Not Fade Away: Did You Like It?
- Thread starter The Ferg
- Start date
BlasterBoy606
Big Damn Hero
Of course! I loved it! Sure, the Black Thorn thing came out of basically nowhere, but it was such a beautiful episode. I loved all of the character's "last days", and Illyria's lie to Wesley was really touching. I was mad that Wes and Gunn died, mostly because basically EVERYONE ELSE in the season died, but I guess it was okay, since it was the last eppy. The last scene, the fights, Lindsay, Connor and Hamilton, Harmony's last scene, Eve, it was all fantastic in this eppy. An awesome way to end the series: loved it, in my top 3 episodes of Angel, easy.
Lindsey McDonald
Spirit Boy
In general, I loved it. The Blackthorn thing was rushed, but when you know the circumstances it's understandable. A wonderful little pull together of a lot of seemingly random enemies.
However. There is a but. And it's a huge one. The treatment of Lindsey.
Now I don't mind that he died. I'd rather he didn't, but it was very well done. Sending Lorne to kill him was a stroke of genius. But the whole thing was inherently flawed. Angel had no real motivation to have Lindsey killed. It just didn't make sense. It was like if Buffy had suddenly turned around and killed Spike halfway through Season 5. If he'd had a real cause, then that would have been more satisfying. The whole point of Lindsey was that he was ultimately as toothless as ChippedSpike was. Angel killed a soldier, and that was just so out of character. But that I can forgive.
What I really have come to loathe is the laziness when dealling with Lindsey's last day. I mean come on. Eve? Eugh. He was using her to get at Angel, but now suddenly we're supposed to believe it's love?
Lindsey would be playing his guitar, singing, and drinking bourbon.
Oh, but, wait, we've already got Lorne singing and drinking, and Spike reading poetry and drinking. Lindsey must lose out.
Right, fine. The next biggest thing in his life is Wolfram and Hart. Could we not have had him wandering the halls, seeing how much everything has changed? SPEAKING TO LILAH?!?
No. We get Eve. Because there's is obviously a miraculous love. So damn miraculous it materialized out of nowhere at the most convenient opportunity.
So, that's my beef with Not Fade Away. I love the episode, I'm amazed by it when you consider the circumstances, but Lindsey really got screwed over.
And don't even get me started on the Langel implications...
However. There is a but. And it's a huge one. The treatment of Lindsey.
Now I don't mind that he died. I'd rather he didn't, but it was very well done. Sending Lorne to kill him was a stroke of genius. But the whole thing was inherently flawed. Angel had no real motivation to have Lindsey killed. It just didn't make sense. It was like if Buffy had suddenly turned around and killed Spike halfway through Season 5. If he'd had a real cause, then that would have been more satisfying. The whole point of Lindsey was that he was ultimately as toothless as ChippedSpike was. Angel killed a soldier, and that was just so out of character. But that I can forgive.
What I really have come to loathe is the laziness when dealling with Lindsey's last day. I mean come on. Eve? Eugh. He was using her to get at Angel, but now suddenly we're supposed to believe it's love?
Lindsey would be playing his guitar, singing, and drinking bourbon.
Oh, but, wait, we've already got Lorne singing and drinking, and Spike reading poetry and drinking. Lindsey must lose out.
Right, fine. The next biggest thing in his life is Wolfram and Hart. Could we not have had him wandering the halls, seeing how much everything has changed? SPEAKING TO LILAH?!?
No. We get Eve. Because there's is obviously a miraculous love. So damn miraculous it materialized out of nowhere at the most convenient opportunity.
So, that's my beef with Not Fade Away. I love the episode, I'm amazed by it when you consider the circumstances, but Lindsey really got screwed over.
And don't even get me started on the Langel implications...
The Ferg
Wow, I never thought of Lindsey's last day like that. Then again, I watched S5 before S1 and S2, so I didn't really get it. The W&H thing would've been great btw.
laianna
I barely even spared Lindsey a thought. You're right. A walk through W&H would have been a good idea.
