Meta - Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards

[bespangeled]

Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards
I’ve been thinking a lot about perspectives I often see concerning Spike and Angel, and how responsible they are for their actions while soulless.

I usually see one of these two reasons listed as why people evaluate their actions and levels of responsibility differently:

#1: Spike is special. This is why he’s the “same” with and without a soul. He’s different than every other vampire. This is why he can love and why he should be held responsible for his actions.

#2: Angel is not Angelus. They are two totally super different people. It’s okay for Buffy to be with Angel post-Season 2 because he never really did anything wrong. It’s not Angel who didn’t love Buffy, Angelus didn’t. She should not be with Spike after Season 6 because heis responsible for any and all evil actions he committed prior to gaining his soul. Angel and Angelus are not the same person, Soulful-Spike and Soulless-Spike are.

Now, I disagree with both of these sentiments, which seem to all go to a larger argument that is approached in one of the two ways. That being:

Spike should be held responsible for his soulless actions, Angel should not.

This doesn’t work for me and I don’t believe it works toward a coherent mythology in the Buffyverse.

First off, I would like to address the first part of that argument: that Spike is special. I don’t think he is. At least, not in the way that I described above. The first place to look to disprove this is Harmony Kendall


http://demandingbillydolls.tumblr.com/post/110041355030/spike-and-angel-us-i-dont-judge-them-by

Just a taste of an interesting meta - I'd be interested in other opinions.

 

[jom]

Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards
I’ve been thinking a lot about perspectives I often see concerning Spike and Angel, and how responsible they are for their actions while soulless.

I usually see one of these two reasons listed as why people evaluate their actions and levels of responsibility differently:

#1: Spike is special. This is why he’s the “same” with and without a soul. He’s different than every other vampire. This is why he can love and why he should be held responsible for his actions.

#2: Angel is not Angelus. They are two totally super different people. It’s okay for Buffy to be with Angel post-Season 2 because he never really did anything wrong. It’s not Angel who didn’t love Buffy, Angelus didn’t. She should not be with Spike after Season 6 because heis responsible for any and all evil actions he committed prior to gaining his soul. Angel and Angelus are not the same person, Soulful-Spike and Soulless-Spike are.

Now, I disagree with both of these sentiments, which seem to all go to a larger argument that is approached in one of the two ways. That being:

Spike should be held responsible for his soulless actions, Angel should not.

This doesn’t work for me and I don’t believe it works toward a coherent mythology in the Buffyverse.

First off, I would like to address the first part of that argument: that Spike is special. I don’t think he is. At least, not in the way that I described above. The first place to look to disprove this is Harmony Kendall


http://demandingbillydolls.tumblr.com/post/110041355030/spike-and-angel-us-i-dont-judge-them-by

Just a taste of an interesting meta - I'd be interested in other opinions.

Well bespangeled let me point out a few things. First of all using Harmony in this is not a good thing. Sure she wanted to connect in harm's way, she loves connections, just like when she was human(popularity connections). The thing with harmony is that she's an user and a Betrayer of the highest caliber. Just like any living creature, she doesnt like to be alone or be the outcast everywhere she goes(which she made weaker minded and less popular kids feel like in every opportunity she got). She does what's most convenient for her, she will betray you if she finds it convenient to her, those are her top human feelings.

You dont judge Angel and Spike by different standards, ok that sounds good, but lets try to analyze some of the story that you mentioned. Spike went looking for a soul, did he?, to my understanding he went looking for his old evil self, and got a soul as an irony joke. Spike might had some love for buffy, but im sorry, after the attempted rape, he didnt showed atonement, he showed more determination to get rid of the loving feeling. You try to point out how Spike fell in love without a soul, ok that sounds good, but you cannot use that to compare it with angel. Angel as a human love to sleep with many girls, same as a vampire, Spike as a human believe in falling in love with one woman and did, same as a vampire.

