Meta - Spike and Angel(us): I don’t judge them by different standards

[Skanky Vamp]

Spike might become just as deeply interesting and morally complex as Angel is today

That's highly unlikely. For the simple fact that the soul was a means to create conflict within Angel and as a means to resolve conflict within Spike.

 

[thetopher]

Buffy recognizes Angel's return at the end of "Becoming Pt 2" immediately, but I would suggest that his eyes suddenly glowing bright yellow and him dropping to his knees in shock and confusion were pretty good hints that something big had just happened, and the confused, whispered, "Buffy?" as though he had just arrived on the sceme pretty much sealed it.

Actually Angelus dropped to his knees after he'd been slashed to ribbons with a sword- he'd just lost the fight and Buffy was about to administer the killing blow.
And we don't see Buffy see the flash of light- and even if she did why would she automatically think spell? Nobody had mentioned the spell to her at this point- more likely the act was a ruse by Angelus.
But no, she recognises him. The point still stands that, to Buffy, Angel and Angelus are like night and day. She knew that by 'Amends' in S3- she knows the monster and she knows the man.
In contrast soulled and unsoulled Spike are not so contrasting and continue to be a jumbled mess to her.

When Buffy actually does first see cleaned up, more or less sane Spike, as opposed to the raving rat eater in the high school basement, he is consciously trying to conceal the fact that he has a soul, as witnessed by his stopping Anya from telling anyone.

Yeah, I never got the reasoning as to why he hid this at all. Spike's come back to Sunnydale and at this point he's trying to get Buffy to trust him, so why not mention that he's got himself a soul.
He doesn't have to crow about it, just say something like 'After that terrible thing I did I went and managed to get myself soulled. So I've changed, Anya will confirm it. Doesn't make me better or whatever, just means that I can control myself- won't ever do what I did.'
But nope, he attacks Anya before she can say anything and then taunts Buffy- what a prince, huh? 🙄

I think that we can excuse Buffy's not noticing the change there, the same as we excuse her not realizing right away that the man who she had just slept with the night before in Season 2 wasn't the same one she was talking to and telling her that he "thought she was a pro" sexually.

This is entirely irrelevant since at this point in the show Buffy didn't even know about the curse, so how is she supposed to realise that it wasn't Angel? This is the first time she encounters Angelus, it's only after all this horror and heartache that she can distinguish one from the other.

As for comparing the characters of the two vampires, pre and post soul, can we really do that with any degree of accuracy? Character isn't something that just suddenly reveals itself, fully developed, within someone's makeup, it is the result of experiences, both good and bad, decisions made or avoided, opportunities either missed or realized, and, most importantly, the effects of those experiences, decisions, and opportunities as they manifest themselves over time.

I don't understand how having a soul put in you will somehow effect you more later on than it does immediately? Having the deaths of thousands on your conscience should have instant, immediate and permentant effect on somebody's morality.

Look at it this way- you're driving your car and see a horrific car accident, an entire family dead in the cordoned off street, you feel bad right? That's empathy, you feel sorry about the tragedy even though you were in no way involved.

So now imagine that you were the passenger in another car that caused the accident. You saw the driver run the family off the road before you could even stop them- that's bad, you're involved in it now. You could've stopped it and you didn't.

Now imagine that you caused the accident, you blacked out but have the memory of deliberatly running that family to their deaths. That's horrible and yet you can see yourself doing it in your minds eye.
Times that feeling by a thousand and explain to me how any empathic person doesn't undergo some permentanty change in outlook. Tell me how that doesn't weigh on them in some way, change their behaviour, drive them to drink, something.
We get that with pretty much any character who does bad stuff on the show- except Spike (and Anya- but I hold Anya to the same standards as well. She puts both Angel and Spike to shame...).

Given the better part of a century to develop, Spike might become just as deeply interesting and morally complex as Angel is today, but comparing Angel after decades of development to Spike after only a few years is comparing apples to oranges.

I highly doubt it. We a few years into the comics now and Spike is more mellow than he's ever been. There's no conflict, no angst and certainly no guilt. It's still all about Buffy.
And also what @Mr. Pole said- Spike's soul seems to have solved his character conflict. I find this backwards-ass writing amazing but there we go.

