More threatening? William The Bloody or Angelus?

[ChaseRules]

But Angelus was more into mind games . I sure if he had been threaten then he would have left instead of challenging it / them

 

[Priceless]

In the flashbacks Spike is shown to be much more volatile, attacking Slayers and not caring whether he lives or dies, but in S2 Angelus is shown as the one who wants to end the world, and therefore himself. I think this must have been his reaction to being trapped for so many years.

But why Spike has become so enamoured by the world and by continuinig his life, which is opposite to the Spike we see in the flashbacks, is harder to understand. I put it down to the Buffy-effect, but that's only me thinking aloud 🙂

 

[Sternbeeere]

Isn't that kind of a false dichotomy? Aren't there people who are kind, moral caring, have someone or something to lose who are also rebels who are physically stong and/or strong minded? Arguably Buffy herself fits this bill and Angelus was not only a threat to her but also everything she holds dear, the net result of which is arguably worse than Spike has threatened.

I am well aware that there are people who have both qualities. That is also why both Spike and Angelus showed interest into her. And yeah additionally Angelus is a bigger threat generally, if one considers that he might go for the people his actual target hold dear. But then Spike might do that too, for the rush or for the fact that he might kill more people at once.
 

But Angelus was more into mind games

This would make him even more dangerous by the way. Since mind games can cause things worse than death to certain people.

 

[cryptwarmer]

On the show it was said that his poetry was so bad you'd rather stick a spike through your head. So...it was implied that it was just as likely that is how he got that nickname , as it was that he tortured victims.

Probably a change in heart for the writers when the character was brought back to the show. In S2 Spike was supposed to be super bad, so he was William the Bloody and Spike the torturer...later when they want him to be a nice guy under it all...we find out he was a bad poet and a loser with women. Certainly NOT how he was portrayed when the writers planned on killing him off early.

 

[ChaseRules]

Agree . We first saw him as just evil like Angelus was but when he came back we saw a softer side to Spike

 

[black cat]

I would say that Angelus is something not easy to talk about, because he is tremendous, terrific, psyco, very scary, but at the same time he is a very interesting character with many sided that you will never know.... More you know Angelus less you can understand about his mind and true purpose... It's like a nightmare came true, because he is able to understand and anticipate every move like a "computer"...😱

Spike, in my opinion, has an excellent intuition/insightfullness, but it seems that every step forward that makes he remains "at the same level"..... He can be as Angelus or more: Spike has a lot of "potencial" but it would be interesting see him not only "as the slave of the passions" and seeing " changes" not thanks to external events ( as faith) but it would be interesting see a Spike with more personal ambitions and self introspection ( less contrast Spike/Angelus as Faith/Buffy, but more "Spike as Spike" and no Spike would be or why is not/as Angelus/Angel? Same thing with Faith/Buffy or every character that must be as Buffy😕.... 🙄

Angelus is more threatening 😎

 

[wickedtiger86]

Yeah. I think Angelus is more threatening. Even in just the idea that he'll spend a lot more time threatening before he kills you. Months of planning and creating paranoia in his victims.

Spike is just too impatient for all that. Like is School Hard. Couldn't wait a couple days and instead trashed the parent night.

And I'd always thought Spike got his name because he went back and killed that guy. The one that said he'd rather have a railroad spike in his head than hear any more of William's poetry.

Spike just accommodated that wish?

Hmm. This is a fairly disturbing thread. Lol

 

[ChaseRules]

You just now figured it out ? 😛

 

[white avenger]

Not really that easy a question to answer, since it's an apples to oranges comparison.

Spike is the greatest obvious threat, but Angelus is the more dangerous of the two.

Spike attacks like a charging freight train and strikes like a Viking Berserker with a bad hangover. You can see him coming, but you are really hard pressed to be able to run fast enough, or hide well enough, to escape him if he really wants you. Death comes like a lightning strike, so fast that you might never even realize that you're dead before ...well...you die.

Angelus is as subtle as a stalking cat and as subtle as a striking King Cobra. He plots, lures you in, then strikes, when you are at your weakest. Death is assured, but it will actually be a relief, simply because it will make the pain and suffering finally quit.

 

[Sternbeeere]

Angelus is as subtle as a stalking cat and as subtle as a striking King Cobra. He plots, lures you in, then strikes, when you are at your weakest. Death is assured, but it will actually be a relief, simply because it will make the pain and suffering finally quit.