The angelus/Angel thing you got to blame the angel writers for that, they were the ones who went out of their way to create 2 different personas, and in reality they were 2 different personalities. The difference between souless Spike and souled Spike is that one likes to do evil things and the other doesnt but they have the same personality, angel and angelus not so much

 

[white avenger]

#1: Spike is special. This is why he’s the “same” with and without a soul. He’s different than every other vampire. This is why he can love and why he should be held responsible for his actions.

#2: Angel is not Angelus. They are two totally super different people. It’s okay for Buffy to be with Angel post-Season 2 because he never really did anything wrong. It’s not Angel who didn’t love Buffy, Angelus didn’t. She should not be with Spike after Season 6 because heis responsible for any and all evil actions he committed prior to gaining his soul. Angel and Angelus are not the same person, Soulful-Spike and Soulless-Spike are.


Spike should be held responsible for his soulless actions, Angel should not.

Here's another double standard for your list.

#3 I don't know of a single Spike supporter who doesn't acknowledge that Buffy was in love with Angel, but I have yet to find a single Angel supported who would ever even consider the idea that Buffy could be in love with Spike.

 

[jom]

Here's another double standard for your list.

#3 I don't know of a single Spike supporter who doesn't acknowledge that Buffy was in love with Angel, but I have yet to find a single Angel supported who would ever even consider the idea that Buffy could be in love with Spike.

im an angel supporter. Yes buffy could had been in love with Spike. i know she has feelings for him. But let me ask you something, was this being in love with spike in season 6, 7 or both?

 

[Silverspike]

"Spike went looking for a soul, did he?, to my understanding he went looking for his old evil self, and got a soul as an irony joke."

Good god no. You can't be more wrong as Whedon and other writers have said time and time again Spike always went in search of getting his soul back.

Yes the whole idea was meant to mislead so the reveal at the end of season 6 would be a surprise, but the intention was always there.

 

[bespangeled]

Well bespangeled let me point out a few things. First of all using Harmony in this is not a good thing. Sure she wanted to connect in harm's way, she loves connections, just like when she was human(popularity connections). The thing with harmony is that she's an user and a Betrayer of the highest caliber. Just like any living creature, she doesnt like to be alone or be the outcast everywhere she goes(which she made weaker minded and less popular kids feel like in every opportunity she got). She does what's most convenient for her, she will betray you if she finds it convenient to her, those are her top human feelings.

You dont judge Angel and Spike by different standards, ok that sounds good, but lets try to analyze some of the story that you mentioned. Spike went looking for a soul, did he?, to my understanding he went looking for his old evil self, and got a soul as an irony joke. Spike might had some love for buffy, but im sorry, after the attempted rape, he didnt showed atonement, he showed more determination to get rid of the loving feeling. You try to point out how Spike fell in love without a soul, ok that sounds good, but you cannot use that to compare it with angel. Angel as a human love to sleep with many girls, same as a vampire, Spike as a human believe in falling in love with one woman and did, same as a vampire.

The angelus/Angel thing you got to blame the angel writers for that, they were the ones who went out of their way to create 2 different personas, and in reality they were 2 different personalities. The difference between souless Spike and souled Spike is that one likes to do evil things and the other doesnt but they have the same personality, angel and angelus not so much

First off - I didn't write this. I just stumbled across it and it raised some interesting questions. Sorry - should have made that clear!

I think that point of Harmony is just that she's like Spike - not a crazed bloodthirsty animal. Yes, she does betray everyone at the end, but remember - no soul. His point, as I get it was that if Harmony was like that then Spike was not all that unusual. Maybe Angelus was an outlier.

According to Joss Spike went for his soul - and according to everything he said, Spike went for his soul. Besides - he had already made the choice of becoming a real vampire when Dru came for him. All he would need is for her to snap necks and he'd be back on track.