 

[white avenger]

Actually Angelus dropped to his knees after he'd been slashed to ribbons with a sword- he'd just lost the fight and Buffy was about to administer the killing blow.
And we don't see Buffy see the flash of light- and even if she did why would she automatically think spell? Nobody had mentioned the spell to her at this point- more likely the act was a ruse by Angelus.
But no, she recognises him. The point still stands that, to Buffy, Angel and Angelus are like night and day. She knew that by 'Amends' in S3- she knows the monster and she knows the man.
In contrast soulled and unsoulled Spike are not so contrasting and continue to be a jumbled mess to her.



Yeah, I never got the reasoning as to why he hid this at all. Spike's come back to Sunnydale and at this point he's trying to get Buffy to trust him, so why not mention that he's got himself a soul.
He doesn't have to crow about it, just say something like 'After that terrible thing I did I went and managed to get myself soulled. So I've changed, Anya will confirm it. Doesn't make me better or whatever, just means that I can control myself- won't ever do what I did.'
But nope, he attacks Anya before she can say anything and then taunts Buffy- what a prince, huh? 🙄



This is entirely irrelevant since at this point in the show Buffy didn't even know about the curse, so how is she supposed to realise that it wasn't Angel? This is the first time she encounters Angelus, it's only after all this horror and heartache that she can distinguish one from the other.



I don't understand how having a soul put in you will somehow effect you more later on than it does immediately? Having the deaths of thousands on your conscience should have instant, immediate and permentant effect on somebody's morality.

Look at it this way- you're driving your car and see a horrific car accident, an entire family dead in the cordoned off street, you feel bad right? That's empathy, you feel sorry about the tragedy even though you were in no way involved.

So now imagine that you were the passenger in another car that caused the accident. You saw the driver run the family off the road before you could even stop them- that's bad, you're involved in it now. You could've stopped it and you didn't.

Now imagine that you caused the accident, you blacked out but have the memory of deliberatly running that family to their deaths. That's horrible and yet you can see yourself doing it in your minds eye.
Times that feeling by a thousand and explain to me how any empathic person doesn't undergo some permentanty change in outlook. Tell me how that doesn't weigh on them in some way, change their behaviour, drive them to drink, something.
We get that with pretty much any character who does bad stuff on the show- except Spike (and Anya- but I hold Anya to the same standards as well. She puts both Angel and Spike to shame...).

I just re-watched the fight sequence. There is no "slashed to ribbons," unless that's what you call one cut on the arm each. Buffy does much more kicking than cutting, and she is staring right at Angel when his eyes light up. The only way that she could have missed it would have been if she was blind. Yes, she realizes that she is now facing Angel, and the reason for that realization is his reaction to what has just happened, whether she actually knows about Willow's spell or not.

Like you, I have no idea just why Spike originally tried to hide the fact that he had regained his soul. I thought at first that he was waiting to get Buffy alone somewhere and tell her before anyone else found out. His reaction to Anya made it seem that he was somehow afraid of letting anyone know.

By the time of Season 7, Angel would have been in possession of his soul for far longer than most men will ever live, and the accumulated experiences of those decades have formed what his personality will be. By comparison, Spike's soul is like that of a newborn (I don't agree with the idea the Angel has Liam's soul and Spike has William's by the way, because that would involve dragging a human soul out of whatever reward or punishment that it had earned while alive. I believe that both Angel and Spike had souls specifically matched to their own vampire beings)

 

[jom]

Could a Spike had shined on his own show?. The thing about Spike is that his story revolts around angel and buffy, and even drusilla. Did spike get his own story in the comics?

 

[white avenger]

Could a Spike had shined on his own show?. The thing about Spike is that his story revolts around angel and buffy, and even drusilla. Did spike get his own story in the comics?

Spike had a couple of miniseries at IDE, before he and Angel moved over to Dark Horse, and I think that his last series there was supposed to have been set up as his own long running title, but that was dropped once he changed publishers.

 

[jom]

Spike had a couple of miniseries at IDE, before he and Angel moved over to Dark Horse, and I think that his last series there was supposed to have been set up as his own long running title, but that was dropped once he changed publishers.

But how would a spike show go?, Would he get his own group? Can spike be goofy like Angel?. I remember Angel begging wesley, Cordelia and Gunn to allow him back in the group. Im just vey curious how things would go with Spike.

 

[Silverspike]

I susceptibly differently as Spike isn't Angel...thank god.

Both characters when left alone can be boring as hell If the writings bad.

 

[Taake]

Could a Spike had shined on his own show?. The thing about Spike is that his story revolts around angel and buffy, and even drusilla. Did spike get his own story in the comics?

