Official Discussion of 7.11 "Showtime" (UPN-US)

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It's not that strange.

Holy Water and Christian Crosses could be a countermeasure against vampires, which were naturally not discovered until they came into existence. Maybe vampires can be killed with photonic blasters as well, but we won't know until we have those 😉
 
Oh I see what you're saying. You believe that Christian crosses and Holy Water were discovered, not invented, for lack of better terms.

So you're saying a prehistoric person would have been able to use the cross as a ward against the Neandervamp, even though Jesus, the Catholic Church, and the crucifixtion had not yet existed? I don't understand that, because that symbol would utterly have no meaning to either the vamp or the person. Remember, that's exactly what a cross is--a symbol. If you predate what it's symbolizing, it's just two lines criss-crossed.

Oh well--he's dead now! Maybe there's more? I think they were described as a race of monsters, so probably. Well let's hope for Buffy's sake it'll be a one-at-a-time thing.
 
Originally posted by King Kamehameha
Oh I see what you're saying. You believe that Christian crosses and Holy Water were discovered, not invented, for lack of better terms.
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No, I am saying that they were invented, and were found to be useful against vampires. At least, in the case of Holy Water. I assume that for a vampire to be afraid of a cross, he'd have to know about the christian religion, and what the cross represents.

Then again, the Turok-han didn't have much care for stuff as being invited and hasn't been up against a cross, afaik. The only thing which appeared to work against it was Holy Water. Presumably because it's an Unholy Creature.

Then again, I do agree that it is somewhat of a hole in the plot 😛
 
Well yes, you got my point. But I disagree with you as far as it needing to understand what the symbol represents. Some culture may go and decide a bullet is holy, and well all be dam a bullet will hurt the majority of things out there. Who's to say a religion didn't decide a cross was holy because it had the ability to hurt the un-holy.
 
Originally posted by Stake'em & Smile
Some culture may go and decide a bullet is holy, and well all be dam a bullet will hurt the majority of things out there.
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The difference between a cross and a bullet being that the effectiveness of the bullet is not in the symbolism of what it represents, but in the fact that it's propelled at a high velocity 😉

I'm sure that beating an atheist over the head with a cross will hurt as well 😛
 
Right, it's the SYMBOLISM of the religious icon that hurts, though when Buffy smashed that bottle on Neander's head, that probably hurt, too, eh? So then, if what the symbol represents doesn't exist yet, does the symbol still work?

Maybe the argument is that somehow the cross became effective at some point in history, and effected all things that lived (or un-lived) from then on. I never understood the whole "invite" aspect of vampire lore, but I find it interesting. One good rule of thumb: when in doubt: behead! At least it worked in this episode.
 
Originally posted by King Kamehameha
So then, if what the symbol represents doesn't exist yet, does the symbol still work?
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Not in my opinion. If you'd seen someone with a swastika on their sweater in 1920, you couldn't have cared less, whereas now you might become enraged.

Maybe the argument is that somehow the cross became effective at some point in history, and effected all things that lived (or un-lived) from then on.
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I presume that with the introduction of christianity, possibly with the crucification of Christ, the cross became a symbol that repelled vampires.

It might have something to do with the fact that seeing the cross makes them think of the soul they used to have, which they cannot bear to do. Or something like that 😛
 
hehe who know's, you just gotta realize we're dealing with mystical ideas in a universe contribed in someone's head

It's kinda like arguing over a vampire's anatomy. So ok they don't breath so therefore they don't have breath, yet Spike can smoke. So in some capacity he must have the ability to suck air in? Not to mention in order to animate his body he'd have to have some kind of blood flow yet his heart doesn't beat, so how does his blood flow? and if his blood doesn't flow how does he manage to get it up?

The possibilities go on and on and on. The only plausible and reasonable answer is that since the Buffyverse is indeed a universe in which magic and mysticism exist, these holes can be explained with those ideals.
 
Yes, and if they do not have any functioning organs, where does all the food and drink go? Just rot away inside???

I think this whole discussion got a bit far away from the episode discussion it was supposed to be.
Why don't you guys open a new thread re all these issues and hope that JW and his team will answer some of those questions in the future.
 
Yep you are correct we have been straying off on alot of topics lately lol

I'm not sure the last part of this discussion warrants another topic though. As an admin of several different sites I'd probably just close the topic 🙂 That's up to our wonderful mods though 😉
 
Have either crosses or Holy Water ever killed a vamp on B/A ?

I tried to explain it before, because I believe Spike once mentioned this, it's not the thing itself that hurts them, it's the Faith that the user puts in good, what scares away vamps and other uglyness!
 
Sorry I brought all this up, I just thought it was relevant because the NeanderVamp is strictly season 7, and obviously a vampire predating organized religion is new territory.

So...Kennedy...she's cool, huh?
 
Yes Kennedy is supposed to be the coolest, how lame is that, like nobody can see her being lame 😉

But demons predating organized religion aren't new, and this is not a vamp, but a Turok-Han Demon!
 
I watched the episode again, and I was wondering something...do you the prehistoric vamp is stronger than Glory? Willow's barrier spell worked really well on it (and plus she was pulling her punches), but when she had a barrier up against Glory, Glory just shrugged it aside. Did Willow get a power-up since season 5, or is Glory just stronger? The fight scene at the end of this episode shows the (ex) vampire really clobbering Buffy with some major blows, reminiscent of Glory (to me anyway). Basically, did this ep show that Willow is stronger, or is the NeanderVamp weaker than Glory?
 
I'm going to go off and say Glory is much more powerful than the Turok-han. It is afterall a mere demon, she is a hell god. I have this feeling your questions about Willow and Glory may very well get answered this season.
 
Originally posted by Allycat
Willow intented to let the Turok-Han through!
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Possibly, if she wanted an excuse to help herd the SITs and Andrew into the "Thunder Dome".

(I'd still wager a hell-god is stronger than a NeanderVamp.)
 
the Hellgodess is stronger btw, but Willow letting the Turok-Han through on purpose was obvious. Dawn's exact lines at the end of the episode:

Dawn: "This"”you planned this. Letting the barrier fail, bringing us here, you and Buffy."
 
I cannot remember where in this thread I saw it, but I'll put the kabosh on two theories floating around there.

Theory #1: Giles is The First.
Nope, nada, can't be. If you recall in this eppy "Showtime" he AND Eve shared screen time together. Last I heard, TF can only take on being a dead person....not "people".

My theory on Giles is that he's in England at a safehouse sponsered by the Coven and he's in a Coma. The Coven, as powerful as they are, are able to project him (astrally I suppose) to the U.S. since he has such important work to do.

Theory #2: The voice speaking during the mindtalk of Buffy, Willow and Xander is Dawn!
Again, nope...nada...wrong. I watched the tape last night and the voice of Buffy is definitely SMG. I'm not being flippant, I was raised in radio and learned from my Dad how to discern different voices and sounds. SMG has a distinct lilt to her voice that Michelle does not have.

Okay. Done now. 😛
 
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