Yes, because Angel and Angelus behave so differently for some reason that excuses Angel from taking responsibility for everything he did., and more important it prevents others from holding him responsible. Yes, Xander was pissy but that's about it. 

im an angel supporter. Yes buffy could had been in love with Spike. i know she has feelings for him. But let me ask you something, was this being in love with spike in season 6, 7 or both?

Sorry - I didn't write it....no idea what he meant. However, I do think Spike loved Buffy in season 6 - and that demon live is incredibly toxic for humans. He did what he would do with Dru - who was probably the only woman he ever had any sort of relationship with.

 

[jom]

First off - I didn't write this. I just stumbled across it and it raised some interesting questions. Sorry - should have made that clear!

I think that point of Harmony is just that she's like Spike - not a crazed bloodthirsty animal. Yes, she does betray everyone at the end, but remember - no soul. His point, as I get it was that if Harmony was like that then Spike was not all that unusual. Maybe Angelus was an outlier.

According to Joss Spike went for his soul - and according to everything he said, Spike went for his soul. Besides - he had already made the choice of becoming a real vampire when Dru came for him. All he would need is for her to snap necks and he'd be back on track.

Yes, because Angel and Angelus behave so differently for some reason that excuses Angel from taking responsibility for everything he did., and more important it prevents others from holding him responsible. Yes, Xander was pissy but that's about it.

Oh im sorry, i thought you were the author. Joss says that spike went looking for his soul?, then that's terrible writing because he didnt portray that on the show.

As i said, it is the writers fault for going out of their way to make it seem like angel and angelus are 2 different people. It wouldnt had matter to me if angelus acted like angel, just evil, but the fact of the matter is that he didnt, i dont know why. The only time i saw what could had been a good angelus acting like an evil angel was when angel let those lawyers died, but he wasnt angelus, he was angel.

 

[Silverspike]

"I really hate that entire idea. It's just like deciding Buffy is a crazy girl in an insane asylum."

In what way?

 

[jom]

Good god no. You can't be more wrong as Whedon and other writers have said time and time again Spike always went in search of getting his soul back.

Yes the whole idea was meant to mislead so the reveal at the end of season 6 would be a surprise, but the intention was always there.

when the showrunner has to go out of his way to explain it, you know that it was bad writing. He made it very clear that he wanted the evil back.

 

[Silverspike]

No, not imo, you can take what Spike says in two ways. Unfortunately Whedon didn't trust JM with what was going on, and so the emphasis s is played all wrong in his performance.

 

[bespangeled]

"I really hate that entire idea. It's just like deciding Buffy is a crazy girl in an insane asylum."

In what way?

In the way that Joss said...uh, no! That was another misconception that had to be shot down, but it still pops up. 

when the showrunner has to go out of his way to explain it, you know that it was bad writing. He made it very clear that he wanted the evil back.

And that's the sad part - because they wanted to do a red herring, and because they had not told JM what the ultimate prize was...well, it ended up confusing. It's even more annoying to watch it now knowing what crap it is.

However - head canon Watsonian here - I'm gonna say that Spike is well aware that he is going off to get something he has hated Angelus for - he is venting his frustrations about being love's bitch - and he is psyching himself up. Weak, I know... 

Oh im sorry, i thought you were the author. Joss says that spike went looking for his soul?, then that's terrible writing because he didnt portray that on the show.

As i said, it is the writers fault for going out of their way to make it seem like angel and angelus are 2 different people. It wouldnt had matter to me if angelus acted like angel, just evil, but the fact of the matter is that he didnt, i dont know why. The only time i saw what could had been a good angelus acting like an evil angel was when angel let those lawyers died, but he wasnt angelus, he was angel.

I assumed it was the way they got their souls. Angel's demon was suddenly leashed, caged, and furious. You can see it all in Orpheus. Spike's soul was a gift that his demon wanted so there was no reason to separate the two.