I'm not sure but I've seen an interview with James Marsters where he states that a Spike mini-series (for TV) was on Joss' mind. Though according to Marsters Whedon didn't really have any ideas for it, asked him for one, and that idea eventually turned into a Spike comic instead. I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why a televised Spike series, mini or not, didn't happen, but clearly there was an idea of bringing him out on his own!

I mean Angel's story revolved entirely about Buffy before he got his own show, so Spike's story revolving around Buffy is not necessarily a sign that he couldn't become successful autonomus character if only given the chance to.

 

[Kana]

An interesting meta to say the least. Funnily enough, this reminds me, somewhat of a thread I created on another forum called "How Should We Judge Vampires". In that thread I attempted to discern whether or not we could judge soulless vampires morally and if we can, should we judge them by the same standard as human beings?

I approached this from the most objective angle I could find, firstly attempting to salvage some kind of meaning in having a soul. As far as I was concerned defining the soul, if such a task is possible was the best we to see exactly what faculty is missing from vampires when they are faced with a moral decision.

So if we can form a rule of the thumb here, then said rule should apply to both Angel and Spike. This is of course if such conclusion can be found. One of the things on which I must be clear is, if such notions of the soul are so nebulous that we cannot determine its nature nor its function, then we must be mindful of jumping conclusions about how we should judge vampires, soulled or soulless. This seems to be fairest way of approaching this.

One thing I will say is that, aside from the curse, there aren't any apparent metaphysical differences between Angel and Spike, which leads me to think that the differences in how they regard the past and how they behave with a soul is more psychological in its nature.

On top of that, I think how they approach the world and how they regard themselves is also down to choice and self definition. Both of them were tormented by the soul, and both of them are able to deal with it on a daily basis. I don't think either vampire can be used as the control, because we don't have more examples. I will always relate more to Angel, but that doesn't mean that I think he's automatically correct in his approach to the past.

 

[white avenger]

One thing I will say is that, aside from the curse, there aren't any apparent metaphysical differences between Angel and Spike, which leads me to think that the differences in how they regard the past and how they behave with a soul is more psychological in its nature.

On top of that, I think how they approach the world and how they regard themselves is also down to choice and self definition. Both of them were tormented by the soul, and both of them are able to deal with it on a daily basis. I don't think either vampire can be used as the control, because we don't have more examples. I will always relate more to Angel, but that doesn't mean that I think he's automatically correct in his approach to the past.

Something to remember about Angel and Spike and their souls, and I think that this goes far beyond the "one was a curse, one was an award" thing is that, when Angel received his soul, the most important person in the world to him, Darla, rejected him, screamed about how the Gypsies had "ruined" him, how he wasn't whole anymore, and. when she did finally accept him back into the group, he was never again the leader. Basically, Angel was led to believe that the soul made him some sort of weakling among vampires.

Spike, however, was told by the most important person in his world, Buffy, that what he did was not only commendable, it was admirable. That she could see the better man that he had become, and she believed in him. Rather than being rejected by her, the way that Angel was by Darla, she welcomed him into her own home, even over the protestations of her closest friends. When the First Evil began manipulating him, she stood by him, again, over the objections of her friends, even going so far as to have a falling out with her mentor/father figure over the attempt to destroy Spike. And, not only did Buffy defend in and support Spike, she also, basically, told him to get over his regrets, get back in the fight, and become the man he once was, the vampire who almost killed her the first time that they fought.

A lot has been said about how Angel is somehow more admirable because he tries in some way to atone for all that Angelus had done, and that there is something lacking in Spike's character because he doesn't also seem to feel the need for atonement. I submit that one of the major reasons for Spike being more inclined to put hos bloody past behind him and move forward is because he was told, simply, that his soul made him more, not less, of a man, at what must surely have been the most traumatic stage of his coming to grips with his new condition.

Angel's curse wasn't just about regaining his soul, and feeling all the guilt and regret associated with it, it was the rejection and belittlement, in that most formative time, of the most important person in his life at that time. Spike's reward wasn't just about the soul that he had won, it was also about the acceptance, support, encouragement, and the love of the most important person in his world.

 

[bespangeled]

I so should not be entering this thread but this touched on something I have long felt about the whole situation.

Spike is a dog. As William, he never really knew about or experienced love. The only love Spike knew was with Dru. So in essence Dru conditioned him to what and how to expect love to be. The same way you condition a dog. Love was violent, brutal and harsh. They tortured one another for amusement. When Dru was going to leave Spike, his answer was go to her, torture her until she loves him again. Dru loved the torture.