C
captain peroxide
Killing of Lindsey was stupid,he deseved better
Oh, come on, Langel's so funny!!
I loved the ep, it was beautiful and touching and it holds the single most emotion filled line in the entire series: "Would you like me to lie to you now?"
Gut wrenching.
I get Lindsey's beef with, well, Lindsey, lol. I hated that he died, I loved Lindsey. the wway he died was great, and so unexpected, even Christian Kane himself was surprised by Lorne killing Lindsey. (And he was more than a little annoyed as well, lol) But I agree that Angel had no real motive, only what Lindsye might be capable of in the future. There's no proof that Lindsey would have done anything.
I was annoyed that they killed so many people in this season, but I understand why they thought they needed to, I think.
I loved how Connor came back to help Angel. That's the best bit of the ep for me. Connor finally accepting who he is and that Angel is a part of him, whether he likes it or not. And him stepping up and coming to help Angel was great for me, lol.
I loved the ep, it was beautiful and touching and it holds the single most emotion filled line in the entire series: "Would you like me to lie to you now?"
Gut wrenching.
I get Lindsey's beef with, well, Lindsey, lol. I hated that he died, I loved Lindsey. the wway he died was great, and so unexpected, even Christian Kane himself was surprised by Lorne killing Lindsey. (And he was more than a little annoyed as well, lol) But I agree that Angel had no real motive, only what Lindsye might be capable of in the future. There's no proof that Lindsey would have done anything.
I was annoyed that they killed so many people in this season, but I understand why they thought they needed to, I think.
I loved how Connor came back to help Angel. That's the best bit of the ep for me. Connor finally accepting who he is and that Angel is a part of him, whether he likes it or not. And him stepping up and coming to help Angel was great for me, lol.
E
EvilWillow77
I really love the way Connor got to become just a normal guy that really understood why Angel did what he did. Helped end that whole deal in a more positive way.
Lindsey McDonald
Spirit Boy
Perhaps I should have phrased that better - the implications against Langel were what annoyed me. Namely, Leve becoming a serious Ship. I love the Langel ship, and I really do think that a misunderstood desire for Angel made up a part of Lindsey's obsession - but that's for another thread. Suffice to say, Lindsey's last day flew in the face of that as well as everything else they ever established about the character.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
After his memorable resignation from W&H (one of the greatest scenes in the whole series), the writers seemed to lose the thread of Lindsey's character. I wasn't in love with how they disposed of him. I thought it was a disservice to the characters of Lindsey, Lorne, and Angel.
Characters die. Even very good characters die. This is a reality that Joss Whedon fans especially become grimly aware of. But the character death should serve the story and flow naturally from it. Otherwise it ends up looking like, "Hey, another body hits the floor! That oughta get the message boards hopping."
It's the one thing that I consider a true flaw in Whedon's storytelling, at times.
But in general, I liked Not Fade Away. But I would have liked to at least get a look at the Senior Partners. 15 issues into After the Fall, we're STILL waiting.
Characters die. Even very good characters die. This is a reality that Joss Whedon fans especially become grimly aware of. But the character death should serve the story and flow naturally from it. Otherwise it ends up looking like, "Hey, another body hits the floor! That oughta get the message boards hopping."
It's the one thing that I consider a true flaw in Whedon's storytelling, at times.
But in general, I liked Not Fade Away. But I would have liked to at least get a look at the Senior Partners. 15 issues into After the Fall, we're STILL waiting.
E
EvilWillow77
I loooove what I call the "Evil Hand" scene where Lindsey leaves W&H!! My very favorite scene from Angel
disturbedvanity
Five by Five
I loved the build-up. And how they each had their own mission. I was extremely pissed off at the end where they banded together to fight and then END OF SHOW!!! wtf was up with that? Irritated me immensely. Never got into the comics, so I'm not sure if they reference it, but does anyone know what happens in that final battle? Message me if you know and I'll love you forever and ever! <3
Friendly Lurker
Scooby
I loved the episode but even thinking about Wesley dying still makes me all sad! "Would you like me to lie to you now?" was definitely one of the best lines in the series, especially because I loved Fred and Wesley.