 

[Silverspike]

Ah right. 🙂

Here's just more quotes to back up my point, If you see what I mean. 🙂

"Spike's quest was, and ALWAYS WAS, to get his soul restored for Buffy, despite any misleading leaks we may have put out that you fell for." - David Fury on the Bronze Beta, 11/19/02

"Spike looked into his soul at that moment [the attempted rape], and saw the demon in him, and that's what made him want to go get a soul .... We did a big ole mislead on you all, where we wanted you to think he gonna go get the chip out. We knew, the whole time, from the very beginning he was gonna go get a soul. And when he says I want Buffy to have what she deserves, he means a lover with a soul." - Jane Espenson, Buffy writer
Radio interview on the Succubus Club, 5/22/02

Moderator: "At the end of the finale, I thought Spike wanted to get the chip out, not get his soul back?"
Joss Whedon: "Noooo.... but you were meant to think that. I personally devised something called a plot twist."
At the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences panel "Behind the Scenes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer," 6/18/02

 

[jom]

I assumed it was the way they got their souls. Angel's demon was suddenly leashed, caged, and furious. You can see it all in Orpheus. Spike's soul was a gift that his demon wanted so there was no reason to separate the two.

That backs up the 2 personas theory. But you make a point, Angel soul was a punishment, Spike's was not, There could be something to it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

He did what he would do with Dru - who was probably the only woman he ever had any sort of relationship with.

I so should not be entering this thread but this touched on something I have long felt about the whole situation.

Spike is a dog. As William, he never really knew about or experienced love. The only love Spike knew was with Dru. So in essence Dru conditioned him to what and how to expect love to be. The same way you condition a dog. Love was violent, brutal and harsh. They tortured one another for amusement. When Dru was going to leave Spike, his answer was go to her, torture her until she loves him again. Dru loved the torture.

Then Buffy comes along, beats Spike up and off.. they bring a house down with their violent "love." So to Spike it seemed normal. Buffy loved the sex and the violence. So Spike, being the faithful and obedient dog he was simply only doing what he had been conditioned to do with Buffy.

 

[jom]

Ah right. 🙂

Here's just more quotes to back up my point, If you see what I mean. 🙂

"Spike's quest was, and ALWAYS WAS, to get his soul restored for Buffy, despite any misleading leaks we may have put out that you fell for." - David Fury on the Bronze Beta, 11/19/02

"Spike looked into his soul at that moment [the attempted rape], and saw the demon in him, and that's what made him want to go get a soul .... We did a big ole mislead on you all, where we wanted you to think he gonna go get the chip out. We knew, the whole time, from the very beginning he was gonna go get a soul. And when he says I want Buffy to have what she deserves, he means a lover with a soul." - Jane Espenson, Buffy writer
Radio interview on the Succubus Club, 5/22/02

Moderator: "At the end of the finale, I thought Spike wanted to get the chip out, not get his soul back?"
Joss Whedon: "Noooo.... but you were meant to think that. I personally devised something called a plot twist."
At the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences panel "Behind the Scenes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer," 6/18/02

Everything you point out here sounds good, but it also shows bad writing. They wanted a plot twist, good, but it damaged Spike's redemption story. It almost feel like a retcon on their part saying that spike had planned it all along. The viewers were fooled, the problem is, spike felt kind of fooled.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

It almost feel like a retcon on their part saying that spike had planned it all along.

Doesn't it though.

 

[EVIL UU]

Guys, it doesn't really matter. Chip out, soul in - it's not important. It's the intention that matters. Spike embarks on his journey with the belief that changing himself is all that needs to be done to be with Buffy again.

Buffy breaks up with Spike in "Older and Far Away". She makes it clear to him that she doesn't want to be with him, that she doesn't love him and that, in fact, she could never love him. I don't have to paste the quotes, right? Spike, like the creeps from "Beauty & the Beasts", "I Robot, You Jane" and "Dead Things" ignores it. He will win Buffy's heart regardless of her opinion on that matter. It's...well, I don't want to throw any buzzwords around here, feel free to fill in the blanks.