Then Buffy comes along, beats Spike up and off.. they bring a house down with their violent "love." So to Spike it seemed normal. Buffy loved the sex and the violence. So Spike, being the faithful and obedient dog he was simply only doing what he had been conditioned to do with Buffy.

Yes - he is love's bitch 😀

I agree completely with all of this. 

Guys, it doesn't really matter. Chip out, soul in - it's not important. It's the intention that matters. Spike embarks on his journey with the belief that changing himself is all that needs to be done to be with Buffy again.

Buffy breaks up with Spike in "Older and Far Away". She makes it clear to him that she doesn't want to be with him, that she doesn't love him and that, in fact, she could never love him. I don't have to paste the quotes, right? Spike, like the creeps from "Beauty & the Beasts", "I Robot, You Jane" and "Dead Things" ignores it. He will win Buffy's heart regardless of her opinion on that matter. It's...well, I don't want to throw any buzzwords around here, feel free to fill in the blanks.

Yes, before he got his soul he really believed that she would love him. He does things like that - like promising to stake Dru for Buffy. Yes - Angel staked Darla to save Buffy - that was a coherent action, and a good thing. It's like he sees the form and not the substance in a lot of ways until he got his soul.

OTH - Angel unsouled was also stalkerish and brutal - even more so than what we saw of Spike. He tore Buffy to pieces just by talking about their time in bed together. He knew every button to push.

 

[Mr Trick]

I never considered that Spike was trying to get his chip removed when getting his soul back. And I don't see how keeping people guessing, or leaving things open can be seen as bad writing. The fact that I didn't even read the angle of the chip, but other have seem to make it good writing to me.

 

[bespangeled]

Well I could point out that Buffy herself holds them to different standards.
I mean in a single scene in Becoming she recognises when Angelus turns into Angel within moments- she just looks into his eyes and...knows the difference.
And then we have Buffy in S10 still deeply confused over unsoulled Spike and what he did and is trying to separate the good from the bad by pretty much whitewashing over the bad...

So she recognizes souled Angel - of course she would - she's known him since the beginning of her time in Sunnydale. She didn't recognize when he had lost his soul - the only reason Angelus could destroy her is that she still believed he was Angel. She didn't recognize that Spike was soulled because she had never seen him souled.

I could point out that the writers don't hold the two of them to the same standards on Buffy. Look at how Angel is treated in Season 3 and how Spike is treated in S7 and you'll see what I mean.

But generally yeah, they should be held to the same standard. I don't like people who hold Angel accoutable for what was clearly Angelus. And Spike post soul should not be held responsible/accountable for the bad...or the good, that he did when he was just a demon. That seems fair to me.

Not sure on the season 3 vs season 7 so I need more to understand. But why shouldn't both get credit for all of it. Why shouldn't the good either did be counted as part of the package. Both did good and evil when souled and when not. Or is the problem that you feel it's not fair that Spike did more good than Angel did when he didn't have a soul?

You know the missing piece is that chipped Spike was different from demon Spike before the soul even came along. It makes it more difficult to compare vamps.

A couple of other points about this piece:

1) I don't particularly care for how this article pretty much accuses Angel of being a pedophile stalker, lusting after a fifteen year old, lollypop sucking Buffy from his creepy, shadowy car...mainly because I think its disingenuous in the extreme.
It accuses Angel of of stalking Buffy from Hemery to Sunnydale (there's no evidence of this. In fact its implied in 'The Wish' that Angel went to Sunnydale and waited for Buffy to arrive. Maybe he trained some with Whistler to get in shape but I don't see stalking, I see helping.)

Then when she gets to Sunnydale he does indeed follow her, but to warn her about the Harvest. Through S1 Angel meets Buffy twice in a public place (the Bronze) specifically to warn her about stuff. He doesn't hit on her or be creepy, or try anything romantic. It's only in the 'Angel' episode that they kiss, she discovers his secret and after they kiss again at the end he pretty much stays away from her until 'Prophecy Girl'. I don't consider that stalking.

In s2 he's in her room without her permission exactly twice; in 'When She was Bad' when she'd been away all summer he comes in- again to warn her that the Anointed One is gathering forces, then he leaves. And he's in her room in 'WML' part1 when she comes back from patrol. Angel makes a lame excuse about being worried, but he probably just wanted to see her. Two instances don't make a stalker pattern.
In 'SAR' he does follow her to the graveyard, but that's out of pretty much pure jealousy towards Xander.