The scene where Lindsey died was also great even if there really wasn't a need for it!
The scene where Lindsey died was also great even if there really wasn't a need for it!
Anya2012
Floppy, hoppy, bunnies!
A
atticus
Guest
I liked parts of it, but i like my old school angel, so it was sad for me to see very new characters like Illyria and Spike, given quite a lot of the story. In Chosen, i love the moment when Xander, Buffy, Willow and Giles talk in the hall. A full circle moment. I guess, i always thought Angel would end with Cordy, Wesley and Angel together, about to face the big fight. A shame 🙁
I didn't really like it. But I can't say that I hated it either, NFA was kinda dull, escecially the last scene, I mean, hello??? wtf were they thinking?? ( or not thinking in that case)???
Oh yeah and Angels last line was so dumb, honestly!! ( quote: "me personally? I'll slay the dragon") man, are you for real???
And Lindsey,...I'm so not gonna go there, but still... Eve??? Of all people???
That Connor helped him was kinda cool,...but that was probably the only thing on the last episode that I really liked.
and I'm gonna shut up now, cause I could go on for hours about this.
Oh yeah and Angels last line was so dumb, honestly!! ( quote: "me personally? I'll slay the dragon") man, are you for real???
And Lindsey,...I'm so not gonna go there, but still... Eve??? Of all people???
That Connor helped him was kinda cool,...but that was probably the only thing on the last episode that I really liked.
and I'm gonna shut up now, cause I could go on for hours about this.
I agree Shayla. The last episode was soo stupid.
HHAHA yes the last line was retarded as well but it goes along with the theme of the episode if you know what I mean. 😉 I wasn't a fan of the Connor help. I think the one part I liked was when Illyria turned into Fred when Wesley died. But I found it ridiculous that Gunn so easily staked all those vamps at the little political office, and
that something as "big" as the black thorn wasn't found out until the last...what? three episodes? and then brought down in ONE. Plus the Lorne killing Lindsey was the stupidest piece of television I've ever seen, right after in season three when Angel carried around that fake baby everywhere.
HHAHA yes the last line was retarded as well but it goes along with the theme of the episode if you know what I mean. 😉 I wasn't a fan of the Connor help. I think the one part I liked was when Illyria turned into Fred when Wesley died. But I found it ridiculous that Gunn so easily staked all those vamps at the little political office, and
that something as "big" as the black thorn wasn't found out until the last...what? three episodes? and then brought down in ONE. Plus the Lorne killing Lindsey was the stupidest piece of television I've ever seen, right after in season three when Angel carried around that fake baby everywhere.
BlasterBoy606
Big Damn Hero
But, if they did that, don't you think that would've been way too cheesy? I would've HATED if it ended like that. Sure, I'm wondering what happened to Angel & co., but the message was delivered so well, that for me, it was fine to go out that way.
E
EvilWillow77
I think everyone is a bit bitter that it ended at ALL, so the ending has flaws for everyone. I just think it was moving episode, and I take it for what it's worth.
Revolver
Sir Douche
Really don't get the hate for this episode. Season five is easily my least favorite Angel season but this episode was gold and considering how rushed the ending had to be due to the cancellation, I think its amazing its as good as it is. The ending makes a statement about the series and also somewhat left the door open for Angel and crew to return in some format had Whedon gotten the chance to bring them back. As for Lindsey, hate to say it, but he was always a wildly inconsistant character in terms of writing. The Lindsey we saw in season five was a far different guy then the one we'd last seen in season two. This was never just a problem with this episode, it was a problem with the character in general.