One of the things I like about Spike in the comics - he actually recognizes this crap for what it is. 
Yeah - stalker's alright. That's the word ensouled Spike ( funny thing is, I always related a bit to those sullen stalker types who whine about bein' in the "friend zone" ) uses to describe his soulless self in the comics. Also, there's the whole entitlement thing.

 

[jom]

Yeah - stalker's alright. That's the word ensouled Spike ( funny thing is, I always related a bit to those sullen stalker types who whine about bein' in the "friend zone" ) uses to describe his soulless self in the comics. Also, there's the whole entitlement thing.

so what you are trying to say here is that Spike is permanently stuck in that bathroom mentality, going after buffy before she stops him, is that what you are saying here?

 

[thetopher]

Well I could point out that Buffy herself holds them to different standards.
I mean in a single scene in Becoming she recognises when Angelus turns into Angel within moments- she just looks into his eyes and...knows the difference.
And then we have Buffy in S10 still deeply confused over unsoulled Spike and what he did and is trying to separate the good from the bad by pretty much whitewashing over the bad...

I could point out that the writers don't hold the two of them to the same standards on Buffy. Look at how Angel is treated in Season 3 and how Spike is treated in S7 and you'll see what I mean.

But generally yeah, they should be held to the same standard. I don't like people who hold Angel accoutable for what was clearly Angelus. And Spike post soul should not be held responsible/accountable for the bad...or the good, that he did when he was just a demon. That seems fair to me.

A couple of other points about this piece:

1) I don't particularly care for how this article pretty much accuses Angel of being a pedophile stalker, lusting after a fifteen year old, lollypop sucking Buffy from his creepy, shadowy car...mainly because I think its disingenuous in the extreme.
It accuses Angel of of stalking Buffy from Hemery to Sunnydale (there's no evidence of this. In fact its implied in 'The Wish' that Angel went to Sunnydale and waited for Buffy to arrive. Maybe he trained some with Whistler to get in shape but I don't see stalking, I see helping.)

Then when she gets to Sunnydale he does indeed follow her, but to warn her about the Harvest. Through S1 Angel meets Buffy twice in a public place (the Bronze) specifically to warn her about stuff. He doesn't hit on her or be creepy, or try anything romantic. It's only in the 'Angel' episode that they kiss, she discovers his secret and after they kiss again at the end he pretty much stays away from her until 'Prophecy Girl'. I don't consider that stalking.

In s2 he's in her room without her permission exactly twice; in 'When She was Bad' when she'd been away all summer he comes in- again to warn her that the Anointed One is gathering forces, then he leaves. And he's in her room in 'WML' part1 when she comes back from patrol. Angel makes a lame excuse about being worried, but he probably just wanted to see her. Two instances don't make a stalker pattern.
In 'SAR' he does follow her to the graveyard, but that's out of pretty much pure jealousy towards Xander.

Also the mood between the two them in S1 and the first half of S2 (up until 'Bad Eggs') is romantic, not sexual, there is a difference. In 'Surprise' when they both come very close to losing each other (Angel going away, Buffy being incinerated by the Judge) that the barriers come down and they both give in to temptation. Angel says that he loves her, that he shouldn't but, blah, blah. Buffy kisses him and initiates their encounter.

The article also ignores (or is ignorant of) the fact that soulled Spike pretty much acts like a creepy stalker for a lot of S9, Buffy even comments on it at one point.

2) I find the comparison of Harmony and Spike very apt, and not exactly in the way the author obviously indended.
See, Harmony is one of the most shallow characters in the Buffy-verse, she's a vapid, bubble-headed blonde who's pretty much a utilitarian character who doesn't change that much pre and post soul. She's still at heart a sheep who desperately wants to be accepted by her 'peers'.
She's there to forfill certain things for other characters (Spike, Cordelia, Angel, etc) but her own arc doesn't really make that much sense if compared to other vampires. She should've been staked long ago logically speaking.