Yeah - stalkery bothers me, but on two levels. Statutory rape - teen girl and older man (and I am going by the age 27 which is what Angel was when he was turned). I don't want to get into details but I know someone who experienced this situation and has very real damage that has lasted for decades. So this presses personal buttons. The visual of lolita!Buffy and a rather skeevy looking Angel does disturb me - as does his checking her out from a car window, and looking in Buffy's windows. Whether he left Hemery at the same time as Buffy makes no difference - they end up in the same place. That really is stalking, even though he means well. Like going in her room to warn her - you can still knock on the window, or wait for permission to enter. That's at least what most women prefer. He did need to tell her those things but didn't need to b&e to do it.

That does not change the fact that I believe Buffy and Angel were not skeevy at all as a couple and if Buffy decides she wants a vamp in her life I would expect that vamp to be Angel..

Also the mood between the two them in S1 and the first half of S2 (up until 'Bad Eggs') is romantic, not sexual, there is a difference. In 'Surprise' when they both come very close to losing each other (Angel going away, Buffy being incinerated by the Judge) that the barriers come down and they both give in to temptation. Angel says that he loves her, that he shouldn't but, blah, blah. Buffy kisses him and initiates their encounter.

The article also ignores (or is ignorant of) the fact that soulled Spike pretty much acts like a creepy stalker for a lot of S9, Buffy even comments on it at one point. [/QUOTE]

Again no comics - the author may net read them either. But, why this insistence that anything Angel did, Spike did more and worse? I'd say both stalked Buffy at different times and for different reasons. You seem to say that Angel never stalked Buffy and besides he had good reasons, which is confusing.

2) I find the comparison of Harmony and Spike very apt, and not exactly in the way the author obviously indended.
See, Harmony is one of the most shallow characters in the Buffy-verse, she's a vapid, bubble-headed blonde who's pretty much a utilitarian character who doesn't change that much pre and post soul. She's still at heart a sheep who desperately wants to be accepted by her 'peers'.
She's there to forfill certain things for other characters (Spike, Cordelia, Angel, etc) but her own arc doesn't really make that much sense if compared to other vampires. She should've been staked long ago logically speaking.

Okay - not sure why Harmony should be staked for being shallow and utilitarian - and as far as I know she never got a soul.

Now, substitute 'forfil things for certain other characters' for 'Spuffy' and you have Spike S7. Spike goes from being a complex, interesting character whose' developing some rudimentary morality/humanity in S5. Then in S6 he goes off on a tangent with the whole Spuffy thing, and then he goes and gets his soul.
In S7 Sike becomes...shallow. Deeply, deeply shallow. A character who ignores his intrinsic humanity in favour of being what 'Buffy needs' or whatever. Later on Angel he blames Angel for the monster he became. Later in the comics he blames his mother for making him 'weak'. He's alway acts like the perenial victim so he doesn't have to take responsibility for anything.

I don't really go for the 'this character is always this way' because of the whole cherry-picking-nyah-nyah circular repetitive argument probability. Obviously we disagree her and have all along. And the victim act - shared by both vamps at different times. 🙄

I think that's the irony. Angelus is pretty much a shallow character, not much going on there besides 'EVIL', but Angel is a really deep, interesting, morally complex character. There's a reason that he's the star of his own show.
On the flip-side soulless Spike is also fascinating, the journey he starts on is an interesting one, he's one of the better characters on the show in S4 and 5.
Soulled Spike is, in the end, a bunch of caricatures that he's unwilling/unable to shake off; fake cockney accent, leather coat, bleached hair, caustic, swaggering, not much else going on.

And here I thought you liked AtS season 5 Spike.😀
BTW - I love the show Angel, but I don't understand what this point you keep making is. Angel - the person in the B-verse - had reason to leave LA and start over. That's wonderful, and the show really allows you to see him grow. There was no spin off for Ripper, for Faith, for Spike, for anyone else in the 'verse. Does that make them lesser beings? Or is it - my vampire is better than your vampire, cuz, I do consider both to be mine.

 

[Kana]

Something to remember about Angel and Spike and their souls, and I think that this goes far beyond the "one was a curse, one was an award" thing is that, when Angel received his soul, the most important person in the world to him, Darla, rejected him, screamed about how the Gypsies had "ruined" him, how he wasn't whole anymore, and. when she did finally accept him back into the group, he was never again the leader. Basically, Angel was led to believe that the soul made him some sort of weakling among vampires.

