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No Means No – A Look At Victim Blaming In the Buffyverse Fandom

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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He is a serial killer who takes gleeful pleasure in murdering people and unlike Angel has not got the one thing that changes this enough for it to be OK. The chip is not a soul.
The thing with Angel's soul though is that it can be removed and when that happens Angel turns into Angelus and "takes gleeful pleasure in murdering people". Whilst a soul and the chip are two different things, they're still basically preventing Angel and Spike acting on their nature. The whole "he has a soul" excuse doesn't wipe away all the things that Spike and Angel did in their past.
 
Myheadsgonenumb
Myheadsgonenumb
I think the difference is Angel with a soul doesn't want to kill people - though he could, Spike with a chip still does - he just can't. Angel is good man who could turn bad, Spike is a vicious dog in a muzzle.

katmobile

Scooby
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The thing with Angel's soul though is that it can be removed and when that happens Angel turns into Angelus and "takes gleeful pleasure in murdering people". Whilst a soul and the chip are two different things, they're still basically preventing Angel and Spike acting on their nature. The whole "he has a soul" excuse doesn't wipe away all the things that Spike and Angel did in their past.
Your last statement is a debatable one - are they really the same people?
 

DeadlyDuo

Scooby
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Your last statement is a debatable one - are they really the same people?
That's the thing, the soul canon isn't really consistent. Angel and Angelus are presented as two different identities whilst Spike is presented as one identity regardless of if he's souled or not.
 

katmobile

Scooby
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That's the thing, the soul canon isn't really consistent. Angel and Angelus are presented as two different identities whilst Spike is presented as one identity regardless of if he's souled or not.
There's a through a glass darkly narrative to vampires that is consistent. I agree to an extent but Angel/Angelus being a switch and Spike being a continuum is a result of their differing personalities leading to the differing circumstances of their ensoulement.

Also relevent to this is Buffy thinks of them both as different with and without a soul and that's relevant because it explains the forgiveness that so many seem to think is a character flaw especially as some are peed off that it isn't extended to Faith in the same way at least not at first.
 

Priceless

Scooby
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Could it be argued that the versions of Angel and Spike we see on screen are simply Buffy's view of them and it's she who sees Angel/Angelus as two different people, and Spike as doing 'good' deeds prior to getting a soul? Ni ether vampire is seen as they really are, they are only seen through Buffy's eyes?
 
TriBel
TriBel
Can I get back to you on that? My initial response is yes and no...it's kinda complicated... :D

katmobile

Scooby
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Could it be argued that the versions of Angel and Spike we see on screen are simply Buffy's view of them and it's she who sees Angel/Angelus as two different people, and Spike as doing 'good' deeds prior to getting a soul? Ni ether vampire is seen as they really are, they are only seen through Buffy's eyes?
That's a bit meta for me.
 
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