That is why I consider him being the bigger threat. I mean normally no one wants to die (at least not when not -suicidal or not extremely ill and suffering a lot) and death is scary in the context of Angelus or Spike, but given the choice, I think it is easier to die fast and not knowing until you are death than going through what Angelus would put a person through.

 

[GoSpuffy]

Angelus, definitely.

I also find it funny how Spike got his nickname from his preferred method of torture, yet we never actually see him torture anybody.

he hired a vamp to torture Angel for the gem of amara, that sort of counts as him being the torturer. Spike has more social skills than Angelus. He's more likely to find the best torturer for the job than do it himself. Similar to when he hired those 4 assassins to kill buffy. I forget their names, it was the show we first met Kendra.
 
I see Angelus as being stronger and more evil but Spike has unpredictability. He also has that under dog trait that lets him dig deep and win against all odds, like when he won the Shanshu fight against Angel. Never underestimate unpredictability as a threateninig quality.

 

[thetopher]

Angelus is way scarier. Spike will just kill you- if he's so inclined- but if Angelus targets you he'll terrorize you, kill you family, mutilate your dog, murder your friends and THEN kill you.

You could almost have a beer with Spike, but even other vampires/evil things don't really like Angelus.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Spike gets beat up by humans, kittens and puppets. He couldn't intimdate a 5th grader out of his lunch money. Maybe pre-retcon, old school Spike could intimidate someone. Later Seasons rewritten Spike gets his ass handed to him by everyone, inclding puppets.

So I'll go with Angelus, well his BtVS version anyway. Watered down because we can't have Angel have more blood on his hands because he has his own show now Angelus is all talk and no action lameness.

 

[Samuel Reyes]

You could almost have a beer with Spike

Spike always did seem friendlier than the average vamp. It was fake friendliness, of course, but at least he would occasionally try to make death accommodating (as accommodating as death can be), such as when he gave Willow the choice to either die there or die and become like him.

 

[InsectDirigible]

Angelus, but mostly just because of the preference for more intricate, prolonged psychological torture as some others have stated.
I believe Spike would kill any family and friends who just so happened to be present, and maybe draw it out if that particular situation were convenient for it, but he doesn't have a fixation on tracking people down and coming up with plans like Angelus does.

Angelus, definitely.

I also find it funny how Spike got his nickname from his preferred method of torture, yet we never actually see him torture anybody.

Very true. All his kills were very quick. I am sure his nickname comes from his bad poetry, not his killing skills

Depending on whether or not you consider Spike: Asylum canon, he's been shown to torture people in the short-term. There's a flashback scene where we see him standing over a group of three bloody girls with the text "I drained the entire room, and read their damn diaries to them as they whimpered for help."
Not really grand or intricate, but it would have taken some sadistic time and dedication to keep three girls alive and coherent long enough to have them listen to him read through three different diaries...

For what it's worth, the railroad spike history is listed on the Buffy Wikia, and it's in School Hard that we get the railroad spike background from Giles: "Our new friend Spike. [Reading from the diary] 'Known as William the Bloody, earned his nickname by torturing his victims with railroad spikes…'"

 

[Stoney]

I think being a meal for either would be pretty damn horrific. Spike in S7 Never Leave Me made it clear the kind of damage he used to take joy in when he is distressed talking to Buffy about his soulless kills - "Do you know how much blood you can drink from a girl before she'll die? I do. You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they'll still cry when you— (chokes up) 'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry." That and the carriage scene in Destiny with the bride there as he/Angel talk of the vicious devastation they caused at the wedding and Spike's later assumption Angel was raping her when he returned, although it turned out to be a more than willing Dru, make it clear how casual they would both be about doing more than just physically hurting their victims. Sure, they also killed swiftly rather than for entertainment, as per Angel killing outside his apartment when he very first lost his soul or Spike killing in the school, but I still think what they might consider an average 'fun' f*** and feed would be horrendous. However I agree that if you caught Angel's attention and he wanted to take his time with you then it would be worse. Basically because I think all of the above could be rained down on you but he would also pull you apart and devastate you in any way he could conceive before all of that. Holtz's wife 'only' suffered the former 'fun' violations and then death, but it was all part of what Angel/Darla were doing to Holtz himself. Soulless vamps are, you know, not nice! 😀

I thought 'Spike' came from a joke about someone would rather be stabbed by a railroad spike than listen to Williams poetry? I might be remembering this wrong as I haven't seen it for a while. Though I do also rememeber Giles talking about the railroad spikes, so I'm not sure about this one. 🙂

Spike gave himself the moniker, as has been said, he told Angel he was going by that now but I think it was clear that he was referencing back to having tortured with railroad spikes and, yes, I think it is also implied that happened in response to the comment about his poetry at the party. No doubt he successfully 'taught' the guy that listening to the poetry was in fact infinitely preferable!