I think there is some truth to that. As I've often said, it's not just about guilt but also finding one's identity. Spike's identity is definitely one that's been built through a combination of soul and his experiences as a soulless vampire. Unlike some however, I do think that a lot of soulled Spike's esteem comes from Buffy, which of course makes sense, because as soulled vampire, unlike Angel, by the time he arrived on Ats, he hadn't really made it out by himself.

A lot has been said about how Angel is somehow more admirable because he tries in some way to atone for all that Angelus had done, and that there is something lacking in Spike's character because he doesn't also seem to feel the need for atonement. I submit that one of the major reasons for Spike being more inclined to put hos bloody past behind him and move forward is because he was told, simply, that his soul made him more, not less, of a man, at what must surely have been the most traumatic stage of his coming to grips with his new condition.

Keep in mind, this is coming from an Angel fan, but I never had an issue with that. As you know, I've often questioned the metaphysics of the soul and the part in plays with vampires. I question the responsibility they hold for their soulless crimes. However it's also fair to question Spike's motivation for getting a soul. I see many fans praise him for it, but I still question what exactly the soul provides him. He claims he knew it was the right thing do, but he never states, specifically how and why.

This is the problem really. On top of that we have Spike vs Angel re: essentialism vs existentialism. Angel at first appears the essential hero: good with a soul and irredeemably evil without one. Whereas Spike, even without a soul is seen struggling with good and evil in a way Angelus never did. However even Spike's plight is more metaphoric than literal. I mean, sure he goes through trials to become a better person, but while the trials previous to his soul quest were the sought of trials that test moral behaviour, his actual soul quest was a series of physical trials to gain something tangible. The metaphor works really well. Spike is seemingly an evil vampire, but fights through a series of tests in order to become a better person. Once he has overcome these tests, he then understands he is a person of moral character.

People often take this metaphor and use it against Angel by saying, "Well Spike chose to get a soul but Angel had one forced upon him". However without truly defining the soul, we cannot really know the significance it holds when one fights for it. If the soul is a conscience, then fighting for obtain a conscience because it's the right thing to do, seems a little paradoxical. If you know what the right thing is, then why does one need a conscience. It further adds to the confusion when we realize that soullessSpike and Angelus both understand the concepts of morality intellectually. So with this in mind, what does the soul provide?

I think what you've often stated WA, is that if Angel and Angelus are separate individuals, then Spike and soullessSpike should be judge this way as well. I absolutely agree with this. If you have two soldiers who come back from war and one has PTSD and the other doesn't, do you chastise the latter soldier for somehow being more callous? Of course not! If Angel and Spike not responsible for their soulless crimes, then it's pointless to dwell on it. If Spike's able to move on from it, then fine.

However, subjectively, this isn't the case. Both of them see themselves and the same Cartesian individuals whether they have a soul or not. If this isn't the truth, then, well there is no nobility or lack of virtue here, just delusion and or ignorance. Angel doesn't just *feel* guilty, he believes he is guilty, there is a difference.

The quandary of the soul and personal identity is a tricky one and I'll (unsuccessfully) attempted to simplify it in the past. So this leads me to believe that the question of guilt and responsibility is open to debate and even Angel himself admitted that.

I don't mind Angel feeling guilty and lost (I've always related to him in that way), but we need to realize is that guilt isn't always noble. Sometimes it can selfish, indulgent and destructive. I think even Angel on some level understood this, because in Season 4 he states he didn't feel guilty for what he did as Angelus. Why? In my personal opinion, it's because bigger things were happening and he didn't have time to get into a debate about it. It was very pointed when he used "Angelus" instead of "I", but he was still able to move past his guilt and fight the good fight.

Angel's curse wasn't just about regaining his soul, and feeling all the guilt and regret associated with it, it was the rejection and belittlement, in that most formative time, of the most important person in his life at that time.

Agreed. Personal identity goes beyond souls and demons for these two and that is where the existential element comes in, ironically, perhaps more for Angel. The soul and the demon provide them with impulses, but the subject must not only chose who they are and how they relate to the world, but also what importance they place upon issues of moral issues or even if something should be a moral issue. How they struggle against the world, themselves and the meaning they create for themselves, for me is the real fun of their journey.

Spike's reward wasn't just about the soul that he had won, it was also about the acceptance, support, encouragement, and the love of the most important person in his world.

However, what I'd hoped is that Spike would grow beyond that. He wouldn't be able to keep singing that same song, because time moves on. Time requires us to meet the challenges it brings upon us. Even for Spike, it will continue to be a journey of self-discovery...