Lindsey McDonald
Spirit Boy
Regarding Lindsey, I really don't think that any changes in his character between S2 and S5 aren't very easily attributable to natural character growth due to the journey he went on. Except for having a serious relationship with Eve. The only real difference in him when he came back was that he was much more self confident - I can see 2 years away from LA, Angel, and Wolfram and Hart giving him that.
Kana
Soulless human
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2007
- Messages
- 1,305
I liked the episode. As it has been said, the apparent ex nihilo Circle of the Black Thorn was attributed to how disjointed the Season was. I agree that it was reminiscent of Season 1 with first half relying more on single episodes rather than solid arc as opposed the second part of the Season which was actually relatively well written.
I actually found the subtle elements of this episode better than some of the main plot points. Anne's message to Gunn parallels with Angel's mission statement of never giving up even in the face of adversity. It really confirmed that being a champion has little to do with status or even measurable achievement but about intent. I found Anne's simple words more effective than Angel's whole plan.
However this episode is not without it's moral quandaries, which rounds off a season riddled with such quandaries. Killing Lindsay not only explores not only Angel's questionable methods of doling out justice but also the supposed danger that Lindsay poses. Now if we assume that Lorne and Angel are at least partly justified then we'd, (or more accurately) I'd assume that Lindsay was going to do something that merited him being killed. Practically speaking Angel would have had to have killed him when he did because he correctly predicted that he would be in a position of less leverage after the events that played out in the episode. So if he was a threat, he had to dealt with when he had the ability to deal with him.
Now the two things already wrong with this is that despite Lindsay's potential, we still don't know what he was going to do and unless it's in self defense or in direct defense of someone else, can we really justify this killing?
LD (our Lindsay lol) comes up with a good point that Lindsay hadn't really done anything yet and was 'screwed' so to speak. This brings up the problem of free will, predestination and the bugger of a problem that is: What exactly does Lorne bloody well read?!!! If Lorne is reading a 'Cassie Newton' style fatalism kind of deal then Angel's intervention was pointless. Lindsay is still going to do whatever he is going to (maybe in a W&H bringy backy sort of deal) and all he did was compromise his morals to do so. It renders the situation more tragic if futures are not fixed and didn't Angel once question Lorne's abilities in this very season and he admitted he could be wrong on that occasion too (when reading Eve). I love how Angel said he faked his whole end justifies the means speech, but with the death of Drogyn and Lindsay we have to wonder...
We are become more or less certain that Lindsay despite leaving W&H craved power and bought into Holland Manner's morality. While potentially this is dangerous we still cannot know how he'd use this power after the TCOBT was destroyed. After Angel's actions, it isn't absurd to think that Lindsay may have used 'dark power' to benefit others even if it were to his own benefit. Other moguls have done so in the past and it rounds up the mixed message (sometimes my favourite kind) of the season. Lindsay was power hungry no doubt, despite his conflicting morals in past seasons. In the end he bought into a belief system and I actually believe Lorne and Angel that it may be hard to sway him from that, but the emphasis on choice in our soulled vampires fighting philosophies (may favourite thing about him apart from his general messed up state of mind), leaves his decision to kill Lindsay rather cold.
I actually found the subtle elements of this episode better than some of the main plot points. Anne's message to Gunn parallels with Angel's mission statement of never giving up even in the face of adversity. It really confirmed that being a champion has little to do with status or even measurable achievement but about intent. I found Anne's simple words more effective than Angel's whole plan.
However this episode is not without it's moral quandaries, which rounds off a season riddled with such quandaries. Killing Lindsay not only explores not only Angel's questionable methods of doling out justice but also the supposed danger that Lindsay poses. Now if we assume that Lorne and Angel are at least partly justified then we'd, (or more accurately) I'd assume that Lindsay was going to do something that merited him being killed. Practically speaking Angel would have had to have killed him when he did because he correctly predicted that he would be in a position of less leverage after the events that played out in the episode. So if he was a threat, he had to dealt with when he had the ability to deal with him.
