about the weather or something? If Spike's a Scoobie then he needs to act like one.

@thetopher

Man, it's just a jacket. Also, "What makes you think I don't have doubles?" ( S9.06 ) Huh?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Man, it's just a jacket.

But that's sort of an understatement. It's not just a jacket. If it was just a jacket Spike would not have had to don it to remember how to be 'the big bad'. It was his identity. It was far from just a jacket. It's iconic Spike, just as Mr. Pointy is iconic Buffy.

 

[EVIL UU]

But that's sort of an understatement. It's not just a jacket. If it was just a jacket Spike would not have had to don it to remember how to be 'the big bad'. It was his identity. It was far from just a jacket. It's iconic Spike, just as Mr. Pointy is iconic Buffy.

That's all true but let's not go too crazy here. Sure, it's not the most tasteful thing to wear, I agree with that, but as far as war trophies go, it's not that bad either, I mean, it's not like Spike parades with Nikki's skull or something. Yes, Spike is proud of killing the slayer but to be honest, I don't think that it's fair to expect Spike to feel sorry for it either. I mean, they were mortal enemies, right? Kill or be killed situation, should Spike feel sorry for not being dust too? Again, that's self-hatred.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

That's all true but let's not go too crazy here.

Not go crazy how? I didnt say anything that was going crazy at all. I just said it was core to his identity. I never mentioned anything else.

 

[jom]

Does souled spike feel sorry for all the evil he caused? maybe in privately but he's not telling us unless of course you disarmed him.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Does souled spike feel sorry for all the evil he caused?

Souled Spike didnt cause any evil, that was regular Spike. But the fact that Souled Spike still trades on the rep that Regular Spike made would lead one to believe that he does not feel sorry; if you define sorry as showing sympathy and pity.

maybe there was a reason joyce and spike got along so well afterall! kindred spirits.

 

[Silverspike]

Souled Spike didnt cause any evil, that was regular Spike. But the fact that Souled Spike still trades on the rep that Regular Spike made would lead one to believe that he does not feel sorry; if you define sorry as showing sympathy and pity.

maybe there was a reason joyce and spike got along so well afterall! kindred spirits.

I know this was quoted before, but hey, Once more with feeling eh. 😀

From 'Damage'

SPIKE
Come to tap-dance on the patient, have we, doc? I'd give you the finger, but apparently I won't have the motor skills till the drugs wear off.

ANGEL
(walks in)
A lot of pain?

SPIKE
More than I'd like. But not as much as you would. Just what I deserve.

ANGEL
(sighs)
I didn't say that.

SPIKE
No. I did. The lass thought I killed her family. And I'm supposed to what, complain 'cause hers wasn't one of the hundreds of families I did kill? I'm not sayin' you're right... 'cause, uh... I'm physically incapable of saying that. But, uh... for a demon... I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims.

ANGEL
I couldn't take my eyes off them. I was only in it for the evil. It was everything to me. It was art. The destruction of a human being. I would've considered Dana a masterpiece.

SPIKE
What happens to her?

ANGEL
I don't know. Um, Andrew and the slayers took her. Didn't trust us to help her.

SPIKE
Andrew double-crossed us? That's a good move.
(chuckles)
Hope for the little ponce yet. Though the tingling in my forearms tells me she's too far gone to help. She's...one of us now. She's a monster.

ANGEL
She's an innocent victim.

SPIKE
So were we... once upon a time.

ANGEL
Once upon a time.

So imo from Damage onwards he did sympathize with his victims.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

So imo from Damage onwards he did sympathize with his victims.

In your opinion yes. But no where I did get sympathy or pity from that dialog you posted. I am not saying he SHOULD have it, mind you.. just saying he never showed it.

 

[Silverspike]

Oh, shame, because I thought so. 🙂

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Oh, shame, because I thought so. 🙂

No worries. Sometimes it's easier to post dialog than to really comprehend the dialog.

 

[Silverspike]

Oh I comprehend it fine, I just saw it in a diffrenet light thats all.

 

[The Bronze]

How about GIVE IT TO ROBIN WOOD, Nikki's son, since it's one of the things that belonged to her. 🙄
That would be a token of amends, something symbolic but meaningful.

So my observations that the coat could be useful for warmth, protection and camouflage are reaching.

Yet this suggestion of yours is very grounded?

A soul that wasn't present when Nicki was killed takes time away from writing the rules of magic to track down her son. He then hands over a coat never worn by Nicki to a man who probably wasn't mourning the loss of a coat in the first place.

This giant act of symbolism would be more meaningful and redeeming than say fighting alongside Nikki's son to save the world and burning up while he escaped with his life?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Oh I comprehend it fine, I just saw it in a diffrenet light thats all.

Oh sorry.. I thought when you said thought it being past tense you changed your mind, ergo my response. I didnt get that it was meant to say you think so. My bad.

 

[Silverspike]

Well I believe what I wrote, and as for the rest thats more then okay. 🙂

 

[thetopher]

So my observations that the coat could be useful for warmth, protection and camouflage are reaching.

Yes, because all that could be done by any other article of clothing that could be described as a coat. What a concept.

A soul that wasn't present when Nicki was killed takes time away from writing the rules of magic to track down her son.

Or maybe he should've done it in S9 when Buffy and Robin were actually talking. I could've been a 'sorry I was such a tool and mocked you and your Mum, this here belongs to her. In fairness maybe if you'd should've asked nicely...' etc, etc.
Something like that?
Btw- one big 'save the world' gesture doesn't mean that your automatically redeemed from all hurt you've caused, otherwise Angel would've hung up his coat long ago and Faith would be basking in her Giles wealth.

 

[Kana]

That's all true but let's not go too crazy here. Sure, it's not the most tasteful thing to wear, I agree with that, but as far as war trophies go, it's not that bad either, I mean, it's not like Spike parades with Nikki's skull or something. Yes, Spike is proud of killing the slayer but to be honest, I don't think that it's fair to expect Spike to feel sorry for it either. I mean, they were mortal enemies, right? Kill or be killed situation, should Spike feel sorry for not being dust too? Again, that's self-hatred.

I don't think Spike killed Nikki or Xin Rong out of self defense. He hunted Slayers for sport in the same way Angelus murdered for art. This is one of the reasons Wood was pissed at Spike. If some killed my mother for sport, and wore the jacket as a trophy unrepentantly, I'd be pissed. SoulledSpike was an asshat in terms of what he said to Wood.

One could paraphrase what he said like this: "I killed you mother for sport and I'm going to continue to wear her jackets for spoils. I don't give a shit about that and by the way, if your mother really loved you she'd would have quit".