Agree . We first saw him as just evil like Angelus was but when he came back we saw a softer side to Spike

I don't think we saw a softer side to Spike later on. We saw that side to him as soon as Dru walked into the room in School Hard. We saw it repeatedly from S2, such as Buffy knowing she could use his devotion against him in Lie to Me when threatening Dru and we also then saw it in his jealousy of Angel which resulted in the truce. Learning about William just gave background to that side and also why Spike has always been inclined to strive to defy authority and expectations and work to create a desired image and persona for himself, determinedly attempting to push away from who he was. Of course, what is always entertaining about that is it only rejects what weaknesses he wants to shun and yet is also then still formed by them. He can never shake off who he was. Just the same for Angel who wanted to prove himself to his father (I *love* the scene with Darla at the end of The Prodigal) and he stays hampered by his pride souled or soulless.

 

[Priceless]

For what it's worth, the railroad spike history is listed on the Buffy Wikia, and it's in School Hard that we get the railroad spike background from Giles: "Our new friend Spike. [Reading from the diary] 'Known as William the Bloody, earned his nickname by torturing his victims with railroad spikes…'"

I think that's what everyone believes, but later in a flash back we here a Victorian gent at a party say Williams poetry was so bloody awful it was like having a spike drilled through his head, or he'd rather have spike through his head than listen to anymore of his poetry. Wish I could remember the episode! Anyone help?

 

[Stoney]

It is in Fool for Love and yes, as I say I do think that that is related. But it is likely why Spike took a railroad spike to his victims and we can probably assume that included some of those that mocked him at the party. Spike chose to take the moniker himself though so it seems likely that it is tied to both the mockery and his signatured response in killing like that which prompted him to choose it. Spike's persona, his image was one he was fighting for against the mockery and humiliation William experienced and so it makes sense that the origination of his choice of weapon, from the mockery, and using it to kill with was tied for him in his successful departure from being weak William and is why he chose for his name.

 

[InsectDirigible]

I think that's what everyone believes, but later in a flash back we here a Victorian gent at a party say Williams poetry was so bloody awful it was like having a spike drilled through his head, or he'd rather have spike through his head than listen to anymore of his poetry. Wish I could remember the episode! Anyone help?

Yep:

FEMALE PARTYGOER
Have you heard, they call him
"William the Bloody" because
of his bloody awful poetry.

MALE PARTYGOER
It suits him. I'd rather have a
railroad spike through my head
than listen to that awful stuff...​

So "William the Bloody" was originally a nickname used to mock him when he was human. That's already an indication that he embraces a term used to berate him in his human life, turning it around and using it as a testament to how violent he is. He's not remembered throughout history for being "William the Bloody Awful Poet" due to it being used as an insult during the short time that he was human.
The implication for "Spike" would seem to be that he was aware of the insult and wanted to reclaim it - or he just thought it'd be funny, who knows - by making the guy eat his words and actually killing him/others with a railroad spike. However the big difference between "William the Bloody" and "Spike" is that one didn't exist until after he became a soulless vampire, so one didn't even originate until after a point where he wouldn't exactly be reading poetry to these people any longer.

"Spike" didn't exist until he made it himself and then seemingly made it notorious through acts of violence. Both were owed to terms used to insult him that he turned into representations of his ruthlessness, not his bad poetry. Technically William the Bloody originated as a reference to his poetry, but "Spike" didn't exist until later and I don't think he'd have any reason to call himself that unless he'd 'redeemed' the idea behind it.

 

[Priceless]

@Stoney and @InsectDirigible are probably right about Spike, but it also makes me wonder about an alternative view. Could this be a case of the Spike simply taking on the name, as you say, to own it, 'redeem' it. But that doesn't mean he actually killed anyone with a railroad spike, it could just mean that watchers miscontrued his name. He was a vampire, he was evil, he called himself Spike, therefore 2+2 equal 5 and it must mean he kills people with railroad spikes. Those watchers couldn't possible know where the name really came from.

I also wonder why a vampire would use a tool to kill, when Spike tells Buffy that the slayer always has to reach for a weapon, while he always has his.