 

[bespangeled]

I just re-watched the fight sequence. There is no "slashed to ribbons," unless that's what you call one cut on the arm each. Buffy does much more kicking than cutting, and she is staring right at Angel when his eyes light up. The only way that she could have missed it would have been if she was blind. Yes, she realizes that she is now facing Angel, and the reason for that realization is his reaction to what has just happened, whether she actually knows about Willow's spell or not.

It was obvious - and it's not really any different from the normal inhabitant of this body. Buffy could rely on both perception and memory. This wasn't a new side to Angel(us) that she had never witnessed.

Like you, I have no idea just why Spike originally tried to hide the fact that he had regained his soul. I thought at first that he was waiting to get Buffy alone somewhere and tell her before anyone else found out. His reaction to Anya made it seem that he was somehow afraid of letting anyone know.

I think he just didn't feel the soul was anywhere near enough, and he didn't want to put that pressure on Buffy. Spike wanted to make reparation for hurting Buffy. Of course, he was minimally sane too. And Buffy just let him go back to the basement of crazy because she had no reason to deal with him for another several weeks. It really isn't until a third of the way into the season that Spike takes a consistent role in the season.

By the time of Season 7, Angel would have been in possession of his soul for far longer than most men will ever live, and the accumulated experiences of those decades have formed what his personality will be. By comparison, Spike's soul is like that of a newborn (I don't agree with the idea the Angel has Liam's soul and Spike has William's by the way, because that would involve dragging a human soul out of whatever reward or punishment that it had earned while alive. I believe that both Angel and Spike had souls specifically matched to their own vampire beings)

 

[thetopher]

So she recognizes souled Angel - of course she would - she's known him since the beginning of her time in Sunnydale. She didn't recognize when he had lost his soul - the only reason Angelus could destroy her is that she still believed he was Angel. She didn't recognize that Spike was soulled because she had never seen him souled.

My point was really not the initial recognition, it's that Buffy knew by S3 'Amends' the difference between Angel and Angelus. She hates one and loves the other.
In contrast by S10 of the comics Buffy clearly doesn't know the difference between chiped Spike and soulled Spike- she had sex with one, but was 'intimate' with the other. She blurs and whitewashes and excuses- that's my point.

But why shouldn't both get credit for all of it. Why shouldn't the good either did be counted as part of the package. Both did good and evil when souled and when not. Or is the problem that you feel it's not fair that Spike did more good than Angel did when he didn't have a soul?

See, this is the double standard that I most often see with Spike fans.
If you treat Spike and Angel as seperate people soulless and soulled you can't say soulled Spike didn't didn't attempt to rape Buffy, but he did protect Dawn- that's having it both ways. Like Buffy you're talking the good and then hand-waving away the bad because 'that wasn't really them', It's a dishonest arguement.

Angelus didn't do a single good thing in his existance as far as I can see- he sadistically tormented innocents, created the monster that is Drusilla and was basically so unpleasent that other vampires didn't really didn't like to be around him. He was cruel anti-social bully, others might've admired him, but only Darla and co. it seems could be in his company for any length of time.

But I do hold Angel accoutable for the bad things he did- feeding off evil people when he was still with Darla, leaving those Hyperion guests to die in the 50's, letting evil W&H lawyers die an ironic death at the hands of their own scheme. In context we see these bad, morally murky actions as understandable but still wrong- that's the strength of his show and his character.
It's a balance; Angel has done far more good soulled than Spike has so far- is not really even close, but he's also done many more bad things, on his own show and in the comics. That's why I reference the comics by the way- they're canon.

You know the missing piece is that chipped Spike was different from demon Spike before the soul even came along. It makes it more difficult to compare vamps.

Ah, not really. Chipped Spike was still a monster. As soon as he thought the chip wasn't working in 'Smashed' the first thing he did was go out and try and murder someone. For all his claims of being 'reformed' or 'changed' he hadn't really- he just loved Buffy instead of Drusilla, that's not much of a change.

The visual of lolita!Buffy and a rather skeevy looking Angel does disturb me - as does his checking her out from a car window, and looking in Buffy's windows.

Sorry but this is projecting. Whistler has told Angel to go and see the new slayer being called, not to leer at a fifteen year old. He might've thought that she was beautiful (I'm sure lots of viewers did) but he didn't act on romantic feelings until much later on.

Whether he left Hemery at the same time as Buffy makes no difference - they end up in the same place. That really is stalking, even though he means well.