Now the two things already wrong with this is that despite Lindsay's potential, we still don't know what he was going to do and unless it's in self defense or in direct defense of someone else, can we really justify this killing?
LD (our Lindsay lol) comes up with a good point that Lindsay hadn't really done anything yet and was 'screwed' so to speak. This brings up the problem of free will, predestination and the bugger of a problem that is: What exactly does Lorne bloody well read?!!! If Lorne is reading a 'Cassie Newton' style fatalism kind of deal then Angel's intervention was pointless. Lindsay is still going to do whatever he is going to (maybe in a W&H bringy backy sort of deal) and all he did was compromise his morals to do so. It renders the situation more tragic if futures are not fixed and didn't Angel once question Lorne's abilities in this very season and he admitted he could be wrong on that occasion too (when reading Eve). I love how Angel said he faked his whole end justifies the means speech, but with the death of Drogyn and Lindsay we have to wonder...
We are become more or less certain that Lindsay despite leaving W&H craved power and bought into Holland Manner's morality. While potentially this is dangerous we still cannot know how he'd use this power after the TCOBT was destroyed. After Angel's actions, it isn't absurd to think that Lindsay may have used 'dark power' to benefit others even if it were to his own benefit. Other moguls have done so in the past and it rounds up the mixed message (sometimes my favourite kind) of the season. Lindsay was power hungry no doubt, despite his conflicting morals in past seasons. In the end he bought into a belief system and I actually believe Lorne and Angel that it may be hard to sway him from that, but the emphasis on choice in our soulled vampires fighting philosophies (may favourite thing about him apart from his general messed up state of mind), leaves his decision to kill Lindsay rather cold.
i did like the ending of angel, but not as much as i thought i would. i was devastated that wesley died and devastated that fred died, but i loved the wesley/illyria relationship. i thought lorne killing lindsey was genius (i'm not sure how i feel about his death, but it was genius), and i thought lorne getting out after that final deed was genius. i recently finished watching all five seasons of angel for the first time, and i think the ending ultimately made me really sad. i'm not sure how much of that is because i have no more new buffy or angel material (i haven't gotten into the comics) and it's the end of something that meant and means a lot to me and got me through a lot of shit--the ending was appropriate, i felt, but very...sad. i suppose there was the hopeful message and the "going out fighting" mentality, but then there's the reality behind that, that it rarely works, and that just depressed me. buffy ended on a much more positive note, but buffy as a show in general was not nearly as dark as angel. i think i might prefer angel, in the end. but it depressed the hell out of me haha.
AmongFriends
Townie
"Not Fade Away" was awesome! I get why some people would be upset about Lindsay gettin' capped but it made sense. The man had plenty of opportunities to change and he never took 'em. He wasn't "part of the solution."
Even though they had a very small time to prepare the finale, I thought it tied everything together quite well. Great use of previous villains as members of the Black Thorn. And you can't talk about NFA without talking about the ending. Did I like it? Yeah, I did. The epic shot of Angel and Co. in the rain. The swarm of baddies coming towards them. And in the midst of all this, Angel is excited to kill the dragon. "Lets go to work." *clang!* Good good stuff. Summed up the entire series and whether or they lived or died, they continued to fight.
Even though they had a very small time to prepare the finale, I thought it tied everything together quite well. Great use of previous villains as members of the Black Thorn. And you can't talk about NFA without talking about the ending. Did I like it? Yeah, I did. The epic shot of Angel and Co. in the rain. The swarm of baddies coming towards them. And in the midst of all this, Angel is excited to kill the dragon. "Lets go to work." *clang!* Good good stuff. Summed up the entire series and whether or they lived or died, they continued to fight.
i loved not fade away, it was gr8 the way angel got everything he wanted, connor forgave him, the gang trusted him again, ok he didnt get to be human again, but he saved the world again. everything he wanted. he even had lindsay on his side because he thought it was the right thing to do. and it was having lindsay back was gr8.