Now, substitute 'forfil things for certain other characters' for 'Spuffy' and you have Spike S7. Spike goes from being a complex, interesting character whose' developing some rudimentary morality/humanity in S5. Then in S6 he goes off on a tangent with the whole Spuffy thing, and then he goes and gets his soul.

In S7 Sike becomes...shallow. Deeply, deeply shallow. A character who ignores his intrinsic humanity in favour of being what 'Buffy needs' or whatever. Later on Angel he blames Angel for the monster he became. Later in the comics he blames his mother for making him 'weak'. He's alway acts like the perenial victim so he doesn't have to take responsibility for anything.

I think that's the irony. Angelus is pretty much a shallow character, not much going on there besides 'EVIL', but Angel is a really deep, interesting, morally complex character. There's a reason that he's the star of his own show.
On the flip-side soulless Spike is also fascinating, the journey he starts on is an interesting one, he's one of the better characters on the show in S4 and 5.
Soulled Spike is, in the end, a bunch of caracatures that he's unwilling/unable to shake off; fake cockney accent, leather coat, bleached hair, caustic, swaggering, not much else going on.

 

[white avenger]

Well I could point out that Buffy herself holds them to different standards.
I mean in a single scene in Becoming she recognises when Angelus turns into Angel within moments- she just looks into his eyes and...knows the difference.

I could point out that the writers don't hold the two of them to the same standards on Buffy. Look at how Angel is treated in Season 3 and how Spike is treated in S7 and you'll see what I mean.

But generally yeah, they should be held to the same standard. I don't like people who hold Angel accoutable for what was clearly Angelus. And Spike post soul should not be held responsible/accountable for the bad...or the good, that he did when he was just a demon. That seems fair to me.

Spike goes from being a complex, interesting character whose' developing some rudimentary morality/humanity in S5. Then in S6 he goes off on a tangent with the whole Spuffy thing, and then he goes and gets his soul.

Angelus is pretty much a shallow character, not much going on there besides 'EVIL', but Angel is a really deep, interesting, morally complex character. There's a reason that he's the star of his own show.

On the flip-side soulless Spike is also fascinating, the journey he starts on is an interesting one, he's one of the better characters on the show in S4 and 5.

Soulled Spike is, in the end, a bunch of caracatures that he's unwilling/unable to shake off; fake cockney accent, leather coat, bleached hair, caustic, swaggering, not much else going on.

Buffy recognizes Angel's return at the end of "Becoming Pt 2" immediately, but I would suggest that his eyes suddenly glowing bright yellow and him dropping to his knees in shock and confusion were pretty good hints that something big had just happened, and the confused, whispered, "Buffy?" as though he had just arrived on the sceme pretty much sealed it. If she had been in the cave when the demon returned Spike's soul, she might have recognized the difference there as well. When Buffy actually does first see cleaned up, more or less sane Spike, as opposed to the raving rat eater in the high school basement, he is consciously trying to conceal the fact that he has a soul, as witnessed by his stopping Anya from telling anyone. I think that we can excuse Buffy's not noticing the change there, the same as we excuse her not realizing right away that the man who she had just slept with the night before in Season 2 wasn't the same one she was talking to and telling her that he "thought she was a pro" sexually.

As for comparing the characters of the two vampires, pre and post soul, can we really do that with any degree of accuracy? Character isn't something that just suddenly reveals itself, fully developed, within someone's makeup, it is the result of experiences, both good and bad, decisions made or avoided, opportunities either missed or realized, and, most importantly, the effects of those experiences, decisions, and opportunities as they manifest themselves over time. We know very little about Angel the first few years after he acquired his soul, and, for all we know, might have been just as possessed with caricatures as Spike in Seasons 7 through 10 or later. Given the better part of a century to develop, Spike might become just as deeply interesting and morally complex as Angel is today, but comparing Angel after decades of development to Spike after only a few years is comparing apples to oranges.