No, stalking has a personal, obsessive component- also it requires y'know following somebody around.. What we're seeing is Angel being given a purpose, a job if you will, by somebody who plucked him up off the streets and said 'you wanna do good? Then go help her.'
Sure Angel liked Buffy, there were romantic feelings but its Buffy that makes the first move.

Like going in her room to warn her - you can still knock on the window, or wait for permission to enter. That's at least what most women prefer. He did need to tell her those things but didn't need to b&e to do it.

Again, twice isn't a stalker pattern. And maybe if Buffy had shown, I don't know, ANY alarm at this, then maybe it would've been a issue. If Buffy didn't have a problem with it then why is he stalking her?

Again no comics - the author may net read them either. But, why this insistence that anything Angel did, Spike did more and worse?

Maybe its the 'I hold them to the same standard'- the author of this article accuses Angel of stalking Buffy- which requires a personal/obsessive/romantic component to it, and then ignores the fact that about 50% of Spike's actions towards Buffy unsoulled or soulled have consisted of stalking her. It's silly.

I'd say both stalked Buffy at different times and for different reasons. You seem to say that Angel never stalked Buffy and besides he had good reasons, which is confusing.

I said that the evindence of him stalking her is 'projecting' other motives/emotions than the ones shown on to his actions. In the beginning he's helping her, there are no romantic intentions until Buffy makes that first move. Even after that he stays away from her until S2
The only time I can remember Angel actually stalking Buffy was in S4 'Pangs' and she then goes to LA and rightly chastises him for it.

Okay - not sure why Harmony should be staked for being shallow and utilitarian - and as far as I know she never got a soul.

As was comparing Harmony to soulless Spike in S4- basically there is no logical reason for this person not to be staked. And also for most of S7 Spike is more a liability than a help- he's not useful but because of Spuffy he's kept around.

Obviously we disagree her and have all along. And the victim act - shared by both vamps at different times.

I don't remember Angel blaming anybody but himself for the actions of Angelus, never mind his own bad calls. Yes, he broods like an emo/goth but he does actually have reasons for doing so- it's not pretense. It's not 'I'm a victim so love me.'
Spike barely ever acknowledges that there are victims other than himself that have suffered for his vampirism. It's only until 'Damage' that he shows some growth away from this fundementally selfish outlook.

And here I thought you liked AtS season 5 Spike.

Yeah he's okay, fun because he plays off different characters and because of his relationship with Angel, but his character flaws are still all present and correct. 😉

That's wonderful, and the show really allows you to see him grow. There was no spin off for Ripper, for Faith, for Spike, for anyone else in the 'verse. Does that make them lesser beings? Or is it - my vampire is better than your vampire, cuz, I do consider both to be mine.

I don't see that much character growth for Spike in the comics, the writers don't seem to know what to do with him. Contrast that with Faith's character growth, or Giles development in his relationships or the shit load that Angel has been through (good and bad)
It shows the shortsightedness of doing what they did with Spike's character in Buffy S7- they had him 'evolve' too quickly so he come be 'what Buffy needed' and then he dies in 'Chosen'. He wasn't meant to come back but they brought him back anyway for Angel (where he was better) and now...he's just around

 

[Silverspike]

"but his character flaws are still all present and correct"

Oh good. I am pleased, cos thats how I like him personally. 😀

 

[thetopher]

Oh good. I am pleased, cos thats how I like him personally.

It's so nice that unrepentant sociopaths have groupies too. 😀

 

[EVIL UU]

I don't see that much character growth for Spike in the comics

I disagree. I can't imagine season 7 Spike say something like I can't get jerked around no more and I ain't here to play puppy dog to the slayer and bloody hell woman, it ain't all about you. Sometimes a vampire wants a pint. See you later. I think that Spike changed.

unrependant sociopaths

As if that's a bad thing. We already have one brooding asshole with a perpetual redemption arc.

 

[thetopher]

I disagree. I can't imagine season 7 Spike say something like I can't get jerked around no more and I ain't here to play puppy dog to the slayer and bloody hell woman, it ain't all about you. Sometimes a vampire wants a pint. See you later. I think that Spike changed.

Yep, Spike's one defining character trait- his love of Buffy- has evolved. Doesn't make him any less shallow.

As if that's a bad thing. We already have one brooding asshole with a perpetual redemption arc.

Then compare him to Wesley, or Faith, or hell even Willow then- people who have struggled with their darkness, confronted it and in the process been profoundly changed by it- because they have humanity/a conscience. That. to me, is telling.